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Janemba (Shin Budokai)

SSJRyu1

SSJRyu1

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Why was Janemba SB profile removed? I wasn't even made aware of the decision before the thread closed, and had no input in the thread despite being the one who got the info on the character in the first place and had it approved by multiple mods. Azzy even made the profile to make it what he considered accurate. 2-C rating was settled on as a conservative estimate, I don't see a reasonable reason for deleting the profile of a character that is very unique and well researched.

I already made a blog a while back that backs up that Janemba was warping space and time of all heaven, hell, and the normal universe, and even other timelines like pulling past gohan, Cell from the past, Future Trunks etc in.

The info on there is accurate. If anything it could use some additions now since we have added many more abilities to the wiki that would apply, and perhaps some scans and more detailed descriptions is all, which I am more than happy to implement.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SSJRyu1/Janemba_(Shin_Budokai)_Profile
 
The only evidence pointing towards Janemba actually warping the entirety of the Afterlife alongside the normal Universe and its Timelines is Kibitoshin stating that "multiple spaces are being warped simultaneously".

This is not only extremely vague, but also clearly refers to the rifts in Space and Time caused by Janemba, which were connecting the main Universe to its alternate timelines, as well as Hell, it really doesn't indicate that entire Timelines were being warped by the evil energy.

Cell is literally just saying that he is going to use Trunks' Time Machine to travel across alternate Timelines and spread havok across them, and it isn't 2-A by the very fact that he [Cell] is stating that since there are endless worlds, he can have all the fun he wants for an Infinite amount of time. Then there is the fact that this statement is not remotely related to Janemba.

Gotenks' feat can literally be interpreted as simply being Spatial Manipulation, assuming that he manipulated Timelines to erase Cell from Time itself is an immense stretch that is completely unsupported by the scans. Cell didn't resurrect after being killed by him because Vegeta had already destroyed Janemba's manifestation on Earth and vanquished all of the evil energy that was spreading across the main Universe, which was what kept continuously reforming the villains who had returned from Hell.
 
Azathoth literally says in the blog

"The point is that we only know he's 2-C. That's it. He has the possibility of being higher, hence possibly higher. However, we do not assume the absolute high end from vague comments from different characters."

SO Azathoth states he is 2-C minimum even according to himself, and actually agreed to possibly higher to. Not to mention he made the profile to his specifications and the subsequent edits and additions.

So no, he agreed with the profile as did many others. In fact many thought he should be listed even higher.

I am not saying make him 2-A, I am saying 2-C is more than reasonable since he has direct feats that even when low balled make him 2-C.


Now as for the warping. It is literally stated.

"Heaven has been ensnared, and Hell connected to this place..."

Reffering to Kaioshin realm and living world.

It also then goes on to say

"The spatial distortion is connecting to another place"

refering to the alternate timelines like for future gohan, future trunks, cell from the past etc. All which are shown in the scans.

Trunks even says the energy

"has been twisting space around and turning people evil."

and supreme kai even says he is

"twisting space and time",

and it is stated he forced future gohan and others to time travel.

Then it even says

"These spaces are all being warped simoltainiously."

That is not just holes, although they are present to, that is the actual seperate spaces all being warped, plural at once due to the evil energy permiating all of them almost everywhere and spreading across space and time in multiple timelines.

Not wank in the slightest, fact that he is 2-C low balled.
 
Janemba has no 2-C feats, he simply manipulate space enough to affect boundaries between realities and dimensions. That's range, but not AP, and not something that makes one 2-C.
 
It states "These spaces are all being warped simoltainiously." This is proving all of the spaces are all being warped at once. And it is made clear his energy is everywhere and warping space wherever it is, this is waht is causing all teh dead to come back, other timelines to overlap, and people to turn evil and get controlled, adn him to manifest bodies. He is indeed warping and twisting all time and space across this whole range all at once. He is 2-C based on his feat and multiple statements backing it.

Azathoth, Ant, Promestein, Matt many others to all agreed that he is easily 2-C.

Literaly Matt's quote on the blog "He seems like a 2-B character to me, but I can see either 2-C and possibly High 2-A working as well."

Your literally contradicting yourself.

2-C is a more than reasonable low ball.
 
You're trying to use what people said 2 years ago as evidence. What I said before is irrelevant. In the actual downgrade / delete thread that Ultima did, it was unanimously agreed, by much the same people you brought up, that the page was wrong.

All that Janemba does is warp space. Everything else is your speculation.

"Like I told Matt, I only made this page based on information from other users and to prevent an even more wanked version from being created.

So yeah. Get rid of it."

Azathoth's statement on it.
 
@SSJRyu1 People can change their minds you know, especially when further context was brought up that they previously didn't notice.
 
Issue is the exact same scans are used and were reviewed, so nothing has changed in terms of information. Not that that matters since it is directly stated he is warpign space and time directly, adn that he is warping "all" of the spaces, plural simoltainiously, and that his energy is felt everywhere, which is what is responsible for warpign space wherever it is. So no, thats incorrect, it is stated and shown he is warping the entierty of spaces and time as well all at once.

I honestly don't get why you are saying he only warps space when he is directly stated to have ensnared heaven, Hell and connected them to kaioshin realm and living world, as well as other timelines, and that his evil energy is everywhere causing time and space to be warped and twisted wherever it is, causing the dead to come back, people to turn evil and people to be thrown into alternate timelines from the the evil energy, which is everywhere. Not to mention it literally says "These spaces are all being warped simoltainiously." Directly stating it is all happening at once everywhere in multiple space times further.


These are literal quotes, not speculation.

It is literally stated.

"Heaven has been ensnared, and Hell connected to this place..."

Reffering to Kaioshin realm and living world.

It also then goes on to say

"The spatial distortion is connecting to another place"

refering to the alternate timelines like for future gohan, future trunks, cell from the past etc. All which are shown in the scans.

Trunks even says the energy

"has been twisting space around and turning people evil."

and supreme kai even says Janemba is

"twisting space and time",

and it is stated he forced future gohan and others to time travel.

Then it even says

"These spaces are all being warped simoltainiously."

That is not just holes, although they are present to, that is the actual seperate spaces all being warped, plural at once due to the evil energy permiating all of them almost everywhere and spreading across space and time in multiple timelines.

Literally every claim I made is backed up in the scans from the blog, you can easily see them below.

http://imgur.com/a/81SR4
 
Yes, and I used these exact same Scans in the Thread where the deletion of the profile was suggested, and much of the same people that commented in your blog agreed that the profile was wanked, so this is a moot point, you are acting as if people changing their minds is something absurd and impossible.

Except that Kibitoshin is blatantly referring to the rifts in Space-Time which Janemba was creating, since right before mentioning that the main Universe and the Afterlife are becoming warped simultaneously, he talks about distortions in space and how the fact that they connect the Universe to alternate Dimensions can he catastrophic. Plus, there is the fact that the distortions which are actually seen and brought up in the story are the rifts in Space and Time Janemba was causing, so the Universe and alternate Dimensions becoming warped only refers to the boundary between them being damaged and manipulated into holes by Janemba, this is only Range, not full-blown AP.

Heaven being ensnared is indeed talking about the evil energy which was spreading everywhere, but I don't see why that would be an AP feat, especially since I already explained that the energy was only causing Spatial Distortions which were connecting the normal Universe to other Dimensions and Timelines (i.e unquantifiable Space-Time Manipulation and decent range). It is also likely talking about the barrier between Heaven and Hell that Janemba created, too, and how King Yemma had been sealed and Life and Death were thus going out of control.
 
Even though I agree with the removal (I highly doubt that "feat" was even intended, given that Shin Budokai is a different re-telling of the original movie) i'm a bit sad, really.

I always loved having that strange and more OP version of Super Janemba around, lol.
 
Kibitoshin stated that if Janemba got serious, he'd be able to shake the entirety of the universe. This statement took place while they were in Hell, which means that Janemba would have the ability to shake the entirety of the Other World and the Living World.

On Shin Budokai, the Other World, the Kaioshin Realm and the Living World are all treated as having alternate flows of time, which means that Janemba trembling Universe 7 is a 2-C feat.

In short, recreate the profile.
 
That was referring to Vegetto, not Janemba, the latter has a similar feat of shaking and nearly destroying Hell in his fight against Kid Buu (?), but it is like, 3-B or 3-A at most assuming the place is Universe-sized.
 
Considering Janemba has feats even if you ignore his tier 2 forkery, I consider it a mistake to have deleted the profile, so I just call it a downgrade.
 
> The Universe and alternate Dimensions becoming warped only refers to the boundary between them being damaged and manipulated into holes by Janemba, this is only Range, not full-blown AP.

These specific Kibitoshin statements specify the rifts, yes, but that doesn't mean that's 'all the distortion extends to. There is proof later on that the evil energy extends and does more than just connect the space-times together with portals like you're implying here.

> Heaven being ensnared is indeed talking about the evil energy which was spreading everywhere, but I don't see why that would be an AP feat, especially since I already explained that the energy was only causing Spatial Distortions which were connecting the normal Universe to other Dimensions and Timelines (i.e unquantifiable Space-Time Manipulation and decent range). It is also likely talking about the barrier between Heaven and Hell that Janemba created, too, and how King Yemma had been sealed and Life and Death were thus going out of control.

That's untrue:

1. Enma-Daio's palace isn't located even remotely close to Heaven. The check-in station is located at the center of the Other World while Heaven is on one of the edges, so there's a distance of billions of light years there. Assuming that Kibitoshin is somehow talking about Enma really doesn't make sense.

2. Janemba's warping only causing rifts is not stated anywhere in the story. His distortion causes multiple effects on time and space, one of which is creating portals that connect locations. It's not literally all it extends to. This is a pure circular argument.

3. "Ensnare" is synonymous with "capture". So Kibitoshin is stating that Janemba warped all of Heaven.
 
Also, it's outright stated that the evil energy that Janemba embodies is omnipresent throughout the Other World, the Kaioshin Realm and the Living World, and said evil energy is what distorts these worlds.

Putting two and two together, 2-C Janemba is pretty plausible.
 
Can you show specific statements that Janemba's evil energy does more than distorting Space-Time and creating rifts? The only thing that supports this is Gohan's past self being materiallized into the present through his Dreams, which is likely just some form of Soul / Dream Manipulation.

I concede on the point regarding Enma-Daio. However, Heaven being ensnared most likely refers to Janemba's Evil Energy having erected a barrier between it and Hell, and as far as I remember there is really no indication that the realm as a whole was being warped other than stretchy speculation.
 
WindGodAcheron said:
Also, it's outright stated that the evil energy that Janemba embodies is omnipresent throughout the Other World, the Kaioshin Realm and the Living World, and said evil energy is what distorts these worlds.
Putting two and two together, 2-C Janemba is pretty plausible.
Click to expand...
This is Omnipresence across multiple Dimensions, yes, but it doesn't translate to AP at all, we don't rate Touhou Gods as higher than 4-A / 3-A for being ideas extending across multiple Dimensions, it is just their Range that is this high.

And again, proof that the entirety of the Afterlife was being warped alongside the normal Universe and its alternate timelines is needed.
 
Ultima Reality said:
WindGodAcheron said:
Also, it's outright stated that the evil energy that Janemba embodies is omnipresent throughout the Other World, the Kaioshin Realm and the Living World, and said evil energy is what distorts these worlds.
Putting two and two together, 2-C Janemba is pretty plausible.
Click to expand...
This is Omnipresence across multiple Dimensions, yes, but it doesn't translate to AP at all, we don't rate Touhou Gods as higher than 4-A / 3-A for being ideas extending across multiple Dimensions, it is just their Range that is this high.
And again, proof that the entirety of the Afterlife was being warped alongside the normal Universe and its alternate timelines is needed.
Click to expand...


Well if you think about it the after life is only important to planets in the universe that have population that believe in an after life. And DB's Universe 7 has only a handful of planets that believe in an afterlife, Though I don't know how this tanslates to multiverse.


Question on AP:


If a planet buster, like First Form Frieza could destroyed a planet accross all possible dimensions and number of possible dimension that can possible exist is truely infinite.


What would he AP be? Would it be" Tier 5-4, because he is only destroying a planet in one relavent dimension. Tier 3ABC cause multi-dimensional galaxy,galaxies or universe consists of infinite possible planets.


OR Tier 2A cause it covers all the truely infinite possible dimensions that can possible exist, with proper context.
 
Tier 2-A is absurd, he has no feats on such a scale, lest those obtained through misinterpretation of mere spatial manipulation.
 
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