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Kagurabachi General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter BasedNecoScaler69
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- kagura_bachi
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While I have some reservations about the implied ability of resurrection, I will say overall these first four to five arcs (or three, not sure how Kagurabachi breaks its arcs apart since the last arc feels like it could've been about three arcs in a trench coat) has been one of the best back to back arcs I've experienced in a manga.
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We're also once again told the use of the Dark Power is the constant normal state for the Magatsumi almost like what we said before is again the case that there's the infinitely malleable forms he can choose to shape his energy in with none being special outside of shaping it for specifc purposes
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Got to thinking about some off our old calcs, the feat where one of the anti-Sojo squad members launching a bunch off ground up into the air as the opening move to fight Sojo.
Current calc uses potential gravitational energy to get AP and assume it happens within 1 second to get speed. However statements in the arc suggests that from the rock being launched to when they landed in the ocean 12km away only 30 seconds or so passed.
Would it be allowed to use that to upgrade its speed and even potentially an AP upgrade based of KE? Or would the timeframe be too speculative and AP part be calc stacking?
Current calc uses potential gravitational energy to get AP and assume it happens within 1 second to get speed. However statements in the arc suggests that from the rock being launched to when they landed in the ocean 12km away only 30 seconds or so passed.
Would it be allowed to use that to upgrade its speed and even potentially an AP upgrade based of KE? Or would the timeframe be too speculative and AP part be calc stacking?
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the ocean was 2km away not 12km so its like subsonic speeds the rock is launched at similar to the calc already but regardless its not a feat anyone scales too since there is no UES for this verse
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Kagurabachi should qualify for it.
The very basis of Sorcery is imbuing it into your body first and then manifesting it outside later. And thanks to the Datenseeki drug we know that the body has to be capable of handling the energy one uses for sorcery and if not its destroyed. The only exception would be Enchanted Blade users because Enchanted Blades are multipliers on one's spirit energy.
Is anyone working on a spirit energy page?
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I wholly disagree, its like almost textbook not one but yes we have a near completed sandbox
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What about it prevents it from being one you think?
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Just to kinda take some of the stuff from it to give an explanation of why its not a UES
Sorcerers ( Yojutsu-shi) are individuals who engage in the practice of Sorcery ( Yōjutsu) through manipulating Spirit Energy. Spirit Energy ( Genryoku) is an energy dwelling within humans similar to their life-force which exists in every single person. It can be used to amplify one's physical prowess and allows sorcerers to use Sorcery ( Yōjutsu).
Spirit energy dwells in all humans, regardless of age and combat capabilities. Due to all humans having spirit energy, the ability to gain superhuman physical abilities and practice sorcery is theoretically available to anyone through sufficient training. Those aiming to utilize spirit energy must train hard in order to better control and harness their spirit energy and increase their spirit energy capacity. The ability to utilize spirit energy is governed by specific neural pathways, and if these pathways are damaged, an individual's ability to use spirit energy and sorcery will be impaired.
Utilizing spirit energy into a unique sword style is referred to as Kata and basic Iai can utilize spirit energy for enhancing one's combat with the Sword
Spirit energy dwells in all humans, regardless of age and combat capabilities. Due to all humans having spirit energy, the ability to gain superhuman physical abilities and practice sorcery is theoretically available to anyone through sufficient training. Those aiming to utilize spirit energy must train hard in order to better control and harness their spirit energy and increase their spirit energy capacity. The ability to utilize spirit energy is governed by specific neural pathways, and if these pathways are damaged, an individual's ability to use spirit energy and sorcery will be impaired.
Basic Sorcerer Abilities
- Superhuman Physical Characteristics and (By training to control their spirit energy, sorcerer's can strengthen their bodies, giving them superhuman mobility and defensive capabilities.)
- Limited Life Manipulation and Energy Manipulation (As the spirit energy that powers sorcery is basically life force, every human is capable of learning sorcery if one “work like a maniac at it”.)
Swordsmanship
An extension to manipulating spirit energy throughout one's body is using it to enhance one's swordsmanship. Following the same principle of physical enhancement, through correctly channeling spirit energy to a sword (which Kuguri describes as imbuing a blade with one's spirit energy and thus merging with it), the power of swordsmanship can be greatly amplified.Utilizing spirit energy into a unique sword style is referred to as Kata and basic Iai can utilize spirit energy for enhancing one's combat with the Sword
Basic Swordsmanship
- Statistics Amplification (Properly channeling spirit energy into a sword increases its attack power)
Now what's important about this and how it shows its not a UES. This essentially is to show that the physical reinforcement performed is separate from the sorcery one has innately and that while a strong body is needed to perform sorcery the power of that sorcery doesn't equally correlate to the power one can exert on their own and in most cases is stronger than their normal physicals.
Physical reinforcement itself whether it be for one's own body or swordplay isn't even solely dependent on the raw amount of spirit energy you have in your body (though through training you can increase the max capacity of spirit energy you have available), the whole basis of it is learning circulation of spirit energy through the body and becoming more and more skilled with that circulation to achieve a higher level of fortification.
- Shiba says fortification is dependent on one's skill with circulation of spirit energy
- Samura say's sword fighting like physical fortification is dependent on one's skill (Referencing circulation of spirit energy) and spirit energy
- Kugiri's fortification is strong comparative to Chihiro's due to having better circulation and being more in-tune with the flow of his spirit this is without the use of his sorcery which we know is much stronger than his own physicals
- Random goons can't use datenseki as effectively since they are unskilled in circulation of spirit energy which allows them to dispatched by Kamunabi Elites who are trained in this
- Kamunabi has training specifically dedicated to increasing one's fortification
Those are just a few examples and again you have to take Shiba's words as he said above that physical reinforcement is its own thing and that "beyond" it is sorcery which shows they require their own things and one's reinforcement doesn't innately scale to their sorcery. To give a some examples of things that are < Physicals, that done via a characters own sorcery
- Shiyumi's Physicals (9-A, Comparable to other Kamunabi elites) - Gansui (8-B)
- Kugiri's fortification (9-A) < Kugiri's twilight wave (8-C~High 8-C with several months buildup, that said we don't know if he actually used all his buildup)
- Yura's blows being able to harm an unamped Chihiro and his athleticism being considered "unreal" by Uruha (9-A)
- Nishki's entire function is based on imbuing all actions equal amounts of spirit energy across the body as a whole increasing one's stats (all punch, kicks, strikes have equal energy) instead of how fortification usually works (Literally makes him function like a UES rather than how he normally would otherwise be)
- Daruma gets cooked by having his explosion reflected back onto himself (both 9-A)
- Hiruhiko being comparable to Chihiro physically when not amped by Nishki yet his sorcery being able to cut Nishki amped Chihiro who is far above his own physicals
- Hiruhiko Physical (9-A) - needs play to destroy the Bloodshed hotel (High 8-C+)
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I feel like this showcases a misunderstanding of what an UES is.
What makes a Universal Energy System a universal energy system is that the same energy is utilized for everything.
Sorcery in Kagurabachi isn't based off of a form of energy separate from Spiritual Power. It is literally just Spiritual Power manifested in a different manner.
And Spiritual Power ends up doing all the extra bells and whistles we add where it does amping of physical stats, a proportional increase with increase of spiritual power, etc.
I feel like Sorcery relying upon the body being strong enough to handle it is one of the reasons which would best support it being UES too. If the toughness of the body was unrelated, then you shouldn't require a strong body in order to preform sorcery.
What makes a Universal Energy System a universal energy system is that the same energy is utilized for everything.
Sorcery in Kagurabachi isn't based off of a form of energy separate from Spiritual Power. It is literally just Spiritual Power manifested in a different manner.
And Spiritual Power ends up doing all the extra bells and whistles we add where it does amping of physical stats, a proportional increase with increase of spiritual power, etc.
I feel like Sorcery relying upon the body being strong enough to handle it is one of the reasons which would best support it being UES too. If the toughness of the body was unrelated, then you shouldn't require a strong body in order to preform sorcery.
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- Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.
That's why I feel NPES works much better, like it makes no sense for Hiruhiko for example to be glazing himself being able to destroy a building with Play if all his strikes carried the same AP with that specifically considered a large display of power, same with a bunch of other moments.
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A NPES doesn't account for enhancing yourself physically with the same energy though.
Non-physical Energy System is one where supernatural or other feats, that are not based on the characters' body strengths, do not scale to physical statistics, but still scale to all other applications of non-physical powers the character may have.
The big issue with NPES is that it completely ignores energy being used to enhance oneself physically. Hence why its examples are only about someone utilizing different spells.
And as much as I hate to bring it up, the example for Hiruhiko is a classic case of DC over AP. Especially in Kagurabachi where we're shown multiple cases about how spreading out your power versus focusing into a fine point generally leads to weakening the power (a lot of enchanted blade feats).
NPES is supposed to be meant for systems where the power doesn't at all interact with your normal physicals. Hence the examples provided for NPES all being magical systems which don't do anything with amping a users physical power.
A verse having a UES doesn't mean that every attack a character uses should scale to everything else. I.e Dragon Ball where even though Ki is a UES, some techniques get rated higher due to these techniques being more powerful than their base physicals. Same with One Piece.
Non-physical Energy System is one where supernatural or other feats, that are not based on the characters' body strengths, do not scale to physical statistics, but still scale to all other applications of non-physical powers the character may have.
The big issue with NPES is that it completely ignores energy being used to enhance oneself physically. Hence why its examples are only about someone utilizing different spells.
And as much as I hate to bring it up, the example for Hiruhiko is a classic case of DC over AP. Especially in Kagurabachi where we're shown multiple cases about how spreading out your power versus focusing into a fine point generally leads to weakening the power (a lot of enchanted blade feats).
NPES is supposed to be meant for systems where the power doesn't at all interact with your normal physicals. Hence the examples provided for NPES all being magical systems which don't do anything with amping a users physical power.
A verse having a UES doesn't mean that every attack a character uses should scale to everything else. I.e Dragon Ball where even though Ki is a UES, some techniques get rated higher due to these techniques being more powerful than their base physicals. Same with One Piece.
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It doesn't, both Chakra and CE on wiki are under NPES and they perfectly take into account reinforcement a character can do it'd just be separate from the specifc techniques or sorcery they use which is most fitting to what is described in verse.
Sir... just no, I was very conservative with the examples I chose too. There's several moments 9-B~9-A physical striking feats are considered particularly impressive and strong and there's a lot more supporting that rather than some AP vs DC
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Kagurabachi's Sorcery does not work as a UES normally at all. Dale's already pointed out things that already disprove it as an UES and Kagurabachi has similar principles to Series such as JJK.
Both have Energy systems that can improve physical stats however its not an UES where stats across everything is equal in potency. Funny enough both have abilities or characters that actually disprove the energy systems being UES in any way (Ryu Ishigori being an outlier in Curse Energy via having UES principles and Cloaking in Kagurabachi being the ability that boosts and equalizes every stat and attack potency of every ability)
Frankly Dale is correct, Sorcery in Kagurabachi is an NPES outside of certain things such as Cloaking
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NPES by definition doesn't account for physicals. Reading the very page that list it and the examples given for it showcases it not including enhancing the body physically. I argue that when originally conceptualized, the point of NPES was for series which had mutliple means of uitlizing an energy source that wasn't physical. Hence why the literal name for it is Non-Physical Energy System.
CE, is only their because people super focused on the energy output having to be the exact same between amplifying the body and utilizing a techinque. Even though focusing on that, not even Ki (our poster boy for UES) would fall under the system.
I don't know about Chakra, but I assume the same issue popped up there especially since Chakra was originally listed under UES in the first place.
While we might've settled for NPES for these two, the actual way we define NPES does not include them.
I'm sure you were conservative. But I'll point out that the hyping up for feats which aren't that visually impressive and are actually much lower than what other feats give for characters is a common thing across the fiction we scale on here in general. Aizen v Dangai Ichigo and the mountain thing, Sakura scaring Naruto and Kakashi after the time-skip with her punches, etc.
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And I'll point that Cloaking is used by Enchanted Blade Wielders, who are getting an amp directly from utilizing Enchanted Blades. Which by their very nature amplifying the power of spiritual energy to the point that the body can't contain it anymore as their power is being pushed beyond its normal limits and their bodies as well.
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Two wrongs doesn't make a right and the people who focused on that are in-fact very much correct because a UES is literally arguing everything is equal across the board which we know it isn't, that's what it means to be a UES, having the energy output having to be the exact same between amplifying the body and utilizing a technique.
They don't account for physicals when it comes to the equalization of energy output to physicals, not once in Kagurabachi is stated that performing sorcery requires equal levels of spirit energy that it takes for fortification and that they utilize equal amounts of energy to do both and incorporate equally as much into their strikes too.
Just requiring that you have some kind of physical foundation that is in the superhuman to start performing sorcery doesn't mean that everything equally scales to each other across the board. That's taking an entire step ahead in assumptions for something we're never told or implied.
Doesn't push their bodies normally, just the power itself beyond their limits which makes it outwardly express itself and take on a shape but regardless cloaking is still a solid example here as I said above as well since it directly proves that people don't normally operate on UES type of system since that's the whole benefit of cloaking itself is that it imbues every action with equal amounts of spirit energy while amplifying them to higher stat levels. If they could already do that normally there would be no benefit to learning cloaking or it making a difference that suddenly all of their actions being imbued equally with the same amount of amplified spirit energy makes them far more lethal
Going back to fortification it again is something that's majorly dependent on how skillfull someone is at circulation of spirit energy and their bodies rather than doing something like equally putting the same output they would use into sorcery for everything else and expending equal energy to launch attacks or perform other actions
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NPES accounts for physicals using the same type of energy. It doesn't account for them using the same AMOUNT of energy.
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What's your profile on the fandom/wiki?
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Do i have to join as a supporter first?
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Not at all, I'm just curious (It's important)
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Right. Lemme go do that.
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How do you even do that (become a supporter I mean)?
(Would also be interested in helping making sandboxes for this verse)
Arkenis
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You just put your name in the verse page where you see supporter and help out. They've already did several sandboxes for some characters but you can always do your own if you think something's missing or help with their sandbox
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mostly every relevant character has a sandbox on the works
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You can go crazy with Shibum
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That did kinda give me a chill lol
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Taco Horizantal is feeding us well, first chapter that's properly in part 2 and we're already getting city level statements, the nuke sword memes are shaping up to be true
Arkenis
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I thought we'd get a couple months before next chapter since he just ended part 1.
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Oh he has more than enough for a profile with actually a decent amount of content probably moreso than others but yeah this will definitely elevate him, there's just a lot people don't pick up on but it is there
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