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Jak & Daxter vs Ratchet & Clank

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Yojimbo1989

Yojimbo1989

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Right so ignoring a certain web-series that is doing this particular match-up very soon, who do you think wins this? It actually seems like a very even match. Both stats are extremely close and both have a wide variety of abilities that they can use.

Let's say that this fight starts in a massive area littered with all tools and power-ups that both combatants can use. Both pairs are in character and the fight can end end KO/Death or Incapacitation and both have access to their strongest weapons and abilities.

Cast your votes
 
Don't known about Ratchet nor Clang, but I think that Jak is physically stronger via Dark and Light eco, his stronger weapon is a mini nuke, but doesn't possesses much experience unlike Ratchet
 
Jak and Daxter are phisically stronger

But Ratchet and Clank equipment is... Insane

They have territory and range advantage, some hax, and potencial speed advantage

I give this to Ratchet and Clank.
 
This is one fight that I'm completely on the fence about, Ratchet and Clank have the superior equipment, but Jak and Daxter have the hax advantage, but some of Ratchet's weapons (like Black Hole generators) could be considered hax.

Indeed this is a very hard match to decide
 
I'm not fmiliar with either but looking at the profiles it looks like Ratchet/Clank are faster so that's all I can really say is it looks like R/C win.
 
Does Rachet have a composite arsenal? Because I recall him having a weapon mod that turned all enemies into baby sheep. Otherwise, I think Rachet has an overall much greater variety of weapons to use.

I can see this match going both ways, though.
 
I place my vote on Jak.

His ability to reflect some projectiles, he has several shields, Dark Jak is invulnerable, and the fact that he can slow down or even stop time would be useful to him.

Ratchet is extremely reliable on Clank and his arsenal while Jak does fine without weapons and Daxter, those two are just an added bonus for him. Plus most of Jak's weapons can hold more ammunition and have a faster fire-rate.

I do think it'd be close, but I give it to Jak. This might be a bit of a stretch, but I think Ratchet's armor is also vulnerable to negative-electric charges as he was one shot by Alister Azimuth, and Dark Jak emits tons of negative electricity by his presence alone. Plus his Regenerationn, health stealing hax, invisibility, and teleportation would also give him an edge.

Jak takes this because he's less reliable on stuff that can be taken away, and he's more versatile in different ways of combat. Ratchet needs his weapons and Clank, Jak can do fine without weapons or a sidekick.

I'd even go as far as to say Jak solos. His Dark Blast destroys vehicles and electronics. He could technically one-shot clank and disable some of Ratchet's weapons.
 
The great ZZ said:
I'll let the Death Battle podcast take from here and their newest episode goes on that topic for at least an hour.
Click to expand...
I've heard those before, They focus mainly of his raw firepower and don't really consider how Jak could easily get rid of the weapons and even Clank. Plus most of Ratchet's armors are pickups, it's not like he an pull them out of nowhere and use them whenever.

I like the discussing Death Battle guys, but they focus a bit too much on stats alone and disregard certain attributes that can bypass some statistics. Like how Jak can reflect projectiles by spinning, Dark Jak being invulnerable, Jak's ability to disable armor, weapons, and even Clank with electricity. His forcefields, the ability to steal health. Jak just has so many different ways he can go about this while Ratchet has to rely on raw firepower alone which won't work in most situations.
 
The great ZZ said:
Well there newest episode practically goes in depth about each character starting here
Click to expand...
Like I said, I've seen their discussions on the fight. Sure they went more in depth, but they still focused on stats alone. Just like Death Battle, what they say isn't the end all decision. There is o such thing as a final answer in a VS debate. It all depends on the circumstances of the fight.
 
How are these circumstances determined then?

By whoever set up the match. For example. Saitama loses to Goku here because the match was setup so that Saitama fights Saiyan Saga Goku. However, if the match were setup so that Saitama fights kid Goku, the caped baldy would have no problem and claim victory.

With the circumstances this match is setup in, all their basic gear and equipment, fight to the KO or death, yadda yadda. This are the most common ruleset and the one Death Battle uses.

Jak and Daxter win due to their versatility in combat and their ability to stop time. While Clank is immune to time hax, he is not immune to what Dark Jak can do. Jak's electricity manipulation would obliterate Clank and Ratchet has no time-manipulation immunity of his own so Jak would have no problem taking out Ratchet either. Ratchet's strongest armor (The inferox armor) is something he has to earn and it's a special pickup, not something he can whip out of nowhere, so there isn't anything that can defend him completely against Jak. Ratchet's reliance on his arsenal is his downfall as Jak has several ways to nullify them with his forcefields, regenerations, ability to reflect projectiles, etc. Jak can steal health just by hitting Ratchet, so not only is Ratchet taking damage, but Jak is healing what he has lost. Jak and Daxter claim victory in this basic ruleset.
 
Well in the podcast Ratchet and clank have nano-tech and their weaponary is a pretty big obstacle to overcome and Jak's tranformations have a time limit to them.
 
The great ZZ said:
Well in the podcast Ratchet and clank have nano-tech and their weaponary is a pretty big obstacle to overcome and Jak's tranformations have a time limit to them.
Click to expand...
Nanotech is a pickup healing item that can increase Ratchet's health, like Jak's green eco. It's not technically Regenerationn like Jak with his Light Eco, and while Jak's transformations are limited. It's very easy for him to refill his eco reserves and in cutscenes he seems to be able to transform and do whatever eco powers he likes. The time-limit seems to be a gameplay mechanic only. An example of this would be in Jak 3 when he flies back onto the space station to help Daxter with his Light Flight even though he hadn't transformed into Light Jak.
 
The great ZZ said:
I would like to discuss this further but I have things to do.
Click to expand...
Very well, the note I'll leave you on until you return is that yes Ratchet is ahead in raw power thanks to his wide arsenal. But Jak has too many ways to nullify it and zero ways for Ratchet to nullify Jak's brute strength. Jak has too many ways to defend against ratchet, neutralize Ratchet's offensive tactics, heal any damage he does take from Ratchet, and an easy way to get rid of Clank, leaving Ratchet alone with both Jak and Daxter who are both very deadly in their darker forms. Ratchets reliance on his arsenal is his downfall, especially against someone like Jak who has many ways to get around it.
 
Ahem, let's just say this

WRONG, WRONG,WRONG,WRONG.WRONG,WRONG..

If you look at the blogs that have been created about this fight it's very clear Ratchet wins and it's not even close. It's a Stomp plain and simple. You say that Discussing DB focuses on stats but what about your show Leopold. Can you honestly tell me with a clear concious that honestly Saitama beats Goku. Yeah that's like a Flea vs an Elephant and you blantly ignored feats from Goku that put him way higher then Saitama for the veiws. If you had any real knowledge you would realize just how much Ratchet wins this fight. Also Stats are a key factor to VS Debating and shouldn't be ignored it's like ignoring common sense..oh wait i have you seen you ignore the blantaly obvious in favour of bullshit so this doesn't suprise me.

Please when you discuss a DB like this one please read up on the charcters and look at prediction blogs. All your doing is making yourself look like the bigger fool for not having a proper look at both charcters.

If you would like to get some actual knowledge then please search for a Moh and Star's Blog on the fight. It will help inform you.
 
Malcolm Neill said:
Ahem, let's just say this

WRONG, WRONG,WRONG,WRONG.WRONG,WRONG..

If you look at the blogs that have been created about this fight it's very clear Ratchet wins and it's not even close. It's a Stomp plain and simple. You say that Discussing DB focuses on stats but what about your show Leopold. Can you honestly tell me with a clear concious that honestly Saitama beats Goku. Yeah that's like a Flea vs an Elephant and you blantly ignored feats from Goku that put him way higher then Saitama for the veiws. If you had any real knowledge you would realize just how much Ratchet wins this fight. Also Stats are a key factor to VS Debating and shouldn't be ignored it's like ignoring common sense..oh wait i have you seen you ignore the blantaly obvious in favour of bullshit so this doesn't suprise me.

Please when you discuss a DB like this one please read up on the charcters and look at prediction blogs. All your doing is making yourself look like the bigger fool for not having a proper look at both charcters.

If you would like to get some actual knowledge then please search for a Moh and Star's Blog on the fight. It will help inform you.
Click to expand...
Well, well well, someone's quite angry.

You did nothing to prove your point. You just told me to go read some blogs that say Ratchet wins as if anything that isn't Death Battle is automatically right. The rest was just complaining about my Saitama VS Goku video which I already publicly admitted I was wrong about. And for the views??? How would having Saitama win benefit the views anyways? It's not like I named the video "Saitama stomps Goku." Don't jump to conclusions like that or your knees will start hurting. I never said stats weren't important either. They're just not the deciding factor. Someone wouldn't be able to harm a guy with City-Level durability with a Continent-Level attack made of Fire if the City-Level guy had complete Fire-Resistance. Attributes matter most, and one slight detail could completely negate stats. Like someone with time-stop could effect and defeat someone millions of times faster than them because of that time-stop.

Ratchet can't magically carry every last one of his weapons and armor at one time, for a proper fight they'd both be given the most iconic of their arsenals, and with all of their basic weapons and armory included Jak comes out on top. If Ratchet was given his entire arsenal and infinite ammo, we'd have to be fair and give Jak that sort of environment too, like stick him in a place full of eco vents and powerups. The skills Jak can perform with his eco can easily counter Ratchet's weapons.

Instead of having a "Wrong!!!!!" fit, remember that any battle could end any way depending on the circumstances. There is no wrong answer to a VS debate. Batman could beat Godzilla if Batman was given Dipper and Mabel's flashlight that can change people's sizes. It's stupid, but if that was the circumstance of the fight, Batman could make himself bigger and crush Godzilla. Batman beats Godzilla in that instance. In this very basic and common setup, Jak wins against Ratchet, especially since their powerups and tools are littered around the arena in this post. Jak's powerups respawn pretty quickly after being picked up so could have an infinite pool of Dark Eco and become invincible for nearly the entire duration of the fight as Dark Jak or even instantly heal any damage he does take while not invincible with Green Eco.

There is no need to be so hostile. You make it seem as though you only came here to say "Leopold is dumb" rather than talk about the subject at hand.
 
Malcolm Neill said:
Okay i went too far just please read the blogs on Ratchet vs Jak before you come to your own conculsion
Click to expand...
No worries, I have read them. I'm actually a huge fan of the Discussing Death Battle guys. (My favorite character is Phillip the Phone c: )

There are sometimes where I do completely agree with things they say, like how they debunked Dante VS Bayo. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything they say. Like I agree with what Death Battle said about Snake VS Sam, but Bowser VS Ganon? Not so much...
 
If both characters are composited, then it's a stomp in Ratchet & Clank's favor.

When it comes to Jak's base form with Morph Gun vs Ratchet, Ratchet completely outguns Jak. Everything Jak can do, Ratchet can do, but better, and with more ammo. Ratchet also has superior armor.

Jak's Morph Gun has 12 different settings. 3 per each color mod, effectively giving him 12 different guns. The three gun types per mod share the ammo pool for that respected color, and the ammo pool is fairly limited. Ratchet can hold up to 24 guns. Exactly twice as many as Jak's. Each gun has it's own ammo pool too. If Ratchet has the best of each weapon type, then it's a stomp.

Red Mod:

Jak's Scatter Gun is a shotgun type weapon. It's a pretty solid shotgun, however, Ratchet has the Vulcan Cannon which is a superior shotgun type. It has a faster rate of fire, much longer range, and it can be modded to have acid, electric shock, or freeze.

Jak's Wave Concussor does an AoE attack where it releases a large expanding energy ring on the ground. Ratchet doesn't really have a weapon like this, though so many of the bosses he's faced do have attacks like this. All Ratchet does is jump over the ring.

Jak's Plasmite RPG: A grenade launcher that does standard grenade launcher stuff. Ratchet has the Mini-Nuke which has a larger explosion radius.

Yellow Mod

Jak's Blaster: A blaster with long range and a fairly slow rate of fire. Ratchet's Dual Raptors are superior as they have equal range and a much faster rate of fire. Additionally, the bullets ricochet off of walls and enemies, and the weapong can be equiped with acid or shock mod.

Jak's Beam Reflector: Just like the blaster, except it's bullets richochet off of walls, like Ratchet's Dual Raptors, and it consumes more yellow eco ammo. The richocheting bullets can autotarget enemies. Ratchet's Buzz Blades also do this, but with faster rate of fire.

Jak's Gyro Burster: Deploys a hovering automated drone that fires at enemies. It consumes 50 out of 300 yellow eco ammo, so it can't be spammed. It also doesn't last very long. Ratchet has several weapons like this that can be deployed into the environment that all automatically attack enemies, such as Mini-Turrets, Agents of Doom, Stalker Mines, Rift Ripper, Tornado Gun, Synthenoids etc... They all last longer than this too, and can be used more times.

Blue Mod:

Jak's Vulcan Fury: Like the blaster, but with faster rate of fire and shorter range. Probably equal in rate of fire to Ratchet's Dual Raptors and Buzz Blades, but without the mods, or ricocheting bullets.

Jak's Arc Wielder: Emits a stream of electricity that electricutes enemies. Fairly long range. Ratchet had a weapon like this in the very first game. The Arc Wielder consumes ammo really fast.

Jak's Needle Lazer: Fires a wave of homing needle-like lazers. It's very similar to Ratchet's R.Y.N.O. V, but with far less ammo and less destructive power.

Dark Mod:

Jak's Peace Maker: Fires a powerful homing energy bolt with arcs of electricity. It's like an RPG. Ratchet has an RPG called The Silencer, which fires 3 rockets, and upon explosion, can leave pools of lava in the environment if that mod is placed on it. It'll only harm enemies.

Jak's Mass Inverter: Quite an OP weapon. It creates a field where everything it it's radius is suspended in midair, leaving them helpless. Not sure how Ratchet and Clank could defend against this. Clank can probably just fly away (Clank can fly when he's not on Ratchet, as shown in cutscenes). In any case, Ratchet has a weapon like this as well in the form of the Vortex Grenade. This weapon deploys a black hole in the environment, which suspends enemies in mid air and they orbit around the black hole. Ratchet's Tornado Gun does a similar thing, and he can control the movement of the tornado that's deployed.

Jak's Supernova: A miniture nuclear bomb that releases a powerful explosion that destroys everything in sight. Ratchet's Zodiac also does this, only it can be used more often as it has more ammo capacity. Ratchet's Rynocirator also does this. Ratchet also has a superweapon called the Supernova which causes powerful beams of energy to rain down on the environment killing everything, and this weapon can have an acid mod (as if it needs it). Jak can use Supernova, at most, twice, and if he does, he won't have enough Dark Eco to turn into Dark Jak.

If I were personally setting Ratchet up with 24 weapons, I would give him the following:

- Duel Raptors with Acid Mod (Blaster Type. Bullets ricochet off of walls and enemies)

- Vulcan Cannon with Shock Mod (Shotgun Type. Longest range of it's type in the entire series)

- Stalker Mine Launcher with Mini-Bomb Mod (Mine Type. Mines are invisible and home in on enemies who get near. Upon detonation, release a swarm of miniture bombs that bounce around)

- Quasar Turret Launcher with Freeze Mod (Turret Type. Can deploy up to five, and are the most durable in the series. The Freeze Mod will freeze enemies who are hit)

- Fusion Rifle with Freeze Mod (Sniper Rifle Type)

- Leviathan Flail with Shock Mod (Melee Type)

- The Silencer with Lava Mod (RPG Type)

- Omni-shield Launcher with Brainwash Mod :Environmental Shield Type. Brainwash Mod causes enemies who walk through it to attack each other)

- SuperNova with Acid Mod (Superweapon)

- Zurkon Family (Synthenoid Type)

- Tesla Barriers (Bubble Shield Type)

- Groovatron Glove (Hypnotic Weapon Type)

- Mag-Net Cannon (Unique Weapon Type that traps enemies in an energy net)

- Buzz Blades

- Mini-Nuke (Grenade type)

- Tornado Launcher

- Agents of Dread

- R.Y.N.O. V

- Rift Ripper (Black Hole gun, different from the Vortex Grenade. The black holes in this actually suck in enemies)

- Zodiac

- Any of the Animal Transmutation weapons

- Any of the Flamethrower Types

Jak's saving grace is his Dark and Light Forms. If his Dark form gets invincibility, he still can't defend against a Groovatron, Mag-Net Cannon, Freezing Gun/Mod, Transmutation or Black Hole Gun.

As Light Jak, his most useful power is Flash Freeze, where he slows time dramatically. Clank is the Keeper of Time. His father installed a Quantum Actuator in him which grants him immunity to time manipulation. When Ratchet is with Clank, he's also immune to time manipulation.

http://ratchet.wikia.com/wiki/Clank#Powers_and_abilities

http://ratchet.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_Acuater

As for Jak's other Light Eco powers, they can only be used sparingly as his Light Eco pool is very small. He can heal, put up a bubble sheild, and glide in this form, and as already mentioned, slow time. He can't do all four. He has only enough eco to do maybe two of these things, so he has to choose wisely. But once they're gone, they're gone, and if he's already used Dark Jak at this point, then he's exhausted his only possible trump card.

Lastly, Jak does have other eco powers from Lost Frontier (red, blue, yellow, and green). The good thing is, he can use these powers indefinitely. These powers draw from an eco meter that can be used up, but it'll slowly recharge on it's own without the need to pick up any eco. But these powers aren't even that great.

With the Red Eco powers, he can amp up his melee. He can also emit a large Red Eco bomb that explodes. This bomb is very slow moving though and slow to execute.

With Yellow Eco, he can fire energy blasts like the ones from Precursor Legacy, but they move a bit slower. Pretty solid and fairly useful, but nothing Ratchet & Clank can't handle.

With Blue Eco, he has Eco Reflexes. This is probably his most useful one, though it uses a lot of eco power so it can't be used that frequently. He again, slows down time, though it's not as dramatic as Flash Freeze. Again, Clank is immune to time hax. Although, some argue that this is Jak really just amping up his reflexes, so everything appears slow around him. If I remember correctly, Jak's reflexes are so good during this power up that he can deflect projectiles by punching and kicking them. In which case, Clank could counter with Time Bombs, as well as all the other time based powers he can do with the Chronoscepter, which can also deflect projectiles (it does so by reversing time so as to "rewind" the projectiles).

http://ratchet.wikia.com/wiki/Chronoscepter

With Green Eco, he can put up a bubble shield, much like the one he can put up with Light Eco or Ratchet's Tesla Barriers. This shield lasts exactly 10 seconds. A useful sheild indeed, but it hinders Jak's mobility dramatically. He's able to roll around in it slowly much like a hamster inside a ball, and he can't use any melee attacks while using it. Additionally, the shield has spikes, so it can cause minor harm to enemies who get close. Other then that, he doesn't have much offensive capabilities while this sheild is up, so Ratchet can wait for the 10 seconds to expire before attacking.

http://jakanddaxter.wikia.com/wiki/Eco_skills

Again, he can use these eco powers indefinitely, but very infrequently.

Some other things to note: Despite popular belief, Ratchet is physically very powerful and very durable without any armor or weapons. He's comparable to Jak, are arguably even better than Jak in that catagory. He also has formal martial arts training. Here are some feats from the R&C comic.

Ratchet, without any armor on, gets punched through two metal walls by a giant robot and is completely unharmed.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2ihnl38.png

Ratchet dodges gunfire at close range, tackles a large robot and slams him through two metal walls with the aid of his armor and Hoverboots.

http://i64.tinypic.com/11b2fd3.png

Ratchet, with skill alone, defends against a punch from General Glahm

http://i67.tinypic.com/281tys5.png

General Glahm is later seen one-shotting a large metal robot with one punch.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2pqnq5u.png

Ratchet, with his strength alone, resisted the jaws of a giant monster, the War Gok.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06R8S82H0Bw&feature=youtu.be&t=30

Ratchet survived falling several stories unharmed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx_pWZkeO20&feature=youtu.be&t=1497

With all that said, I think Ratchet takes this. There's some details I left out because it's too much to list. There's Dark Daxter, Alpha Clank form (the one from Full-Frontal Assault where he can transform into this at will), Daxters bug exterminating weapons, Clanks weapons from Secret Agent Clank etc. I've listed every little thing Jak has though. I didn't list everything Ratchet has, such as his super OP and unfair Chameleon Armor, which has 96% damage absorption, and he turns freakin invisible every time he moves! But yeah, he has that too.
 
While I'll agree on the subject of raw firepower from their weapons as Ratchet does outclass Jak there, but much like Jak's eco, if Ratchet doesn't have his weapons, it's over.

As for Skill, Jak's demonstrated much more impressive feats. He's fought of armies of Crimson Guards multiple times while trying to rescue lurkers on a hovercraft through a very crowded city. (2:28)

And at the beginning of the game after being out of practice for 2 entire years, he was still able to break out of a highly guarded prison without any of his weapons or eco.

Jak has also dodged a laser from Sig at point blank range. (See the link on his profile for the speed feat)

Ratchets strength feat that you showed where he held jaws open wasn't his own strength. You can see him keeping them open by holding a bar there. Similar to how when cartoon characters are trying to escape a sharks mouth, they'll prop a wooden plank in its jaws or something.

I hate to use Death Battle's video XD But it's the easiest footage to find of this. At 2:34 Jak pushes over a pillar that's over 3 times as tall as him and it's made out of solid stone. That's a greater physical feat of strength than anything Ratchet has done.

As for durability, Jak has survived much more deadly blows without his forcefields, transformations, and Armor of Mar. He tanks the explosion from beating the final boss in Jak 3 at 11:11

and he survived an explosion of ammo and other explosives that blew him out of a building in Jak 2 at 5:20 and came out less harmed than Ratchet being punched through the walls.

Plus while Ratchet may have some physical durability, he's not immune to things that would effect him internally like electricity. Even with armor on he was one-shot and killed by Alister

Again I agree that Ratchet has more raw power with his weapons, but that's all he has. Jak has weapons, eco, and transformations, and he has been seen easily using his transformations more than once. He activates Dark Jak briefly out of anger when Veger taunts him in Jak 3, he uses his Light Flight to save Daxter in the space station, and he also went into Dark Jak mode to break out of the table he was strapped to.

Ratchet is also much more dependent on Clank than Jak is on Daxter. Without Clank, Ratchet loses some of his mobility and his strongest asset with that being Giant Clank. While Giant Clank would normally be considered outside help, it doesn't really matter if we used him anyways since Jak was able to take out a robot that size in Jak 1, and defeated one even bigger in Jak 3 that had the durability to survive a fall from orbit. And with Jak's many forms of electricity manipulations, he'd be able to one-shot Clank with his Dark Blast which can destroy vehicles made of precursor technology which is the most powerful in Jak's verse.

Ratchet needs Clank, but Jak is fine on his own. Daxter is an added bonus. Ratchet is especially dependent on Clank since he has all the hax including time-stop resistance and he can slow down time himself. But since he'd be an easy kill for Jak, Ratchet loses his trump card entirely. Jak has 2 methods of time-stop with blue eco and light eco, he can reflect projectiles by spinning, heal himself with green or light eco, and use life siphon to steal his opponents health and give it to himself.

  • Arsenal - Ratchet
  • Weaopon Fire-Power - Ratchet
  • Versatility - Jak
  • Physical Strength - Jak
  • Durability - Jak
  • Independence - Jak
  • Hax - Jak
  • Skill - Jak
 
"If Ratchet doens't have his weapons, it's over"

Not a scenario that's gonna happen, so this is irrelevant.

"As for Skill, Jak's demonstrated much more impressive feats. He's fought of armies of Crimson Guards multiple times while trying to rescue lurkers on a hovercraft through a very crowded city."

How is that a more impressive feat when Ratchet fights off armies all the time? More advanced armies at that.

"And at the beginning of the game after being out of practice for 2 entire years, he was still able to break out of a highly guarded prison without any of his weapons or eco."


Ratchet did the same thing in his comic. Difference is, the prison Ratchet was in was floating in space, which makes the task even harder.

"Jak has also dodged a laser from Sig at point blank range."


Nothing indicates it's a laser. All we know is it's an energy based weapon. Ratchet dodges the same thing on a regular basis in his comic, two instances of which I already posted here in my previous post. Did you ignore that?

"At 2:34 Jak pushes over a pillar that's over 3 times as tall as him and it's made out of solid stone."


Yes, he pushed it over. A very tall and very narrow pillar. Pushed it over. He didn't lift it or throw it. He pushed it over. Imagine pushing over a very tall tree that's already been sliced completely through it's trunk. It'll fall easily. It doesn't mean you have superstrenght. All it takes is a little momentum. A normal human could probably do it.

Ratchet slammed a robot through two metal walls. That's a much greater strength feat as he doesn't have the advantage of gravity and balance instability that Jak did in his strength feat.

"Plus while Ratchet may have some physical durability, he's not immune to things that would effect him internally like electricity. Even with armor on he was one-shot and killed by Alister"


You do realize Alister Azimuth was the final boss, right? What makes you think his Praetorian Omniwrench, which emits negative energy and can open wormholes, weak? In the boss fight, it's able to deflect gunfire from the RYNO V. Also, the Praetorian Omniwrench bypasses Nanotech. It's a very hax weapon. Don't underestimate it.


" You can see him keeping them open by holding a bar there"

You mean his Omniwrench? His standard equipment?

There was an instance in that video where he did that, yes. But a few moments before, Ratchet was prying open the beasts mouth with just his hands and feet. That's his own strength. That's at 0:35 of the video. Did you ignore that?

Ratchet also survived Nefarious' Hypernova Defense Laser which is powerful enough to destroy large asteroids as shown at 5:40. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0AC2w3utNc


"Again I agree that Ratchet has more raw power with his weapons, but that's all he has. Jak has weapons, eco, and transformations, and he has been seen easily using his transformations more than once."

That doesn't matter. Everything Jak can do with everything he has, Ratchet can do with his weapons. It doesn't matter if Jak's type of attacks are a transformation or not. It's a moot point.

Let me illustrate what I mean.

Character A has a blaster gun, a teleporting device, and a cloaking device.

Character B has a blaster gun, the power to teleport, and the ability to turn invisible.

They're both the same. Your argument is, "all character A has is his gadgets, while character B has his gadgets and his powers." It doesn't matter. It's a moot point. Ratchet can do more, overall. Yes, it's all in the form of weapons and gadgets, but the sheer amount he can do far exceeds Jak's capabilities.

"Ratchet is also much more dependent on Clank than Jak is on Daxter. Without Clank, Ratchet loses some of his mobility and his strongest asset with that being Giant Clank."

Wrong. Clank is just a much more helpful companion than Daxter is. But Ratchet is not dependent on him. Ratchet went through Deadlocked without Clank being there. He went through most of A Crack in Time without Clank being there. In a Crack in Time, Ratchet had Hoverboots that gave him identical mobility that he usually has with Clank.

"While Giant Clank would normally be considered outside help, it doesn't really matter if we used him anyways since Jak was able to take out a robot that size in Jak 1, and defeated one even bigger in Jak 3 that had the durability to survive a fall from orbit."

I never brought up Giant Clank. I brought up his Semi-Giant Form from Full-Frontal Assault, which he can transform into at will without the need of a pad.

" He activates Dark Jak briefly out of anger when Veger taunts him in Jak 3, he uses his Light Flight to save Daxter in the space station, and he also went into Dark Jak mode to break out of the table he was strapped to."

These are cutscenes. There's no telling how much eco he canonically had in reserves at these particular moments. But it doesn't indicate he can do this whenever he wants. And that last one you mentioned was when he first obtained his Dark Jak form.

" Ratchet is especially dependent on Clank since he has all the hax including time-stop resistance and he can slow down time himself."

This is literally the only thing that Ratchet has to depend on from Clank. But hey, this is R&C vs J&D, not R vs J.

"But since he'd be an easy kill for Jak, Ratchet loses his trump card entirely."

Or not, considering he was on Ratchet's back when Ratchet survived the Hypernova Defense Laser. He also survived a violent shipcrash at the beginning of the first game.

"Jak has 2 methods of time-stop with blue eco and light eco, he can reflect projectiles by spinning, heal himself with green or light eco, and use life siphon to steal his opponents health and give it to himself."

Jak doesn't stop time. He slows it down. Clank can reverse time, fix time anomilies, and slow it down. He can also deflect projectiles with the Chromosceptor. He can only use Light Eco twice at best. And he can only use green eco sparingly, not to mention he can't do anything else while he's healing, so he's open to attacks. Life syphon specifically steals Green Eco. Ratchet and Clank have no Green Eco to steal.

  • "Versatility - Jak"
How is that so when Ratchet can do everythign Jak can do and more? The only thing Ratchet can't do is time hax.

  • "Physical Strength - Jak"

I disagree considering what was shown. Pushing over a very tall pillar means it has a small base and low balance stability. A little push and gravity does the rest.

"Durability - Jak"

Jak didn't survive an asteroid destroying plasma ray.

"Independence - Jak"

More like 'Superior companion - Ratchet'.

"Hax - Jak"

Hax that the opposing team is immune to, while Jak can't do anything against Ratchet's hax such as the Groovitron, Black Hole Gun, Freezing Mods, Transmutation, or Hypnosis.

"Skill - Jak"

Jak has no record of formal martial arts training. Ratchet canonically has learned martial arts.
 
"Not a scenario that's gonna happen so it's irrelevant. Ratchet can do with his weapons what Jak can do with his eco skills so it's a moot point."

Never say never. Don't we see Ratchet without most of his weapons at the start of every game? Jak is more than strong enough knock them out of Ratchet's grip or yank them away. He can reflect projectiles with a spin, and with his durability, it shouldn't be to hard to send some of Ratchet's shots right back at him. The point was that Ratchet relies on his arsenal. Get rid of it and he loses everything since his abilities are dependent on the weapon he has, whereas if you get rid of Jak's weapons, he still has eco and transformations as all his abilities are not restricted to one specific part that you can get rid of.


"How is that skill more impressive than Ratchet? He fights off more advanced armies and even broke out of a prison in space"

The one I mentioned was just that specific event. He handles these armies all throughout Jak 2 and 3, and he successfully infiltrates and foils enemy schemes in their strongholds multiple times throughout these games. Plus Jak outran the vacuum of space as it was tearing apart a gigantic space station after it was hit by a laser and managed to escape before it exploded.


"You do realize Alister Azimuth was the final boss, right? What makes you think his Praetorian Omniwrench, which emits negative energy and can open wormholes, weak?"

Well there is the fact that it didn't even KO a helper bot earlier in the game, and the fact that we don't see it do that much damage when Clank goes back to save Ratchet from the same shot as it misses which shows Alister didn't even hit Ratchet with its full power.


"I never brought up Giant Clank. I brought up his Semi-Giant Form from Full-Frontal Assault, which he can transform into at will without the need of a pad. He also survived a violent shipcrash at the beginning of the first game"

The point of bringing up Giant Clank was to show that Jak could handle Clank's most powerful form. He wouldn't have much trouble with Alpha Clank. Again, during Jak 3's final boss, Jak in base form could handle a mechanical beast 10 times Giant Clanks size with the durability to survive a fall from orbit and remain fully functional. Clank's shipcrash survival feat is no greater than Jak 3's final boss. Clank's arm was also greatly damaged from the shockwave of a very small meteorite blowing him back.

Nothing is stopping Jak from nearly one-shotting Clank. Also you mentioned the Hypernova defense laser. That literally only happens if you get hit during gameplay. Neither of the two are actually hit with it during the plot and cutscenes. If they are, then show me. Otherwise including that is like saying spikes always kill Mega Man no matter what despite his durability feat, or Link can survive getting stabbed because he doesn't instantly die from Ganondorf slicing him in a final boss battle, or Krillin has Multi-Galaxy durability because Goku punching him in the DBZ games isn't an instant kill.


"Clank can reverse time, fix time anomilies, and slow it down. He can also deflect projectiles with the Chromosceptor"

Clank no longer has the chronoscepter. He gave it to Sigmund remember? He no longer has time related abilities.


  • Arsenal - Ratchet
  • Weapon Firepower - Ratchet
  • Versatility - Still Jak (Jak's abilities are not restricted to one part of himself whereas Ratchet - Weapons = Super dead Ratchet)
  • Physical Strength - Still Jak (The pillar is still more than we've seen Ratchet do physically. Jak still has better reaction time with Eco reflexes)
  • Durability - Still Jak (Using gameplay? Really? That's just sad... Jak still has this point)
  • Independence - Still Jak (Clank's most useful form would be considered outside help, and he no longer has time abilities as he gave the chronoscepter to Sigmund and no longer owns it)
  • Hax - Still Jak (Read independence. Clank lost his time hax)
  • Skill - Still Jak (Simply knowing a fighting style is not equal to skill. Jak's countless displays of breaking into enemy strongholds, breaking out of enemy strongholds, and being able to handle large swarms and armies on a regular basis helps him keep this point)
 
"Never say never. Don't we see Ratchet without most of his weapons at the start of every game? Jak is more than strong enough knock them out of Ratchet's grip or yank them away. He can reflect projectiles with a spin, and with his durability, it shouldn't be to hard to send some of Ratchet's shots right back at him."

If we're starting out the scenario with Ratchet with no weapons, then that changes the premise. My argument is a composite Ratchet & Clank wins against a composite Jak & Daxter. That's what I'm arguing. If you attempt to shift the debate into a scenario where Ratchet starts off with no weapons, then I'm gonna assume you agree that a composite Ratchet & Clank wins against a composite Jak & Daxter.

Jak is gonna knock 24 guns out of Ratchet's hand? Jak is gonna deflect a swarm of rockets from the R.Y.N.O V? Jak is gonna deflect a black hole with his fists? Jak is gonna deflect invisible homing Stalker Mines that explode on impact? Jak is gonna deflect transmutation from the sheep ray?

Eco Reflex won't last long enough to deflect even 1% of everything. It'll last 10 or so seconds, while the R.Y.N.O alone can have the trigger be held down for over a minute before it runs out. Clank can deflect projectiles indefinitely with the Chromosceptor.

But if we're talking about the possibility of one of the opponent's losing their gun, well.... Jak technically has 1 gun with 12 settings. If he loses that, he loses the bulk of his arsenal. I don't see Jak knocking away 24 of Ratchet's weapons, especially if it reaches the point where he loses his Morph Gun.

"The point was that Ratchet relies on his arsenal. Get rid of it and he loses everything since his abilities are dependent on the weapon he has, whereas if you get rid of Jak's weapons, he still has eco and transformations as all his abilities are not restricted to one specific part that you can get rid of."

Good luck getting rid of Ratchet's 24 weapons, especially if it reaches a point where Jak loses his Morph Gun before that.

"He handles these armies all throughout Jak 2 and 3, and he successfully infiltrates and foils enemy schemes in their strongholds multiple times throughout these games."

Wow... incredible! Damn... wish Ratchet would have done those thi... are you freakin' kidding me right now? What video game hero doesn't do that? Typical cliche story of good guy beating the big baddy. What else do you have?

"outran the vacuum of space"

That doesn't even make sense. What else did he do? Arm-wrestled the vacuume of space?

All I'm seeing is him resisting heavy winds which isn't that impressive, even if it's due to a breech from a spaceship in space.

Ratchet resisted the pull of a wormhole.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/3536o0n.jpg

""Well there is the fact that it didn't even KO a helper bot earlier in the game, and the fact that we don't see it do that much damage when Clank goes back to save Ratchet from the same shot as it misses which shows Alister didn't even hit Ratchet with its full power."

It's clear the power can vary based on how powerful Alister wants it to be. The thing is capable of an array of abilities. Alister used it in war, so it's obviously a powerful weapon.

"He wouldn't have much trouble with Alpha Clank. Again, during Jak 3's final boss, Jak in base form could handle a mechanical beast 10 times Giant Clanks size with the durability to survive a fall from orbit and remain fully functional."

Clank, in his base-form, is durable enough to survive an asteroid destroying ray. So already, in his base form, has greater durability than the final boss of Jak 3. He also survived a crash from orbit at the beginning of the series... in his base form!

"Nothing is stopping Jak from nearly one-shotting Clank. Also you mentioned the Hypernova defense laser. That literally only happens if you get hit during gameplay. Neither of the two are actually hit with it during the plot and cutscenes. If they are, then show me. Otherwise including that is like saying spikes always kill Mega Man no matter what despite his durability feat, or Link can survive getting stabbed because he doesn't instantly die from Ganondorf slicing him in a final boss battle."

There's things, story wise, that contradict Mega Man getting hurt by spikes. If he were to never show feats in cutscenes that raise his known durability, then the spikes would be valid.

"Clank no longer has the chronoscepter. He gave it to Sigmund remember? He no longer has time related abilities."

Again, my argument revolves around compositing.

Jak didn't have Dark or Light in Lost Frontier, nor did he have his Morph Gun, but rather, he had that cheap knock-off known as the Gunstaff which only had 4 generic settings. You really wanna go that route? No OP Supernova, no Mass Inverter, no Needle Lazer.

By the way, Clank's time-hax immunity is due to a Quantum Actuator being installed into him. It has nothing to do with the Chronoscepter.

With all that said, none of that is an argument against my claim. My claim is, if all four characters are composited, then Ratchet and Clank wins. That's my claim. Do you agree with that claim or no?

And last but not least, above all else, Jak still can't do anything against Ratchet's hax. If Ratchet wants to, he can pull out the Groovitron at the start of the match, followed by RYNO to the face. Or Vortex Grenade followed by RYNO to the face. Or Animal Transmutation followed by RYNO to the face. Or Freeze Mod followed by RYNO to the face. Or Mag-Net Cannon followed by RYNO to the face.
 
"If we're starting out the scenario with Ratchet with no weapons, then that changes the premise"

Again missing the point. You were implying that Ratchet is never without his weapons and can never ever be without his weapons as if they're glued to him. My point with that was to simply state that it is possible to for Jak to get rid of Ratchets weapons with his speed and power. And yes, Jak does only have 1 weapon, but if Ratchet gets rid of it, it still doesn't matter. He has eco, transformations, and his natural abilities. Jak is physically stronger, especially with Red Eco which doubles his strength. Step 1. Slow down time. Step 2. Yank Ratchet's guns away. Daxter could even help him take stuff.


"Jak is gonna knock 24 guns out of Ratchet's hand? Jak is gonna deflect a swarm of rockets from the R.Y.N.O V? Jak is gonna deflect a black hole with his fists? Jak is gonna deflect invisible homing Stalker Mines that explode on impact? Jak is gonna deflect transmutation from the sheep ray?"

Again, you're saying "Jak can't" without proof. NONE of Ratchet's weapons surpass Jak's durability, not even the Omega Ryno V, so theoretically yes he could deflect them. Especially with his speed enhancements, base speed, reaction time, shields, time-slow down, etc. Don't treat Jak like a sitting duck who won't do anything. You at least hear me mention how Jak would have to do this and this and that before he beats Ratchet, like slow down time, get rid of his weapons, yadda yadda yadda. You don't hear me saying "Oh Light Jak flies Ratchet to a pool of lava and drops him in, the end"


"Wow... incredible! Damn... wish Ratchet would have done those thi... are you freakin' kidding me right now? What video game hero doesn't do that? Typical cliche story of good guy beating the big baddy. What else do you have?"

Something tells me you're getting a bit peeved. Try to cool down and be less hostile. Of course every game character does this. The reason it's so special for Jak is because it's a large focal point in the plot. Several times he's cornered while buckets of enemies pour out of ships and from behind corners. Remember in Kingdom Hearts 2 when Sora single-handedly fought a swarm of 1000 heartless and how insignificant the other swarms are compared to that one. That's Jak's case. His swarms are much larger and much more bountiful than the swarms Ratchet fights, and Jak can clear the screen of these swarms with the dark bomb.


"Ratchet resisted the pull of a wormhole."

That's not resisting....... he held on for dear life. Mabel Pines held onto a pole with a button when Grunkle Stan's wormhole opened up and didn't get sucked in, I guess that automatically means she could stand her ground and not move an inch against its pull. You can see how powerful the winds were that Jak was resisting. It was tearing the entire space station apart, ripping up metal, destroying it with the fierce winds.


"It's clear the power can vary based on how powerful Alister wants it to be. The thing is capable of an array of abilities. Alister used it in war, so it's obviously a powerful weapon."

That still doesn't change the fact that he hit Ratchet with a significantly weaker shot than his weapons full power. Plus since negative charges bypass his armor, Dark Jak's presence alone should send a chill down Ratchet's spine as Dark Jak is constantly radiating with dark electrical currents.


"Clank, in his base-form, is durable enough to survive an asteroid destroying ray. So already, in his base form, has greater durability than the final boss of Jak 3. He also survived a crash from orbit at the beginning of the series... in his base form!"

There's already a contradiction. RATCHET. There's things contradicting Ratchet surviving that asteroid destroying ray, like I just mentioned before with him being killed by Alister's attack. Look at the size of the crater Clank's crash makes. That's Small Building Level at best. He also didn't even remain fully functional after a shockwave from a tiny meteorite hitting the ground. It broke his arm.

Those 2 instances are not enough to surpass Jak's attack potency and most certainly not enough to surpass the asteroid destroying ray. He can still be one shot by some of Jak's attacks. Plus many of Jak's attacks are electricity based which isn't healthy for Clank as it could easily short circuit the little guy.


"Again, my argument revolves around compositing.

Jak didn't have Dark or Light in Lost Frontier, nor did he have his Morph Gun, but rather, he had that cheap knock-off known as the Gunstaff which only had 4 generic settings. You really wanna go that route? No OP Supernova, no Mass Inverter, no Needle Lazer.

By the way, Clank's time-hax immunity is due to a Quantum Actuator being installed into him. It has nothing to do with the Chronoscepter."

Jak didn't transform in lost frontier to save eco because there was an eco shortage that they fixed by the end of the game which should obviously allow him to transform again. It's the plot, and in Ratchet and Clank's plot, he gave the chronoscepter away and never used it again. As for his time-hax immunity, while he still has it without the chronoscepter, he still wouldn't be able to do anything to Jak. He's not strong enough.
 
D180 said:
I vote for Ratchet & Clank based off reasons stated above.
Click to expand...
Why? He's trying to use gameplay footage as an example of durability, he hasn't shown any other feats that outclass Jak and Daxter, and he's doing nothing but saying "Jak can't do this" without any proof while I've continued to prove him wrong. Even when he had to dig around and pull examples from comics that I'm not even sure whether they are canon or not, they still didn't surpass anything Jak has done.
 
"And yes, Jak does only have 1 weapon, but if Ratchet gets rid of it, it still doesn't matter. He has eco, transformations, and his natural abilities."

His Light and Dark Eco run out fast. Jak is the one who can lose everything far more easily than Ratchet. Jak has 1 gun that he can lose. And he has Dark and Light Eco that run out fast. His other Eco Powers from Lost Frontier can only be used infrequently due to the slow recharge, and only one of them is much better than an okay power. 90% of the duration of this match, he won't be using Eco Reflex due to short duration and infrequent use.

"Again, you're saying "Jak can't" without proof. NONE of Ratchet's weapons surpass Jak's durability, not even the Omega Ryno V, so theoretically yes he could deflect them."

Jak has never shown the reflexes to deflect a swarm of rockets. At best, he'll be able to do it for 10 seconds while Eco Reflex is activated. Otherwise, he'll die once it runs out.

And again, he ain't deflecting a black hole, invisible stalker mines, or transmutation gun.

"Something tells me you're getting a bit peeved. Try to cool down and be less hostile. Of course every game character does this. The reason it's so special for Jak is because it's a large focal point in the plot. Several times he's cornered while buckets of enemies pour out of ships and from behind corners."

That doesn't sound all that special. Still sounds like typical hero defeats typical badguy.

"That's not resisting....... he held on for dear life. Mabel Pines held onto a pole with a button when Grunkle Stan's wormhole opened up and didn't get sucked in, I guess that automatically means she could stand her ground and not move an inch against its pull. You can see how powerful the winds were that Jak was resisting. It was tearing the entire space station apart, ripping up metal, destroying it with the fierce winds."

I dunno who Mabel Pines is. And you apparently don't know physics too well. No one can willingly "resist" getting pulled by winds just by standing, unless they're capable of flight. Otherwise, it depends entirely on the person's weight. If they're too light, they'll get pulled by winds. It doesn't matter how strong or durable they are. So Jak not getting pulled by winds simply tells me that the winds weren't that strong.

"That still doesn't change the fact that he hit Ratchet with a significantly weaker shot than his weapons full power. Plus since negative charges bypass his armor, Dark Jak's presence alone should send a chill down Ratchet's spine as Dark Jak is constantly radiating with dark electrical currents."

Wow, what a load of speculation. How do you even infer that negative energy = dark energy? I see zero reason to assume they're the same thing. They're not even the same thing in real life (negative energy is theoretical), and negative energy in Ratchet & Clank is based off of actual theoretical negative energy since the series takes a lot of inspiration from science. Negative energy is what's theorised to make wormholes possible, and in Ratchet & Clank, it's used to make a wormhole with the help of the Praetroian Wrench. Yes, it's the same wormhole you just saw. THAT was made by Alister's wrench (in conjunction with a crystal). Dark Eco, on the other hand, is a completely made up magical energy. It has no relationship with real life dark energy or negative energy.


"Look at the size of the crater Clank's crash makes. That's Small Building Level at best. He also didn't even remain fully functional after a shockwave from a tiny meteorite hitting the ground. It broke his arm."

You're comparing beginning series Clank to another instances that happened 5 or so games later. The character's canonically get Nanotech upgrades that increase their natural durability. That's like saying Goku fighting Beerus is inconsistent because he had trouble with Raditz.

And as I've said before, Alister's wrench is capable of variable types of power. Quite simply, you have no idea if it were a strong attack or a weak attack that killed Ratchet. But we do know it's a powerful all-in-one weapon.

"Jak didn't transform in lost frontier to save eco because there was an eco shortage that they fixed by the end of the game which should obviously allow him to transform again."

We don't see him get it back. And if he did get it back, there's no telling what his abilities are since his Dark Abilities went through a change from Jak 2 to Jak 3. He may have reverted to a point where he has to re-earn all his Dark and Light abilities like he did in is previous two adventures. And he still has no Morph Gun, so his arsenal is complete shit.

And last but not least (I'll keep saying this every time since you're blatantly ignoring it). Jak has zero defense against Ratchet's hax. The point is, Ratchet is at completely liberty to just end this right when it begins. He can immediately bust out the Groovitron followed by transmutation, followed by RYNO V to the face. Or any of his other hax, durability-bypassing weapons, followed by RYNO V to the face.
 
LeopoldTheBrave said:
D180 said:
I vote for Ratchet & Clank based off reasons stated above.
Click to expand...
Why? He's trying to use gameplay footage as an example of durability, he hasn't shown any other feats that outclass Jak and Daxter, and he's doing nothing but saying "Jak can't do this" without any proof while I've continued to prove him wrong. Even when he had to dig around and pull examples from comics that I'm not even sure whether they are canon or not, they still didn't surpass anything Jak has done.
Click to expand...


I own the comic and read the entire thing. There was no digging around on my part. I screencapped them from Comixology.com, an e-book based comic store. I can pull any page I want from the comic series. And it's written by the senior writer of the entire game series. It's canon.

Lost Frontier, on the other hand, wasn't even made by Naughty Dog.
 
Lost Frontier, on the other hand, wasn't even made by Naughty Dog.

It's still canon though, similar to how Wrath of Cortex and Twinsanity aren't made by Naughty Dog, but it's still part of Crash's official canon. Whether the comics are canon or not still doesn't change that what you've shown doesn't come close to what I've shown for Jak and Daxter. I've been showing how Jak can beat both Ratchet and Clank. I've only had to bring up Daxter once so far, and I didn't even mention Dark Daxter when I did so.


"His Light and Dark Eco run out fast. Jak is the one who can lose everything far more easily than Ratchet. Jak has 1 gun that he can lose. And he has Dark and Light Eco that run out fast. His other Eco Powers from Lost Frontier can only be used infrequently due to the slow recharge, and only one of them is much better than an okay power. 90% of the duration of this match, he won't be using Eco Reflex due to short duration and infrequent use."

Again, we've only seen these limits used in gameplay. It's like saying Bayonetta's witch time only lasts for mere seconds because of gameplay. We've seen Jak use Light and Dark eco powers in cutscenes without and recent exposure to Light and Dark eco, like with him saving Daxter, yadda yadda.


"Jak has never shown the reflexes to deflect a swarm of rockets. At best, he'll be able to do it for 10 seconds while Eco Reflex is activated. Otherwise, he'll die once it runs out.

And again, he ain't deflecting a black hole, invisible stalker mines, or transmutation gun."

Ratchet's black hole doesn't behave anything remotely close to a real black hole. Jak should most definitely be able to resist transmutation as well. He's survived being pumped full of Dark Eco as torture for 2 years. Dark Eco is what changed Daxter into an ottsel and it vaporizes most other things it touches. Plus he'd definitely be able to reflect all that stuff you've mentioned. His durability even without an armor or transformations exceed what Ratchet's weapons can output. Plus Jak's been bombarded by several enemies with rapid gunfire, explosives, etc. on multiple occasions without the need of eco reflex. But for some reason you still see it as "Every game character does that" so it apparently doesn't count to you?


"I dunno who Mabel Pines is. And you apparently don't know physics too well. No one can willingly "resist" getting pulled by winds just by standing, unless they're capable of flight. Otherwise, it depends entirely on the person's weight. If they're too light, they'll get pulled by winds. It doesn't matter how strong or durable they are. So Jak not getting pulled by winds simply tells me that the winds weren't that strong."

I was using Gravity Falls' whole wormhole scenario as a comparison. Again, Ratchet was hanging on for dear life. It wasn't his strength, it was whatever he was holding onto. It if had broken off, Ratchet would've been sucked in. Jak is still physically superior.


"Wow, what a load of speculation. How do you even infer that negative energy = dark energy? I see zero reason to assume they're the same thing. They're not even the same thing in real life (negative energy is theoretical), and negative energy in Ratchet & Clank is based off of actual theoretical negative energy since the series takes a lot of inspiration from science. Negative energy is what's theorised to make wormholes possible, and in Ratchet & Clank, it's used to make a wormhole with the help of the Praetroian Wrench. Yes, it's the same wormhole you just saw. THAT was made by Alister's wrench (in conjunction with a crystal). Dark Eco, on the other hand, is a completely made up magical energy. It has no relationship with real life dark energy or negative energy."

I wouldn't be going "what a load of speculation" if I were you since you had that whole thing about "maybe Jak didn't get his transformations back at the end of Lost Frontier." Jak's electricity is capable of clearing the entire visible area of enemies, and it destroys vehicles in one shot. Plus again, you're still ignoring that the shot we see isn't the weapons full power. We see the same shot miss when he fires it again at Clank, and see what a puny explosion it makes when Clank goes back in time to save Ratchet. We DO have proof that's it's a weak shot. You're ignoring it despite the fact I've repeated it several times.


"You're comparing beginning series Clank to another instances that happened 5 or so games later. The character's canonically get Nanotech upgrades that increase their natural durability. That's like saying Goku fighting Beerus is inconsistent because he had trouble with Raditz."

We've seen Goku handle stronger hits than that one Raditz has done. That crash is the most we've seen Clank endure, and you can't just assume the nanotech magically upgrades them past Jak's attack potency. Especially since you're the one complaining about "speculation." If Clank has endured harsher than that spaceship crash, then prove it. I don't know why you keep bringing it up if you don't think it's his strongest durability feat.


I already debunked your little Lost Frontier claim about Jak not being able to transform. You were speculating there even when you told me not to speculate, and I never said Ratchet wouldn't be able to use his weapons at all during the fight. I simply said Jak could easily take them away. Ratchet has no way to take Jak's eco.


"And last but not least (I'll keep saying this every time since you're blatantly ignoring it). Jak has zero defense against Ratchet's hax. The point is, Ratchet is at completely liberty to just end this right when it begins. He can immediately bust out the Groovitron followed by transmutation, followed by RYNO V to the face. Or any of his other hax, durability-bypassing weapons, followed by RYNO V to the face."

I haven't been ignoring it. Jak can reflect the projectiles of Jak's weapons as none of them surpass his durability and the groovitron is no exception as it doesn't even do real damage. It just simply makes you dance. Jak could easily send it back and have Ratchet and Clank be the ones getting down with their bad selves. I debunked your claim about Jak having zero defense against Ratchet's hax near the beginning of this response as Ratchet's black hole doesn't behave anything like a real black hole and it's a simple BFR that would send Jak to another dimension if he were hit. It's not like it'd kill him.


You've contradicted yourself many times in this response with your whole "to speculate or not to speculate" dilemma that you have going on. You still continue with the "Jak can't" without any proof.
 
Starscream011 said:
Will you just shut up already?
Everyone one of your little stupid claims about Jak and Daxter have been proved false. They even won the official death battle you know that? So just deal with the fact the better duo won
Click to expand...
Jak won? I assumed Rachet was gonna win with the new movie coming out and all.
 
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