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Mistakes in Scaling a Few Bleach Characters
- Thread starter Apollonir.Scale
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The stuff y'all mutually agreed to seems fine to apply.
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Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 2,135
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- #44
EyvallahGood work with the thread btw. Toshiro catch was clutchand the Soifon point led to some behind the scenes change that upgraded her lol
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I disagree with the thread in general, though specifically focusing on the Toshiro stuff….people keep saying he has an elemental advantage over her which isn’t true. He can freeze her water and she could melt his ice. The fact that they both can mutually affect each others elements that are powered by their spiritual energy implies some form of relativity when it comes to AP. The best evidence is him stopping her Cascada, which most forms of media seems to show as her strongest attack. Her ‘Desgarron’, ‘Lanza’, ‘Respira’ etc equivalent.
Should also be noted that he was only ever getting overwhelmed by her before the ice clone was ‘killed’, during his observation period. Once he got a grasp on the speed and power of her Res, she never overwhelmed him again with her speed or AP. When the ice clone was ‘killed’, she even dodged his physical sword strike despite her having Hierro passively active at all times, implying his striking strength could cut through her Hierro. Which makes sense if the general AP of his Zan ability = the general AP of her abilities
Anything before the ice clone can’t really be used for scaling as both Base Halibel and Base/Bankai Toshiro were holding back. Even afterwards, Toshiro noted he was waiting for the ice petals to melt down a bit before using Tenso Jurin as he didn’t want to kill his allies by mistake.
Bankai Toshiro and Res Halibel should scale, and the stipulation that he was only keeping up due to an elemental advantage should be removed from his profile as they both cancelled out.
He should have ‘higher’ with Tenso Jurin and HH though. We’ve only seen TJ twice, but based on its first use against Gin, it isn’t just a single shot attack, Toshiro can maintain it for an unknown amount of time and his attacks would most likely be buffed for that duration. For HH, we know it’s such a big increase that Halibel couldn’t melt it despite being able to melt everything else. And both TJ and HH impressing Starrk enough for him to go Res and try to force Kyoraku to display a power on that level or higher implies it’s a big jump.
Last point disagreeing with the FKT Toshiro downgrade….I don’t remember the exact context cuz it’s been a few years since I read this encounter, but CFYOW Halibel compared the early version of Hikone that got reverse jumped in Hueco Mundo to FKT Toshiro, though I don’t exactly remember who Hikone damaged, what forms they were in etc but that version of Hikone and all of them pretty much scale to High 6-A
Should also be noted that he was only ever getting overwhelmed by her before the ice clone was ‘killed’, during his observation period. Once he got a grasp on the speed and power of her Res, she never overwhelmed him again with her speed or AP. When the ice clone was ‘killed’, she even dodged his physical sword strike despite her having Hierro passively active at all times, implying his striking strength could cut through her Hierro. Which makes sense if the general AP of his Zan ability = the general AP of her abilities
Anything before the ice clone can’t really be used for scaling as both Base Halibel and Base/Bankai Toshiro were holding back. Even afterwards, Toshiro noted he was waiting for the ice petals to melt down a bit before using Tenso Jurin as he didn’t want to kill his allies by mistake.
Bankai Toshiro and Res Halibel should scale, and the stipulation that he was only keeping up due to an elemental advantage should be removed from his profile as they both cancelled out.
He should have ‘higher’ with Tenso Jurin and HH though. We’ve only seen TJ twice, but based on its first use against Gin, it isn’t just a single shot attack, Toshiro can maintain it for an unknown amount of time and his attacks would most likely be buffed for that duration. For HH, we know it’s such a big increase that Halibel couldn’t melt it despite being able to melt everything else. And both TJ and HH impressing Starrk enough for him to go Res and try to force Kyoraku to display a power on that level or higher implies it’s a big jump.
Last point disagreeing with the FKT Toshiro downgrade….I don’t remember the exact context cuz it’s been a few years since I read this encounter, but CFYOW Halibel compared the early version of Hikone that got reverse jumped in Hueco Mundo to FKT Toshiro, though I don’t exactly remember who Hikone damaged, what forms they were in etc but that version of Hikone and all of them pretty much scale to High 6-A
Apollonir.Scale
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- #46
We can't talk about relativity in terms of elements. Bazz B can also control Yamamoto's flames, but we don't scale him to Yamamoto's level in any way.
Remember my Hooleer example. Hooleer could also disperse Yamamoto's flames, but he is far below his level.
Just because a character dodges an attack doesn't mean he would have taken damage if he hadn't. Aizen has much higher Durability than everyone except Yamamoto, but he still dodges attacks that come at him.
The statement in question should be revisited and a separate discussion should be made for it.
Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 2,135
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- #48
Did he see Toshiro after the FKT?
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We aren’t given explicit confirmation. But we can deduce she’s aware of “current” Toshiro through hearsay or having ran into him on the way out of Soul Society, given the comparison is made with the present tense. Plus it makes no sense for Halibel to be comparing Hikone to someone they’ve all massively power cliffed since then.
Edit: I’ll get to Toshiro’s profile tonight and ping the thread when I do fyi
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Bazz B didn’t control Yama’s flames, he said he offset them with his own which is different…and was removed in the current anime canon anyways. As for Hooleer blowing away Yama’s flame ‘prison’….I’m not even sure if that’s really even an AP feat but that’s unrelated to the interaction between Halibel and Toshiro actively going back and forth with attacks they were currently putting their spiritual energy into.
That’s just supporting evidence. Toshiro and Halibel’s abilities scale and speed scales, it’s likely their physical AP/striking strength scales too, that bit is just support for it.
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Halibel was out of commission for the entire TYBW she should have no idea how strong he is. The Gotei might not know how strong he is, only Byakuya and Zaraki know the full extent, but considering ‘current’ Toshiro scales to Gerard and TYBW Zaraki, its even more unlikely that’s what Narita was trying to tell us. Especially considering he sees Toshiro as relevant enough power wise to write him out of the story during the Hikone conflict along with Byakuya…no coincidence that it’s the 2 current captains that fought alongside Zaraki and are closest to him in power 6 months prior written out of the final battle.
All this to say it’s more likely she’s talking about FKT Toshiro. Keep in mind, even experienced and intelligent people like Kyoraku and Shinji thought FKT Toshiro was strong enough to give the finishing blow to Aizen. Not saying he scales obviously, none of them did, but I doubt they’d leave the finishing blow to him if he was some below Halibel level fighter
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Here's the scan. It's just blatantly not a scaling scan for FKT Toshiro. Even if you grant that it's about FKT Toshiro, it's not talking about power, but more someone's physical skills. Which is in line with how Toshiro is considered a prodigy, thus making it an apt comparison. But in that same statement Hikone is hyped up as a CFYOW Captain level opponent and even held in the same regard as Yamamoto (not saying he's Yama level yet), the only reason Hikone lost was due to being caught off guard, and it's also stated that without Grimmjow, Nel, Halibel, and the Quincies working together, they would've been annihilated, and even then Halibel thinks they're lucky he ran away. I think we can all agree that FKT Toshiro isn't taking on the CFYOW Espada + Femritters. If I need to prove why FKT Toshiro isn't above the sum of them combined I will lol.
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Apollonir.Scale
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- #54
I think the changes that were approved can now be implemented.
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Yeah, was thinking the same thing. I'm applying the changes now, and someone can close this.
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Done.
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