Izanagi must function as a manipulation of causality

[Skyloly]

Izanagi as Causality Manipulation

I will start with the case of Uchiha Madara's death. In the case of Madara's death, this event can be negated by Izanagi. We must recognize that death is a definitive consequence, similar to an effect, and it occurs due to the battle which serves as the cause of that effect. Madara's use of Izanagi and subsequent revival clearly negates this effect retroactively. The core of this is an action that cancels a manifest effect, such as A: Madara dies becoming B: Madara lives. A case like this falls into the category of causality manipulation.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

This aligns with what Itachi explained to Sasuke, where the user can "choose any effect from any cause" or "erase the result of any cause." This is consistent with the criteria for causality manipulation, where the user can "divert any cause to any effect" or "a particular cause yields no effect."

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Therefore, this is not merely a subjective influence on reality, as the user can redo the cause. A cause that leads to an undesirable effect is "redone" to produce and choose the desired effect from the original cause.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The definition of Causality Manipulation does not always mean having to erase the cause, such as Madara making his fight with Hashirama never happen, or Obito during his battle against Konan. This ability also encompasses the alteration of the manipulated impact or effect, which is like changing, nullifying, or manipulating the impact or consequences of an established or already occurred cause retrospectively. This goes beyond local reality because the altered impact is reintegrated back into the main timeline. This is what happened in the battle between Obito and Konan.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The nature of the Yin-Yang Release should also strengthen the claim I am validating for Izanagi. This technique was used by Hagoromo to create everything, especially the Tailed Beasts—the physical form of energy. This inherently includes the ability to impose spiritual will onto the physical world to rewrite the laws of existence at a fundamental level. Therefore, if Banbutsu Sōzō (Creation of All Things) can create entities and reality from nothing, which also causally cancels and replaces the effects of action-reaction, then its practical version, Izanagi, which turns death into life or reverses any cause to any effect, must inherently operate at a level capable of manipulating the structure of reality, including the cause-and-effect relationship itself. And what Obito said literally describes a reality rewrite driven by spiritual will. So, when you impose an imaginative reality—like "we did not die or get injured"—onto the physical reality where you were actually dead or injured, you are essentially canceling the law of causality that applies at that moment.

Creation of All Things Technique

The Creation of All Things Technique was a technique possessed by Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki that allowed him to turn fantasy into reality. The process he used is explained to have initially involved the administration of imagination, and the spiritual energy which forms the basis of Yin chakra to...

naruto.fandom.com

 

[Skyloly]

@Damage3245 could you please call out some of the people who contribute more here, especially the people who frequently contribute to the naruto threads

 

[Lilybitdun]

@Damage3245 could you please call out some of the people who contribute more here, especially the people who frequently contribute to the naruto threads

You aren't able to ping
I'd recommend asking Naruto verse members on their message walls

 

[Skyloly]

Anda tidak dapat melakukan ping
Saya sarankan untuk bertanya kepada anggota ayat Naruto di dinding pesan mereka

Thank you for your suggestion, I will just wait for people to come here.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

 

[Greatsage13th]

?

 

[Syncornize]

Izanagi as Causality Manipulation

i personally disagree. Izanagi doesn't nullify an entire event, and consequently both cause and effect; it only makes an effect “imaginary.”

Causality Manip says:
“the user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect.”
Izanagi only works on an effect, such as damage or a fatal attack, it doesn't erase the attack itself, as can be seen.


“undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely”
It has never been shown to invert cause and effect, nor to explicitly separate the two. Nullifying an effect does not mean separating it from its cause — it does not make them two distinct things.


“making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect”
It isn't included that the cause or the effect manifest or occur. Izanagi “remedies” or nullifies the effect after it has already happened, whereas for the requirements of causality manipulation, the manifestation itself should be impossible. Otherwise, simply preventing any kind of damage from being taken would qualify.


As explained, the event becomes a dream; although not real, it is still an event essentially very similar to the concept of shifting the target. Dreams, even if they do not manifest as actions or people, are still part of reality.


Danzo’s statement perfectly reflects the definition of Subjective Reality.

 

[YungManzi]

I mean, Uryu’s antithesis doesn’t affect attacks at all, only effects. And its listed as CM.

I don’t see why it can’t just be both. Or causality manipulation via subjective reality. I don’t think it matters tbh.

 

[Skyloly]

I mean, Uryu’s antithesis doesn’t affect attacks at all, only effects. And its listed as CM.

I don’t see why it can’t just be both. Or causality manipulation via subjective reality. I don’t think it matters tbh.

it should work

 

[Skyloly]

i personally disagree. Izanagi doesn't nullify an entire event, and consequently both cause and effect; it only makes an effect “imaginary.”

Causality Manip says:
“the user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect.”
Izanagi only works on an effect, such as damage or a fatal attack, it doesn't erase the attack itself, as can be seen.


“undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely”
It has never been shown to invert cause and effect, nor to explicitly separate the two. Nullifying an effect does not mean separating it from its cause — it does not make them two distinct things.


“making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect”
It isn't included that the cause or the effect manifest or occur. Izanagi “remedies” or nullifies the effect after it has already happened, whereas for the requirements of causality manipulation, the manifestation itself should be impossible. Otherwise, simply preventing any kind of damage from being taken would qualify.


As explained, the event becomes a dream; although not real, it is still an event essentially very similar to the concept of shifting the target. Dreams, even if they do not manifest as actions or people, are still part of reality.


Danzo’s statement perfectly reflects the definition of Subjective Reality.

No, people do think it's like a dream for the user who feels it, but it's not a real dream, you also think so. You also can't just rely on one case that has happened, Itachi explains in as much detail as possible how Izanagi works, considering that Itachi is one of the people who has studied Jutsu (izanagi and izanami), it is explained that the user can re-cause that has a negative impact on the user to choose a favorable outcome for the user, try to observe again what Itachi explained. If an action (Cause) produces a fatal or undesirable result (Negative Impact), Izanagi is activated to deny the validity of the Cause. So this jutsu not only deceives Indra but also visually rearranges the reality that has just happened, treating the detrimental causal chain as an "illusion" that never happened in the real world, allowing the user to re-cause, choose a different action, and thus produce a favorable impact.

The databook states that the user has the capability to temporarily eliminate an unfavorable reality and replace it with a projection of a favorable reality. It is necessary to understand that this reality is not limited to consequences (effects) alone, but must also encompass and process its roots (causes)."

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[Saqphire]

It's hilarious how Itachi's model of Izanagi is basically a very similar picture to the example picture of a causal event in the Causality Manipulation page, yet Izanagi isn't listed as such. The several statements talking about changing the effect from the cause aswell makes it blatant aswell, obvious agree

 

[Skyloly]

It's hilarious how Itachi's model of Izanagi is basically a very similar picture to the example picture of a causal event in the Causality Manipulation page, yet Izanagi isn't listed as such. The several statements talking about changing the effect from the cause aswell makes it blatant aswell, obvious agree

so you agree with the thread, Thanks

 

[Syncornize]

The databook states that the user has the capability to temporarily eliminate an unfavorable reality and replace it with a projection of a favorable reality. It is necessary to understand that this reality is not limited to consequences (effects) alone, but must also encompass and process its roots (causes)."

this is the same sentence from Obito when he explains the ability, listing only the effects such as attacks and damage, not the causes. One of the scans I linked, like all the others showing the use of Izanagi, doesn"t erase or eliminate the attack, which is still visible after the ability’s use and the “rewinding” of the damage. Obito, just like Danzo, are extremely reliable sources. Danzo has forensic knowledge thanks to Orochimaru, and Obito thanks to Madara.

this is false, Itachi explains the same thing never mentioning the cause as a “factor” for Izanagi. If Izanagi had these abilities, then Izanami shouldn’t work, since Izanagi should be able to erase the causes and thus nullify the ability.

this statement from Itachi that you linked says:
"if you try to change the results with izanagi"

this one:
"allows the caster to choose their own ending"

and this one:
"you can just erase that outcame"

All these statements refer to the final result and not to the beginning of everything. Adding the previous points, from my point of view, it does not qualify as causality manipulation.

It is necessary to understand that this reality is not limited to consequences (effects) alone, but must also encompass and process its roots (causes)."

If you generate an attack (cause) and I receive it (effect), by rewriting only the latter I can avoid taking any kind of damage, and the cause would still exist it simply missed me. Your reasoning assumes that to operate on the effect or on reality itself, one must necessarily operate on the cause, which is false.
I’ll leave it at that because I believe I’ve already stated my position, even though I think the Banbutsu Sōzō no Jutsu isn’t anything like what you claim and isn’t really that relevant either for the thread. It’s accepted only as subjective reality, and that’s fine.

 

[Zefra3011]

lol, it's subjective reality