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Judgment on Elm Street

Promestein

Promestein

Resurrection Lily
She/Her
VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
8,675
5,560
Freddy Krueger, in the Dream World, vs the Spirit of Vengeance.

This is base Ghost Rider, of course. Let's say that Freddy is empowered by a lot of fear to narrow down that AP gap a bit.

Surprise surprise, it takes place in the Dream World.

Speed is equalized, victory via death, incapacitation, bfr, etc.

Freddy Krueger: 1

Ghost Rider: 11~

Inconclusive:
 
If Ghost Rider could catch Freddy in the Dreamworld, he could use the penance stare to burn Freddy, although Freddy won't be able to kill Ghost Rider in any feats that he has shown.

Either Ghost Rider, or inconclusive with Freddy running away.
 
There's a possibility that Freddy can trap GR in a time loop or BFR him, but that's almost certainly not the first thing his movie self does in-character, and his other hax powers seem pretty seriously gimped in this matchup.

Meanwhile GR wins the moment he Penance Stares, and his regen, resistances, superior physicals and other forms of immortality give me the impression that he can last long enough to do it. More times than not, anyway.

Voting Johnny Blaze.
 
Freddy via incapaciation.

Everyone assumes that Freddy is going to toy with every single victim he has. If Freddy feels threatened, he will not take any chances. This is evident with his brief fight with the Aztec dream protector Nahuaquez in DC Comic's A Nightmare On Elm Street comic series, in which Freddy defeated Nahuaquez after the latter attempting to punch Freddy.

All Freddy has to do to win is read GR's mind to read into the latters plan and change his durability to be unaffected by GR's attacks. He did this in Dream Master in Mark's dream with two souls, and OP stated that Freddy is powered by many, meaning he certainly has more freedom to do things such as that.

Then, with the threat out of the way, all Freddy has to do is incapacitate GR for a day in the Dream World and he wins.
 
It seems like a bit of an NLF to say that he can "change his durability to be unaffected by" someone who's a good four tiers above him in AP, even with multiple souls at his disposal.

It's also going to be quite hard to incap when most of Freddy's best incapping options that he's seen favoring are effectively moot against Ghost Rider. I'm pretty sure he has two powers that will work. That's about it.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
It seems like a bit of an NLF to say that he can "change his durability to be unaffected by" someone who's a good four tiers above him in AP, even with multiple souls at his disposal.
It's also going to be quite hard to incap when most of Freddy's best incapping options that he's seen favoring are effectively moot against Ghost Rider. I'm pretty sure he has two powers that will work. That's about it.
Click to expand...
OP is using Base GR.

What's stopping Freddy from manipulating the dream into a place where GR's powers are completely useless and leaving him there for a day?
 
Yes, and base Johnny is Mountain level. Freddy is Town level. That's a four tier difference. (Large Town, Small City, City, Mountain)

The fact that he didn't do that to Jason while they were in the Dream World in FvJ? Or the fact that he's never been shown doing that to anyone on Ghost Rider's level at any point? Or the fact that Johnny has resistance to Reality Warping, Power Nullification and Mind Manipulation, any/all of which that avenue would fall under?
 
And it's not like Freddy hasn't done this before, here he is manipulating Alice, a very skilled lucid dreamer into an environment where she is completely vulnerable to him.
Freddy uses hax
Freddy uses hax 2
 
Ninja'd you, but the points I made prior to your post still stand. That won't work on someone who's not only several orders of magnitude more powerful than Freddy, but also blatantly resists Reality Warping, Power Null and Mind Manip, which is pretty much everything the above approach likely falls under.
 
Freddy could very well just be overpowering Alice's control there.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Yes, and base Johnny is Mountain level. Freddy is Town level. That's a four tier difference. (Large Town, Small City, City, Mountain)
The fact that he didn't do that to Jason while they were in the Dream World in FvJ? Or the fact that he's never been shown doing that to anyone on Ghost Rider's level at any point? Or the fact that Johnny has resistance to Reality Warping, Power Nullification and Mind Manipulation, any/all of which that avenue would fall under?
Click to expand...
But he did, he took away Jason's strength and abilities, reducing him to a small child, and nearly drowned him before Jason woke up.

Again, he was able to reduce Alice Johnson to a helpless woman, a highly skilled lucid dreamer who was able to beat Freddy on his own turf with said power by simply dreaming away her abilities.

Freddy's AP is at least as large as Springwood, OH to Wessex County, NJ with sufficient influence.

Highly skilled Dream Manipulators are able to warp dreams into whatever they want, Resistance doesn't mean anything unless you have Oneriric Resistance. Freddy was able to kill Debbie Stevens, Nancy Thompson and Clair (from the Avatar Press comic series), who resisted Freddy by denying him of power, Ghost Rider is no different.
 
Promestein said:
Freddy could very well just be overpowering Alice's control there.
Click to expand...
Freddy had 26 souls when he had his first fight with Alice. The amount of souls he has between Dream Child and Freddy's Dead is unknown, but he had all of them removed at the ends of both Dream Master and Dream Child.
 
He didn't do that until he saw Jason hesitate in front of a torrent of water. Before that, he was forced to fight him in a much more physical sense due to being incapable of figuring out any of the latter's fears. Which reminds me, putting up a fight against Doctor Strange attempting to invade his mind means that mind reading (which involves invading the mind) is useless here. No mind reading = can't observe Ghost Rider's fears.

Baseline Mountain level is quite literally 1000x more powerful than the highest end of Town level. I highly doubt that Freddy's going to bridge that kind of a gap.

Dream Manipulation is a subset of Mind Manipulation, which Johnny resists.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
He didn't do that until he saw Jason hesitate in front of a torrent of water. Before that, he was forced to fight him in a much more physical sense due to being incapable of figuring out any of the latter's fears. Which reminds me, putting up a fight against Doctor Strange attempting to invade his mind means that mind reading (which involves invading the mind) is useless here. No mind reading = can't observe Ghost Rider's fears.
Baseline Mountain level is quite literally 1000x more powerful than the highest end of Town level. I highly doubt that Freddy's going to bridge that kind of a gap.

Dream Manipulation is a subset of Mind Manipulation, which Johnny resists.
Click to expand...
That's because he realised Jason was going to be tougher to put down than he had thought, Ghost Rider is a different case assuming the latter attempts to attack Freddy first in the Dream World. It all depends on how quickly Freddy realises Ghost Rider is a threat, which he realised almost instantly for Nahuaquez.

Freddy doesn't need to see into Ghost Rider's fears, he just needs to restrict him of power which has been shown to do.

It was never stated the fight took place in Ghost Rider's dreams/mind, simply the Dream World. In the NMOES series people are consistently dragged into the Dream World by other forces in Freddy dreams, and Freddy is still able to harm/**** with them. If Freddy had no access to his Dream Manipulation with GR, the fight would be a stomp.
 
He quite literally says "Oh, so you are afraid of something after all..." or something to that effect in his first battle with Jason. He spends most of the fight trying to beat Jason down with physical attacks/telekinesis and failing to keep him from getting back up again, and it's made quite clear that Freddy discovering his aversion to water is what turned the tables in that fight.

As far as I'm aware, he hasn't been shown restricting the powers of someone who could prevent him from entering their mind and reading their thoughts, which Ghost Rider is certainly capable of. He also hasn't been shown doing so against someone who blatantly resists power null and reality warping, nor has he been shown doing so against someone whose powers are quite literally over a thousand times stronger than his own.

If the fight takes place in a neutral battleground and not inside Ghost Rider's mind, then he definitely resists Freddy's abilities.

All of this while Ghost Rider is capable of temporarily incapacitating Freddy every time lands a blow with any of his attacks, and can win the match for good the moment he manages to Penance Stare Freddy. Which he will undoubtedly attempt to do throughout the fight, since Freddy fits the mould for Ghost Rider's "evil people I want to use the Stare on" list.
 
Freddy just manipulates his universe, it's not really mind manipulation. It's often portrayed as separate from the normal character as well, with the exception of the damage they take, but that in itself is a grain of salt thing due to being supernatural in nature.

Freddy is the kind of person who toys with his enemies, that is why he didn't stomp Jason and ground him into beef, he literally could have dropped him from many kilometers like in any other movie. He also literally played pinball with him when they weren't in a physical fight.

I agree with your other points, powers and abilities of a character still work within the dream world, for instance, Alice actually retained her Dream abilities, eg. Absorbing Dream powers and skills, this is even proven when Freddy literally uses it to his advantage. And Freddy couldn't fight someone possibly a thousand times stronger, and who almost all of his powers wouldn't work against. Not sure about the Penance Stare, i don't know how exactly it works.

@Arrogant Smuck

Nah, i didn't find it mean.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
He quite literally says "Oh, so you are afraid of something after all..." or something to that effect in his first battle with Jason. He spends most of the fight trying to beat Jason down with physical attacks/telekinesis and failing to keep him from getting back up again, and it's made quite clear that Freddy discovering his aversion to water is what turned the tables in that fight.
As far as I'm aware, he hasn't been shown restricting the powers of someone who could prevent him from entering their mind and reading their thoughts, which Ghost Rider is certainly capable of. He also hasn't been shown doing so against someone who blatantly resists power null and reality warping, nor has he been shown doing so against someone whose powers are quite literally over a thousand times stronger than his own.

If the fight takes place in a neutral battleground and not inside Ghost Rider's mind, then he definitely resists Freddy's abilities.

All of this while Ghost Rider is capable of temporarily incapacitating Freddy every time lands a blow with any of his attacks, and can win the match for good the moment he manages to Penance Stare Freddy. Which he will undoubtedly attempt to do throughout the fight, since Freddy fits the mould for Ghost Rider's "evil people I want to use the Stare on" list.
Click to expand...
Freddy's telepathy is pretty inconsistent, in NMOES 4 he was able to see into Debbie's fear of bugs without physically confronting her about it once in the film prior to her death.

As you said, Dream Manipulation is a subset of Mind Manipulation. Freddy simply overcame Claire's resistance to him, a girl who denied Freddy access to her mind/dreams by simply convincing herself that Freddy was nothing to be afraid of. So I suppose it wasn't him "restricting her Resistance", Freddy was just not affected by it period. The same thing happened to a lesser extent in NMOES 4 with Debbie.

Let's assume Ghost Rider actually manages to use the Penance Stare on Freddy. Would Freddy actually be affected?

Look here , here and here . I doubt Freddy cares about any of the crimes he commited, he literally works for demons who saw him as a truly evil force, and was considered "humanity's darkest creation" in New Nightmare.

I'm still confident Freddy will be able hold his own long enough to incapacitate GR.
 
New Nightmare is a different continuity where Freddy is an evil entity who took on incarnations of evil in literature. Not trying to contradict you, just adding more context.

But i'm pretty sure that Penance Stare weakness has been contradicted on multiple occasions
 
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