Is this enough for tier 1?

[Rikimarox2]

I believe I have an inkling that it is enough, however I want to confirm it before I make the actual CRT.

The novel is Lightning is the only Way.

In the novels, Energy is Infinite, and is source of everything:

'There is no Energy in this force!'
'The very fundamentals are different!'
This was the greatest difference between this force and all the others.
The highest Heaven's Cosmos was built with Energy.
Everything was built with Energy.
Matter was built with Energy.
Souls were built with Energy.
Gravity was built with Energy.
Time was built with Energy.
Space was built with Energy.
Even the very Laws themselves were built with Energy. ~Chapter 1010, Lightning is the Only Way

Time, Space, Gravity, Souls, etc... were all made with Energy, and everything was also made with laws. That includes the cosmos itself.

Now this, by itself, doesn't really much. However, the god tier of the verse, Orthar (Considered the Highest Heaven, and created literally everything in the Cosmos/Universe of the novel) has this statement:

In the Primordial Chaos, time and space didn't matter. After all, time and space were creations of Orthar.
In the Primordial Chaos, everything was everywhere all the time.
Therefore, the Opposer could use the power of his Cosmos in an instant inside Orthar's Cosmos. It wouldn't be any different than if the Opposer's Cosmos were inside Orthar's Cosmos. ~Chapter 1317, Lightning is the Only Way.

Additionally, it was shown that the Cosmos, the things that have all the concepts and laws, and everything else they created, is literally just them:

A Cosmos was a construct of Energy that defended a world from the Primordial Chaos while simultaneously siphoning power from it.
That definition was also correct. After all, this was exactly what a Cosmos did.
What did a Heaven Breaker think about what a Cosmos was?
Them.
It was them.
A Cosmos was simply a superior body.
A body could only absorb so much Energy. A body could only be so powerful. A body could only house a Spirit with a certain level of power.
There was a limit to the natural density of everything.
A normal body would eventually reach these limits.
That's when one needed a Cosmos.
The Cosmos was the actual body of a Heaven Breaker.
In essence, the Heaven Breaker would renounce their old body and make their Cosmos their new body. They would be far bigger than before, which would allow them to gather far more Energy and power in the process. ~Chapter 1317

It's clearly shown that the Cosmos/Universe itself is the character, and considering how Orthar created Time and Space, and it was things he just came up with and don't actually exist in other places, I think it fits Tier 1. Afterall, it showing that he created Time and Space on a whim showcases that he has superiority over it.

I believe Low 1-A might be possible. Additionally, the reason how Orthar became so powerful is because of Energy in the Primordial Chaos (The first scan showcases how everything is made with Energy, and Energy is literally Existence), as he absorbs more Energy to become powerful. Obviously, this'll make Energy Low 1-A/1-A source, so I believe characters reaching this level of power isn't really an anti-feat due to all of their powers coming from that source.

Although I do think it qualifies, I want to see more opinions to know if this is enough, or if I should add more scans/context.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

doesn`t seem like tier 1 stuff just concept and law stuff with a creator god.

 

[Rikimarox2]

doesn`t seem like tier 1 stuff just concept and law stuff with a creator god.

Doesn't the new 1-A standards kinda fit for that, though? Iirc even transcendence of time and space is sometimes enough for Low 1-A to 1-A.

Time and space weren't even a thing in other worlds, it didn't exist. Then Orthar just came here and said **** it let's make some stuff. Additionally, iirc, it was shown not to affect because he was the one that created everything, so stuff like conceptual time and space manip, as well as everything else, doesn't work on him. The only thing that works is to get stuff from the Priomordial Chaos in order to do anything meaningful to him.

What would be needed?

 

[Ezaru]

In the Primordial Chaos, time and space didn't matter. After all, time and space were creations of Orthar.
In the Primordial Chaos, everything was everywhere all the time.
Therefore, the Opposer could use the power of his Cosmos in an instant inside Orthar's Cosmos. It wouldn't be any different than if the Opposer's Cosmos were inside Orthar's Cosmos. ~Chapter 1317, Lightning is the Only Way.

Why would this mean they are 1d above their creations?

Edit: Oh I see what your saying, it's saying they created time and space, not "all of time and space" which I think would scale lower, assuming a standard 4d cosmology, this could imply they are 1-A

Doesn't the new 1-A standards kinda fit for that, though? Iirc even transcendence of time and space is sometimes enough for Low 1-A to 1-A.

Time and space weren't even a thing in other worlds, it didn't exist. Then Orthar just came here and said **** it let's make some stuff. Additionally, iirc, it was shown not to affect because he was the one that created everything, so stuff like conceptual time and space manip, as well as everything else, doesn't work on him. The only thing that works is to get stuff from the Priomordial Chaos in order to do anything meaningful to him.

What would be needed?

1-A would require they trancend the concept of time and space entirely I'm pretty sure

Which I guess if they created "time" and "space" and not a "time and space", you could argue for it

 

[Rikimarox2]

Why would this mean they are 1d above their creations?

Edit: Oh I see what your saying, it's saying they created time and space, not "all of time and space" which I think would scale lower, assuming a standard 4d cosmology, this could imply they are 1-A



1-A would require they trancend the concept of time and space entirely I'm pretty sure

Which I guess if they created "time" and "space" and not a "time and space", you could argue for it

By "Time and Space", I mean all of time and space, since Time and Space (Their concepts) were things that Orthar himself created for his Cosmos, and weren't a thing originally. Basically, Orthar used the Energy of the Primordial Chaos to create the concepts of time and space for his own cosmos, which is why it states that time and space didn't matter in the Primordial Chaos, since they were just things that Orthar created, and therefore did not matter in Primordial Chaos.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence. Do you mean Time and Space as in, he created them seperately? If so, then yeah, he did create them seperately, since Gravis (The main character of this novel) did something different from Orthar, which was combining/creating both the concept of time, and the concept of space, to make the concept of Spacetime in his cosmos.

 

[Ezaru]

By "Time and Space", I mean all of time and space, since Time and Space (Their concepts) were things that Orthar himself created for his Cosmos, and weren't a thing originally. Basically, Orthar used the Energy of the Primordial Chaos to create the concepts of time and space for his own cosmos, which is why it states that time and space didn't matter in the Primordial Chaos, since they were just things that Orthar created, and therefore did not matter in Primordial Chaos.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence. Do you mean Time and Space as in, he created them seperately? If so, then yeah, he did create them seperately, since Gravis (The main character of this novel) did something different from Orthar, which was combining/creating both the concept of time, and the concept of space, to make the concept of Spacetime in his cosmos.

What I meant is there's a difference between creating a universe ( time and space ) or the concept of time and space

Seems to be the latter, so this could definitely qualify for 1-A but the standards are strict you'd have to ask someone on staff or knows a bit better

 

[Rikimarox2]

What I meant was did they create a universe ( time and space ) or the concept of time and space

Seems to be the latter, so this could definitely qualify for 1-A but the standards are strict you'd have to ask someone on staff or knows a bit better

It's the latter. Not to mention he can just straight up remove those concepts, as every single concept from his cosmos came from him and he created it. I also messaged a staff, and I'll wait for their response.

 

[Planck69]

Being the source of space and time in this manner wouldn't mean transcending them existentially, no. This just seems like Energy is some primordial chaotic force.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Being the source of space and time in this manner wouldn't mean transcending them existentially, no. This just seems like Energy is some primordial chaotic force.

For the record, the whole "Time and space were made of Energy", what it was meant by was that the Time and Space that Orthar created were made by Energy, not that they originally existed somewhere or smth. The concepts of time and space were something that Orthar completely made up by himself, and were not really something that existed before. Hence the whole "Time and space did not matter, since they were just creations of Orthar".

 

[Rikimarox2]

Also, I'm not sure if this helps, but there's also another showcase of the whole time and space shenanigans.

Basically, the mc of the novel, Gravis, made his own cosmos and combined the concept of Time and concept of Space (They are separated in Orthar's cosmos) in order to make the concept of Spacetime. Now it might be weird, but in the novel there is stuff like "Objective Reality" and "Perceived Reality". Basically, The World is Objective Reality, and only exists in one point. Meanwhile, the past and the future are just perceived reality, ie not actually real. This is in Orthar's Cosmos, meanwhile Gravis made the Spacetime concept.

Yet, even when Gravis did this, it did not matter against Orthar and he just swatted him away, which to me seems like the Concepts/Laws/Daos are just not something to him, nor any other character at this stage, since they can freely create them, alter them, make them an actual spacetime, etc...

 

[Ezaru]

Being the source of space and time in this manner wouldn't mean transcending them existentially, no. This just seems like Energy is some primordial chaotic force.

Why not?

Wouldn't it make the Energy Low 1-A?

statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence

Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

OP you should read the rest of Sword God since that's where the big low 1-A argument comes from.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I mean, I suppose controlling all Energy or whatever would make you Low 2-C, since it was used to make the Universe. Energy itself doesn't really scale anywhere since it has no form of superiority.

 

[Ezaru]

I mean, I suppose controlling all Energy or whatever would make you Low 2-C, since it was used to make the Universe. Energy itself doesn't really scale anywhere since it has no form of superiority.

Wouldn't creating the concepts of time and space be H1B/L1A?

Or is that not what's happening here

I'm less focused on the energy part more on

"Time and Space were created by"

Seems to imply the concepts themselves, because it implies he invented it or whatever but think needs more info

 

[Ar1216789]

1-A would require they trancend the concept of time and space entirely I'm pretty sure

Which I guess if they created "time" and "space" and not a "time and space", you could argue for it

No, 1-A needs more than that. Transcending the concepts of space and time is vague for 1-A, you need a higher plane of existence which is above topping everything below it. And other things like above abstract concepts in their entirety. The easiest method for 1-A is a void of nothingness.

​

1-A: Outerverse level
Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.


If creating the concepts of space and time was 1-A on the wiki, legit everyone would be 1-A

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This could serve as supporting evidence for Low 1-A if the Energy not only created space and dimensions but also quantitatively transcends what it created (e.g., the Energy being infinitely greater than the totality of its creations). It could even suggest 1-A if the Energy is stated not only to transcend the concepts it created but is also described as being more real in some capacity.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Without that superiority, the concepts of time and space would simply scale to the size of the verse, and Energy would scale accordingly as well.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

This could serve as supporting evidence for Low 1-A if the Energy not only created space and dimensions but also quantitatively transcends what it created (e.g., the Energy being infinitely greater than the totality of its creations). It could even suggest 1-A if the Energy is stated not only to transcend the concepts it created but is also described as being more real in some capacity.

The full scope of Energy is greater than the Cosmos they create.

 

[Ezaru]

No, 1-A needs more than that. Transcending the concepts of space and time is vague for 1-A, you need a higher plane of existence which is above topping everything below it. And other things like above abstract concepts in their entirety. The easiest method for 1-A is a void of nothingness.

​

1-A: Outerverse level
Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.


If creating the concepts of space and time was 1-A on the wiki, legit everyone would be 1-A

I thought you didn't need a 1-A structure to get 1-A?

Like if you trancend the concept of space and time, then you trancend any possible combination of space and time, so that should get you to at least Low 1-A right?

But what would be required for 1-A? Like what would count as "surpassing material composition as a whole" if not creating it? What is the standard?

Thanks

Also, I don't understand how an empty void is tier 1 and not 12 or whatever

 

[Ezaru]

Without that superiority, the concepts of time and space would simply scale to the size of the verse, and Energy would scale accordingly as well.

But if you exist in a place with no concept of space or time, then create it, isn't that trancending it?

 

[Ar1216789]

I thought you didn't need a 1-A structure to get 1-A?

Like if you trancend the concept of space and time, then you trancend any possible combination of space and time, so that should get you to at least Low 1-A right?

You can transcend certain things to achieve 1-A, but most of the time I see it is usually with structures. Qualitative superiority over something is a must for 1-A.

Q: What is "qualitative superiority"?​

A: To put it simply: It is superiority over lesser things that involves no element of quantity, or amount, in any manner whatsoever. It, instead, hinges entirely on the nature of the character's existence and ontology. In general, all characters with such superiority over lesser things are 1-A.

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.

Transcending the combination of space and time usually lands characters at Tier 2. It is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made. It can also land characters at Low 1-A, but again its reliant on context.

But what would be required for 1-A? Like what would count as "surpassing material composition as a whole" if not creating it? What is the standard?

Qualitative superiority can land characters at 1-A. It is also needed for 1-A. Transcendence over various things like space and time, as a higher plane of existence can grant 1-A under certain contexts, it needs way more background information though.

Also, I don't understand how an empty void is tier 1 and not 12 or whatever

Voids of nothingness land characters at 1-A because they are higher planes of reality and something spatio-temporal can't be applied in this case it is a realm of nothingness, a void. And given that it's not inferior to the normal reality but rather superior, 1-A is applicable. It's a higher state of existence surpassing material composition, directly matching the VSBW'S Tiering Systems definition of Outerverse level.

But if you exist in a place with no concept of space or time, then create it, isn't that trancending it?

A lack of something isn't the same thing as being superior to that thing. Predating a certain concept does not necessarily imply any form of superiority over it.

 

[Ezaru]

You can transcend certain things to achieve 1-A, but most of the time I see it is usually with structures. Qualitative superiority over something is a must for 1-A.

Q: What is "qualitative superiority"?​

A: To put it simply: It is superiority over lesser things that involves no element of quantity, or amount, in any manner whatsoever. It, instead, hinges entirely on the nature of the character's existence and ontology. In general, all characters with such superiority over lesser things are 1-A.

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.

Transcending the combination of space and time usually lands characters at Tier 2. It is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made. It can also land characters at Low 1-A, but again its reliant on context.



Qualitative superiority can land characters at 1-A. It is also needed for 1-A. Transcendence over various things like space and time, as a higher plane of existence can grant 1-A under certain contexts, it needs way more background information though.



Voids of nothingness land characters at 1-A because they are higher planes of reality and something spatio-temporal can't be applied in this case it is a realm of nothingness, a void. And given that it's not inferior to the normal reality but rather superior, 1-A is applicable. It's a higher state of existence surpassing material composition, directly matching the VSBW'S Tiering Systems definition of Outerverse level.


A lack of something isn't the same thing as being superior to that thing. Predating a certain concept does not necessarily imply any form of superiority over it.

I guess I see where you are coming from, just because you make a car doesn't make you car level

But with the universe it's a bit different, a car and me are still in the same universe

But yeah I guess there isn't enough evidence shown to say he fully trancends time and space, even though he created them, as odd as it sounds

I guess there's no evidence that if the universe grew to 100,000d it would or wouldn't surpass the "God"

Why is a void of nothingness a higher plane though? I don't really understand how being somewhere before space and time, then creating it isn't 1-A, but a void of nothingness is?

Would you count the energy realm ITSELF as 1-A?

 

[Ar1216789]

I guess I see where you are coming from, just because you make a car doesn't make you car level

But with the universe it's a bit different, a car and me are still in the same universe

It goes out like this, if X has enough energy to create a universe, that energy can be outputted into attacks. Universal Energy Systems make Creation Feats more applicable.

Making a car would Disqualify

This would disqualify creation feats for several reasons.

1. Creation feats must be completed in a short timeframe.
2. It must be outputted by the user's powers/energy.

Why is a void of nothingness a higher plane though? I don't really understand how being somewhere before space and time, then creating it isn't 1-A, but a void of nothingness is?

A void of nothingness isn't a higher plane unless proven so by evidence, I was discussing how voids of nothingness apply to 1-A verses. It must be a higher plane topping everything below it as well as transcendence statements for a void of nothingness to be 1-A.

The thing, a void of nothingness is merely a void. Devoid of space, time, and physicality, but since it is superior to the planes before it, it lands the voids of nothingness at 1-A. Which is why you need to prove how it tops everything before it.

Predating certain concepts wouldn't imply a form of superiority over them. The thing about 1-A voids is that they are superior in a sense, and devoid of everything. Something spatiotemporal can't be applied to a superior realm devoid of everything.

Would you count the energy realm ITSELF as 1-A?

I don't think so. It just seems like a governing force of abstract concepts that fuel the world. (I read over the thread quickly without much look, so don't take this as 100% correct, I'll read over it again later.)

 

[Rikimarox2]

Question: Wouldn't the showcase of someone taking the separate concept of time and separate concept of space to make the concept of spacetime (ie infinite points of time), and yet still not being a real difference against the person who made the concept of time and concept of space showcase that they are indeed superior to their concepts?

Basically, in the series, the "timeline" in the world that Orthar created has a single point. Ie reality exists in just one point, everything else is just illusion (He made it like that, for the record. Spacetime wasn't a concept in his world, nor did it exist before iirc). Basically, the timeline isn't made of infinite points, but just a single point. Yet, gravis (the mc), made a world with the spacetime concept, different from Orthar's, which means it has infinite points of time. Yet, even when he did that, it did not really make a difference and Orthar just destroyed him.

I'll come back to this thread once i've gathered enough feats/scans from the second series, so it doesn't really matter right now if this qualifies or not, but I just wanted to know the answer to this question so that it might potentially save some time for me when I make the thread.

 

[Ezaru]

It goes out like this, if X has enough energy to create a universe, that energy can be outputted into attacks. Universal Energy Systems make Creation Feats more applicable.

Making a car would Disqualify

This would disqualify creation feats for several reasons.

1. Creation feats must be completed in a short timeframe.
2. It must be outputted by the user's powers/energy.

A void of nothingness isn't a higher plane unless proven so by evidence, I was discussing how voids of nothingness apply to 1-A verses. It must be a higher plane topping everything below it as well as transcendence statements for a void of nothingness to be 1-A.

The thing, a void of nothingness is merely a void. Devoid of space, time, and physicality, but since it is superior to the planes before it, it lands the voids of nothingness at 1-A. Which is why you need to prove how it tops everything before it.

Predating certain concepts wouldn't imply a form of superiority over them. The thing about 1-A voids is that they are superior in a sense, and devoid of everything. Something spatiotemporal can't be applied to a superior realm devoid of everything.



I don't think so. It just seems like a governing force of abstract concepts that fuel the world. (I read over the thread quickly without much look, so don't take this as 100% correct, I'll read over it again later.)

I'm not quite sure I understand

What level of "trancendence" is required for someplace without space-time to be outer

This energy stuff seems to predate time and space and is the source of all of it, so obviously it's not inferior

 

[Ar1216789]

I'm not quite sure I understand

What level of "trancendence" is required for someplace without space-time to be outer

This energy stuff seems to predate time and space and is the source of all of it, so obviously it's not inferior

Transcendence as a higher plane above everything below it. Transcending concepts and other things can help as supporting evidence for 1-A, qualitative superiority, or hierarchies of R>F are all methods for 1-A.

For example, take an look at Aslans profile. There is a hierarchy of R>F towards reality, in which he has qualitative superiority to all of reality.

As I said, this still wouldn't imply a form of superiority. For example, take the dinosaurs. They predated the concept of "humans" because they predated mankind. Doesn't mean that they transcend concepts or anything, they are simply old.