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Seeing as Joseph has managed to beat Kars in cqc (Who has 9c to 40c reaction/limb speeds) won't be hard to say they both can.
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Jotaro vs Kenshiro
- Thread starter Malcolm_Neill
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I think it's best to deem Kenshiro vs Jotaro to be inconculsive
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That's a problem with a lot of fights where the end is decided on "who shoots first"
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Still forgetting that Star Platinum overwhelms Kenshiro with pure speed. You do know that Star Platinum can just phase it's arm inside of Kenshiro and crush internal organs? If Jotaro managed to use this to stop his own heart and start Josephs I can see him using it in a offensive manner.Malcolm Neill said:
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Actually for fun i will post my reasoning as to why Jotaro wins in my Jotato vs Kenshiro blog
Hmm, this is a tough one to be sure. There are several factors to consider but overall i am going with Jotaro Kujo for this DB.First Kenshiro can't harm/hit, block or see Star Platinum which is kinda a problem with Kenshiro relies on those attacks. Yes he can hurt Jotaro but SP is much more difficult. Star Platinum could block all of Kenshiro's punches, kicks and any other techniques. This is because Star Platinum can attack FTL. In terms of strength Star Platinum can punch through a whole set of gigantic diamond teeth - that along with his FTL speeds means that Jotaro can easily match Kenshiro.Even if he could see Star Platinum and hurt it, he would only be able to keep up with its sheer speed and strength for a bit. While Time Stop can damage Jotaro it's advantages easily overcome its disadvantages. The only possible way for Kenshiro to win was if he had somehow maneuvered passed Star Platinum and kill Jotaro. Despite Kenshiro's strength there is now way the mighty Kenshiro can do that. But there one question that needs asking - how does Star Platinum manage to break through the Musou Tensei?. The Musou Tensei is a very powerful as it not only negates all physical attacks and since Star is a physical stand it relies on physical attacks. One of SP's less well known abilities is the fact that it can stop or revert heartbeats. Even while Jotaro can't hit Kenshiro while in Musou Tensei it still has the ability to phase through people and stop heartbeats or increase heartbeats as he has done on himself and Joseph.Star Platinum is able to stop Kenshiro's heart for a moment. Musou Tenshi requires complete concentration meaning that SP can revert Kenshiro back to normal and this will leave him vulnerable. This gives Jotaro the ability to attack him and bypass Kenshiro's ultimate defense.This would end up allowing Jotaro an opening to attack him.Jotaro quite simply has the better combat speed, strength, precision, and is even more intelligent compared to Kenshiro's wide arsenal, experience, and techniques that could kill Jotaro. Sadly Kenshiro couldn't just keep up with Star Platinum's sheer power. While Kenshiro is certainty deserving of his title and could easily beat Jotaro by himself he cannot hope to match Star Platinum who has beaten way worse foes than Kenshiro.
Hmm, this is a tough one to be sure. There are several factors to consider but overall i am going with Jotaro Kujo for this DB.First Kenshiro can't harm/hit, block or see Star Platinum which is kinda a problem with Kenshiro relies on those attacks. Yes he can hurt Jotaro but SP is much more difficult. Star Platinum could block all of Kenshiro's punches, kicks and any other techniques. This is because Star Platinum can attack FTL. In terms of strength Star Platinum can punch through a whole set of gigantic diamond teeth - that along with his FTL speeds means that Jotaro can easily match Kenshiro.Even if he could see Star Platinum and hurt it, he would only be able to keep up with its sheer speed and strength for a bit. While Time Stop can damage Jotaro it's advantages easily overcome its disadvantages. The only possible way for Kenshiro to win was if he had somehow maneuvered passed Star Platinum and kill Jotaro. Despite Kenshiro's strength there is now way the mighty Kenshiro can do that. But there one question that needs asking - how does Star Platinum manage to break through the Musou Tensei?. The Musou Tensei is a very powerful as it not only negates all physical attacks and since Star is a physical stand it relies on physical attacks. One of SP's less well known abilities is the fact that it can stop or revert heartbeats. Even while Jotaro can't hit Kenshiro while in Musou Tensei it still has the ability to phase through people and stop heartbeats or increase heartbeats as he has done on himself and Joseph.Star Platinum is able to stop Kenshiro's heart for a moment. Musou Tenshi requires complete concentration meaning that SP can revert Kenshiro back to normal and this will leave him vulnerable. This gives Jotaro the ability to attack him and bypass Kenshiro's ultimate defense.This would end up allowing Jotaro an opening to attack him.Jotaro quite simply has the better combat speed, strength, precision, and is even more intelligent compared to Kenshiro's wide arsenal, experience, and techniques that could kill Jotaro. Sadly Kenshiro couldn't just keep up with Star Platinum's sheer power. While Kenshiro is certainty deserving of his title and could easily beat Jotaro by himself he cannot hope to match Star Platinum who has beaten way worse foes than Kenshiro.
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Does Jotaro actually have any stamina feats to suggest that SP can punch that much? From what I know, they never have in the show. And the whole thing is based on the assumption that he has limitless stamina. He's never displayed such punching speed to my knowledge.
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He punches quite a lot, all the time. His speed is also scaled from Silver Chariot, who both moved AND attacked at hundreds of times the speed of light, so all his punches would technically be taking place in like...a second if he wanted them to.ShadMorgen said:
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ShadMorgen said:
Seeing as an out of shape Star Platinum is able to maintain a constant blitz of 2 seconds to SHA I would say that it has sufficent stamina to perform the amount of punches present. Also in the scans I showed prior both The World and Star Platinum kept up a constant flurry of punches without showing any signs of exhaustion even whilst exchanging blows.
Being able to move at speeds such as 365c should show that they can move their limbs at similar speeds. Also sucking in all that fog would show SP won't be running out of breath anytime soon xD
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Jotaro vs Kenshiro is very hard to pick a true winner. It's best to leave it.
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One of them can stop time, literally being 4 millions times faster than his opponent and can use selective intangibility to crush internal organs.Malcolm Neill said:
The other one only has atomic destruction and intangibility hax. Neither he will use due to horrific speed gap, this match is honestly a stomp.
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I do think Jotaro will win but it's not a stomp
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Logic, reason, and superior feats lose to a site that thinks their calcs and assumptions matter more than anything else. Should have known this would be a waste of time. Can't have a good old fashioned VS debate without someone trying to shove irrelevant numbers down your throat to distract attention from one character having monstrously better feats. Jotaro and SP can have their speed and timestop.The punches should be like paper to Kenshiro anyway. Kenshiro wins by tanking the initial barrage and overwhelming Jotaro with his vast arsenal of attacks and range.
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No assumptions are being used here at all.
Star Platinum has shown to be millions of times faster than Kenshiro via powerscaling to Silver Chariot, it can throw tens of billions of punches within just a seconds timeframe with each hit having mcb+ power. The initial barage would end Kenshiro and turn him into red mist. He gets horrificly blitzed.
If Ken does decide to fire out projectiles and stay at a safe range Jotaro is more than capable of The World spam to move out of the way similar to how he does it here
I don't see how these are irelevant numbers. Getting blitzed even for a second by someone who is mftl and mcb+ in power spells certain doom for Kenshiro.
Star Platinum has shown to be millions of times faster than Kenshiro via powerscaling to Silver Chariot, it can throw tens of billions of punches within just a seconds timeframe with each hit having mcb+ power. The initial barage would end Kenshiro and turn him into red mist. He gets horrificly blitzed.
If Ken does decide to fire out projectiles and stay at a safe range Jotaro is more than capable of The World spam to move out of the way similar to how he does it here
I don't see how these are irelevant numbers. Getting blitzed even for a second by someone who is mftl and mcb+ in power spells certain doom for Kenshiro.
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Tons of assumptions are being made. Numbers are irrelevant. People who spend too much time trying to apply real life science and math to fiction are gonna have a bad time. You can use these numbers as a reference, but they hold up next to shit in a VS debate. It all just depends on what someone is willing to accept or not based on the visual evidence presented. I won't be just accepting fan calcs and numbers because they are right in relation to real life science. Fiction gonna fiction and real life calcs and assumptions mean next to shit in the face of overwhelmingly better feats minus speed.
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You're making no sense. If thats the case all calcs etc are not allowed and we would get nowhere.
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And the world would be a better place. Lol.
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Your opinions are your own but I'd appreciate it if we can actually get back to the matchup.
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Nothing left to discuss it seems. We all seem to be at an impass.
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How can I discuss anything when you flat out deny all calculations sent your way and right them off as fan drivel? You're being very hard to deal with here.BerialEdge said:
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As opposed to what? Just rolling over and accepting whatever fan calc comes my way regardless of who else accepts it or how garbage the logic is getting said calc to begin with? If calcs are all you've got, then we are at an impass.
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Well you actually have no logic against them.
Just incredulity.
Just incredulity.
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The calculations I mentioned have been accepted mate, not sure what you're on about. What else should I use apart from calculations? They are a accurate way to tell us how exactly strong,fast a feat is etc. Why am I even explaining this? This should be common knowledge.BerialEdge said:
Just accept Kenshiro can't withstand a speed blitz from Star Platinum.
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Well, from my point of view, if some fan site didn't eat this shit up like cake, it wouldn't be being brought up to me now. So from my point of view, you guys are appealing to an authority that I don't recognize. There is no way in hell I'm gonna accept a 68 billion punch per second calc just because someone thinks it makes sense when nothing like that has ever been shown.
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So just denial and incredulity?
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Call it what you want if it helps you feel better.
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Without calcs we wouldn't even have a proper tiering system. A debate without calcs is a debate without proper order. Logia? Reasoning? All taken into consideration whilst making calcs, including the fact that this is still fiction. Superior feats? Calcs make it easier to compare them, for example we now know splitting a planet 1 km is inferior to actually busting it.
Without Science, we wouldn't know what is FTL, or even what the speed of sound is. It's a balance. A sense of incredulity should be maintained but not to the point where we don't see reason.
Without Science, we wouldn't know what is FTL, or even what the speed of sound is. It's a balance. A sense of incredulity should be maintained but not to the point where we don't see reason.
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Alright so here is the conclusion.
Yes Kenshiro may only need one good hit, but seeing as how Star Platinum is 4 million times faster than him this will not be happening anytime soon whatsoever. Jotaro having FTL reactions and being the overall better thinker (Proved many times in all parts of JoJo) make him adapt to whatever Kenshiro will throw his way.
When you add up that Star Platinum can throw tens of billions of punches within seconds each of them with mcb+ power the possibility of Kenshiro being overwhelmed and turned into mist is too high. Selective intangibility allows Star Platinun to crush internal organs also.
Oh yea Star Platinum can also stop time, as if Jotaro did not have enough advantages already.
Yes Kenshiro may only need one good hit, but seeing as how Star Platinum is 4 million times faster than him this will not be happening anytime soon whatsoever. Jotaro having FTL reactions and being the overall better thinker (Proved many times in all parts of JoJo) make him adapt to whatever Kenshiro will throw his way.
When you add up that Star Platinum can throw tens of billions of punches within seconds each of them with mcb+ power the possibility of Kenshiro being overwhelmed and turned into mist is too high. Selective intangibility allows Star Platinun to crush internal organs also.
Oh yea Star Platinum can also stop time, as if Jotaro did not have enough advantages already.
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I think Berial was trying to say that the feats don't match up with the calc people are using here. Star Platinum has never shown a quantity of punches that large within a single second and nothing alludes to it. That's a lot different than wanting to throw out all calcs which is what you seem to be accusing him of here.TheMightyRegulator said:
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Star Platinum uses punch rushes all the time. We are never told how fast exactly they are but thanks to knowing SP's travel speed we can scale this to limb movements/combat speed and say he is also punching at MFTL speeds, which happens to be 68 billions of times per second.
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As evidence I'd link to link an OBD thread here for where timestop damage stacking was debunked as it couldn't be proven that Jotaro, Dio or their stands could punch billions of times in a single second like a lot of fan calcs claim http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1051082&page=13
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Stamina is not an issue, The World and Star Platinum can beat eachother with a flurry of punches and still be a-ok.Xolon said:
Again I should repeat that the MFTL SC calculation also aplies for it's attack speed. Also that the speed at which you can punch is faster than overall travel speed. Specific motion is irrelevent when the character is 365c it can still be tens of billions etc.
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A flurry of punches, but not necessarily a flurry of billions of punches like you are claiming, unless you have a link to something you are holding back? Otherwise you are just assuming something that has never been shown.
Also, BerialEdge has been banned for some reason, just thought I'd let people know so they don't think he was just done. Don't think he has posted anywhere but here.
Also, BerialEdge has been banned for some reason, just thought I'd let people know so they don't think he was just done. Don't think he has posted anywhere but here.
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This stamina feat proves they can throw punches at each other non stop without much issue (3 pages of Ora and Muda).
The 365c calculation we use not only shows the movement speed but also the combat speed of Silver Chariot, also we have Star Platinum being able to contend with a duel wielding Silver Chariot. Therefore showing Star Platinums attack speed is MFTL, which justifies him throwing billions of punches/s
The 365c calculation we use not only shows the movement speed but also the combat speed of Silver Chariot, also we have Star Platinum being able to contend with a duel wielding Silver Chariot. Therefore showing Star Platinums attack speed is MFTL, which justifies him throwing billions of punches/s
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Read next point, Silver Chariot has MFTL attack speed and due to Jotaro being able to contend with it he scales to this too.
Now if you have MFTL attack speed, you can definately throw 6 billion+ of these attacks in a single second.
Now if you have MFTL attack speed, you can definately throw 6 billion+ of these attacks in a single second.
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Arguments from incredulity are not solid arguments, people. Star Platinum being unable to throw this many punches because "it doesn't look like he does" or something of that nature is not a proper argument when someone he scales to is over 300 times the speed of light.
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