Invincible season 3 discussion

[Alexander]

It seems not

what kind of ******* bombs are able to ******* do that?

 

[Tahoy49574]

what kind of ******* bombs are able to ******* do that?

Just scale him to the Mauler Twins, it's all over

 

[Reyne]

Simon also said he thinks everyone has variance is power around 30-40%, in Invincible and in real life. It just depends on how motivated someone is.

Oh, and that he thinks Mark could probably move the moon in space, if he put his back into it.

 

[Tahoy49574]

My question is one of the ones at the top about how Mark is compared to Nolan currently (nearing EoS3)

He completely dodged that part of the question

 

[Tyranno223]

It seems not

Shame about the feat.

Immortal should still (notably) downscale from Omni-Man regardless. The latter passed out after the GoG fight and the former could still bleed Omni-Man and (somehow) overpower him in a few clashes... emphasis on few.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Shame about the feat.

Immortal should still (notably) downscale from Omni-Man regardless. The latter passed out after the GoG fight and the former could still bleed Omni-Man and (somehow) overpower him in a few clashes... emphasis on few.

It's already been explained why that's not good

Semi-related, why is the Immortal still ranked as Low 6-B? It's clear that he's massively outclassed by the top tiers in the verse.

• He's been easily killed by Low 6-B characters consistently. Both Omni-Man kills were basically one-shots once he landed a clean hit, and the alternate Omni-Man cut through him like paper.
• Alternate Invincible crushed Immortal's head easily, who chronologically should be around season 2 levels, and in the latest episode
  Spoiler
• Season 2 Invincible states and proves that he is stronger and faster than the Immortal, and he himself is far below Omni-Man himself (though in that case the backscaling is sort of acceptable). We also have recent proof where the Immortal has a somewhat even fight with a Mauler twin, while start of season 2 Invincible was able to beat numerous of them before being overwhelmed, and Oliver easily one-shot them.
• Immortal was unable to harm Allen with any of his attacks except an eye poke, with Allen being comparable to
  Spoiler
• The Immortal's best showings are in scenarios where he has significant advantages. In the initial Guardians fight, he loses a 7v1 and by the time he can draw blood with his attacks, Omni-Man is already restrained and weakened from Red Rush's assault, who hit him hundreds of times. In the episode 7 fight, Omni-Man is fatigued and distracted with Mark's fight with the monster, and the only lasting damage that Immortal deals is, again, an eye poke. Also, despite how we usually scale things, Invincible is very liberal with blood splatter and I don't think it's that concrete to be used for scaling.

Drawing blood isn't that notable in a verse where everyone has paper skin, I don't think it's enough to justify Immortal's massive back-scaling.

 

[Tyranno223]

It's already been explained why that's not good

I know and I don't agree. Immortal and War Woman working together knocked out Omni-Man. Granted he fell unconscious after the fight, but he was outright critically injured from the wounds.

In their rematch he clashed with Nolan in several exchanges and outright overpowered Omni-Man in their air joust clash.

He gets stomped in the alternate universe, but that's an alternate universe and scaling with those aren't considered if I remember correctly.

Granted I think he should have a "possibly" or "at most" rating rather than a solid one since he downscales.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Granted I think he should have a "possibly" or "at most" rating rather than a solid one since he downscales.

You don't downscale from someone capable of punching a hole through you

Again, in his best showing against Omni-Man he had a lot of help, and in their rematch the most lasting damage he did was an eye poke. If what Simon said is anything to go by, you could say he lasted a bit more due to rage

 

[Tyranno223]

You don't downscale from someone capable of punching a whole through you

Again, in his best showing against Omni-Man he had a lot of help, and in their rematch the most lasting damage he did was an eye poke. If what Simon said is anything to go by, you could say he lasted a bit more due to rage

In Invincible anyone comparable can punch a hole in you, it's not a good indication on its own. Nolan slices open Lucan's belly in one slash and Lucan later breaks his back in one kick, that's hardly a massive antifeat.

Nolan himself gets critically wounded from Immortal and War Woman's blows and the rematch, again, has Immortal clash (as in blocks a punch and delivers his own) multiples times with Nolan and outright knock Nolan back while he's fine during their air joust.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Lucan later breaks his back in one kick, that's hardly a massive antifeat.

After being wore down due to an extended fight

 

[Tyranno223]

After being wore down due to an extended fight

You don't lose suddenly lose all durability after a fight. This isn't Dragon Ball with ki.

 

[Reyne]

In Invincible anyone comparable can punch a hole in you, it's not a good indication on its own. Nolan slices open Lucan's belly in one slash and Lucan later breaks his back in one kick, that's hardly a massive antifeat.

Nolan himself gets critically wounded from Immortal and War Woman's blows and the rematch, again, has Immortal clash (as in blocks a punch and delivers his own) multiples times with Nolan and outright knock Nolan back while he's fine during their air joust.

I don't disagree that the first fight with Omni-Man did well for Immortal's sake, and the second fight also had some good moments, but Viltrumite atoms do get stronger with speed. It's a comic thing, so it doesn't apply to the show, but it just needs to be said to combat this notion of the verse. Viltrumites moving with speed can damage beings more durable than themselves (like that one scene on the moon).

 

[Reyne]

You don't lose suddenly lose all durability after a fight. This isn't Dragon Ball with ki.

Technically speaking, wear and tear is phrase for reason (see erosion; The Grand Canyon).

 

[Tyranno223]

Technically speaking, wear and tear is phrase for reason (see erosion; The Grand Canyon).

True, but that fight is not an example where erosion has any real relevance (he wasn't even hit on the back I believe).

I don't disagree that the first fight with Omni-Man did well for Immortal's sake, and the second fight also had some good momebts, but Viltrumite atoms do get stronger with speed. It's a comic thing, so it doesn't apply to the show, but it just needs to be said to combat this notion of the verse. Viltrumites moving with speed can damage beings more durable than themselves (like that one scene on the moon).

Yeah, like you said, the databook is comic only. It's also often very contradictory, like Red Rush's speed as one example.

 

[Reyne]

True, but that fight is not an example where erosion has any real relevance (he wasn't even hit on the back I believe).


Yeah, like you said, the databook is comic only. It's also often very contradictory, like Red Rush's speed as one example.

Erosion is the admittedly poor choice to represent wear and tear, and I didn't double check the original comment, but Omni-Man still takes many hits in each fight. It's not hard to see that Omni-Man does the flat handed thing to deal greater damage, regardless of the comic's stronger lore. That someone falling on someone really fast could do some real damage when standing straight. Lucan not going through him shows that peers can't blast through one another, and that the flat handed thing really is great.

The handbooks status has been acknowledged as dubious, namely because of Kirkman's unknown level of involvement, but it's still used in tge current threads. The only real problem is the exact numbers given, but this is a problem the comics proper share.

 

[Tyranno223]

Lucan not going through him shows that peers can't blast through one another, and that the flat handed thing really is great.

It's still a damning example. Despite being comparable, Lucan with his guts spilling out and on the verge of unconsciousness one shots Nolan's spine.

On the reverse, Nolan slices open Lucan's stomach in one slice despite being comparable. Same with cracking open a viltrumite's skull with one attack and breaking another one's jaw with a single elbow. These are all sudden one shots to body parts after multiple even or comparable exchanges.

Immortal obviously performs worse as he downscales notably, but he's just another example of this. He's comparable enough to exchange blows and cause heavy damage, but he too can get suddenly one shot after multiple exchanges.

 

[Reyne]

It's still a damning example. Despite being comparable, Lucan with his guts spilling out and on the verge of unconsciousness one shots Nolan's spine.

On the reverse, Nolan slices open Lucan's stomach in one slice despite being comparable. Same with cracking open a viltrumite's skull with one attack and breaking another one's jaw with a single elbow. These are all sudden one shots to body parts after multiple even or comparable exchanges.

Immortal obviously performs worse as he downscales notably, but he's just another example of this. He's comparable enough to exchange blows and cause heavy damage, but he too can get suddenly one shot after multiple exchanges.

The Viltrumites cause grievous harm to one another after extended fights, and Lucan was otherwise intact (Thula getting hit in the face earlier). Thula's scaling relies on future events (her being a peer with the other top tiers), but it's the same principle. Immortal barely got hit in the first fight and then got torn apart and never does anything major to Omni-Man. S2 and S3 have done no favors to Immortal, and it's not likely to be any better in the future, so there's no reason to back scale him.

 

[Tyranno223]

The Viltrumites cause grievous harm to one another after extended fights, and Lucan was otherwise intact (Thula getting hit in the face earlier). Thula's scaling relies on future events (her being a peer with the other top tiers), but it's the same principle. Immortal barely got hit in the first fight and then got torn apart and never does anything major to Omni-Man. S2 and S3 have done no favors to Immortal, and it's not likely to be any better in the future, so there's no reason to back scale him.

The first fight is a touché but Omni-Man still gets beaten into a critical state. Restrained or not, that's physical comparability (again by a notable downscale).

The sevond fight has Immortal take quite a few punches, even a series of gut punches. He again, outright does better than Omni-Man in their air joust and blocks him several times while landing counters.

S2 has a alternate universe Immortal get stomped which doesn't matter as per alternate universe rules. That aside, he's weaker than post-Thraxa Invincible which is fine.

S3 has a olded Immortal get killed by a post-training Invincible who can supposedly beat Anissa who is faster than Nolan.

S2 and S3 do nothing to really damage Immortal's downscaling. Even the Mauler's gun's fine since Invincible is notably impaired by it and it targets the nervous system rather than AP. Nothing new really comes up, he's always been weaker than Viltrumites but not incomparably so.

 

[Reyne]

The first fight is a touché but Omni-Man still gets beaten into a critical state. Restrained or not, that's physical comparability (again by a notable downscale).

The sevond fight has Immortal take quite a few punches, even a series of gut punches. He again, outright does better than Omni-Man in their air joust and blocks him several times while landing counters.

S2 has a alternate universe Immortal get stomped which doesn't matter as per alternate universe rules. That aside, he's weaker than post-Thraxa Invincible which is fine.

S3 has a olded Immortal get killed by a post-training Invincible who can supposedly beat Anissa who is faster than Nolan.

S2 and S3 do nothing to really damage Immortal's downscaling. Even the Mauler's gun's fine since Invincible is notably impaired by it and it targets the nervous system rather than AP. Nothing new really comes up, he's always been weaker than Viltrumites but not incomparably so.

With how many people were hitting him, and how many shots they landed, no.

Immortal was crazed, might I add, but it just wasn't enough to handle a full blow.

Image universe scaling is pretty lax compared to other stuff, and I did say no favors.

Nothing states or implies that Immortal gets weaker, and is more likeky to be the reverse.

I bet $3.75 that his downscaling is going to get worse.

 

[Tyranno223]

With how many people were hitting him, and how many shots they landed, no.

Immortal was crazed, might I add, but it just wasn't enough to handle a full blow.

Image universe scaling is pretty lax compared to other stuff, and I did say no favors.

Nothing states or implies that Immortal gets weaker, and is more likeky to be the reverse.

I bet $3.75 that his downscaling is going to get worse.

Only War Woman, Immortal, and Red Rush did anything meaningful to Nolan.

Being angry doesn't power him up. This isn't Saiyan Rage.

Doesn't really matter, but it does have lax scaling. Makes everything kinda wonky.

Alternate universe stuff isn't 1 to 1 on this wiki unless they have direct scaling or statements.

Maybe maybe not, but that doesn't matter.

 

[Alexander]

Man, invincible scaling sure IS ass

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

He's explicitly permanently amped

Fairs. He also mentioned that he got a range of new weapons and system but I didn't bother rechecking my scans previously. I don't really care enough to put 2 versions so I just put peak version

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

I don't disagree that the first fight with Omni-Man did well for Immortal's sake, and the second fight also had some good momebts, but Viltrumite atoms do get stronger with speed. It's a comic thing, so it doesn't apply to the show, but it just needs to be said to combat this notion of the verse. Viltrumites moving with speed can damage beings more durable than themselves (like that one scene on the moon).

Uhhhh what

Might as well bump their durability down to (multi-)continental or sth if we take this nonsense into account

 

[Reyne]

Uhhhh what

Might as well bump their durability down to (multi-)continental or sth if we take this nonsense into account

Because their atoms pull more energy with speed? If Viltrumites were dropped, they'd still be moon level due to the tearing threat. It definitely not gonna happen, for obvious reasons, but I think it's an interesting thought.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Because their atoms pull more energy with speed? If Viltrumites were dropped, they'd still be moon level due to the tearing threat. It definitely not gonna happen, for obvious reasons, but I think it's an interesting thought.

I've read through their handbook pages like 5 times for the CRT and that's never said anywhere .-.

What it's said about speed is that, in Allen's case(though he was specifically engineered to match viltrumite powers), his reactions are proportional to his speed

 

[Reyne]

Only War Woman, Immortal, and Red Rush did anything meaningful to Nolan.

Being angry doesn't power him up. This isn't Saiyan Rage.

Doesn't really matter, but it does have lax scaling. Makes everything kinda wonky.

Alternate universe stuff isn't 1 to 1 on this wiki unless they have direct scaling or statements.

Maybe maybe not, but that doesn't matter.

True, the rest only either hold him back or knock him back. They can damage him, but only crazed Immortal could take the blows, and I mean that in the willpower capacity. War Woman could damage him, but she got KOed with one hit, and then got her neck snapped. Immortal is the same, only he could take a ton of blows the second time. So, that is indeed crap scaling, but more to the point, not how Viltrumites operate. Vidar and Lucan could take the hits, with Vidar dying after too many blows to the head, and Lucan being downed by the hand chop. Immortal has since done nothing to support his durabiloty in the second fight, and thus an outlier or chalked up to simply willing himself to be stronger. It doesn't really matter.

It's because the alt. Invincibles have decent scaling to mainline Invincible. The comics are lax because Kirkman said they're canon to one another (Tick, Supreme).

It's going to matter. If we knew there was some basis for Immortal to get upscale, he'd probably keep his Viltrumite scaling, but there isn't, and what is is wonky at best.

 

[Reyne]

I've read through their handbook pages like 5 times for the CRT and that's never said anywhere .-.

What it's said about speed is that, in Allen's case(though he was specifically engineered to match viltrumite powers), his reactions are proportional to his speed

I'm pulling from the second Invincible section. It's not any single line, but from sections discussing how Smart Atoms work within him. His atoms are just naturally stronger, but he also pulls abd exchanges energy from quantum foam to move. I'm (now) drawing the conclusion that along with the increase mass and energy gain from moving faster, that because they intrinsically tied to this process, his atoms get stronger, and therefore maje him more durable.

I just made fun of/poked fun at how ridiculous "logic" can be when applied to scaling, but it just makes sense. Quantum foam energy is a bs pseudoscience power source, but is something can hit with so much force, it should be able to take that force, and because Invincible is getting more powerful with speed, he should be more durable with speed. He'll, while explicitly different from other Smart Atom users, this can more or less be used to hand wave and wonky stuff with other characters. Smart Atoms = Speedforce "I ain't gotta explain shit."

 

[Tahoy49574]

His atoms are just naturally stronger, but he also pulls abd exchanges energy from quantum foam to move

The "exchanging energy with the background" stuff is just meant to explain his resistance to temperatures tho ?

I'm (now) drawing the conclusion that along with the increase mass and energy gain from moving faster, that because they intrinsically tied to this process, his atoms get stronger, and therefore maje him more durable.

So headcanon again ?

 

[Reyne]

He does that to resist temperatures tho ?

So headcanon again ?

It's an explanation for why he resists extreme temperatures, not that he's only exchanging mass and energy for that reason alone. It literally says that change his inertia, and therefore mass, to fly faster. Like Atom Eve nonsensically having her power and defense treated as separate, why do the same for this? It's all just Smart Atoms pulling mass and energy.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Like Atom Eve nonsensically having her power and defense treated as separate

Her profile is bad all around, I dunno what the guy who did it was upt to, I'm changing that with the CRT

 

[Reyne]

And I'm changing that with the CRT

Good (I'd do a CRT as well, bit I'm too busy mooching off of people's CRTs.)

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

Because their atoms pull more energy with speed? If Viltrumites were dropped, they'd still be moon level due to the tearing threat. It definitely not gonna happen, for obvious reasons, but I think it's an interesting thought.

Bro what this sounds like fanfic

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

I’m willing to bet that JDM will play Conquest

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/852142055349420072/1345755866439221368/IMG_8745.png?ex=67c5b451&is=67c462d1&hm=6d02fa01956d3e8d0456aa7662378de2d45b3a064e21d7adcacb119e2664d23d&

 

[Reyne]

Bro what this sounds like fanfic

Watch out, I'm about to drop a meta that gets us Mean Supreme scaling.

TO THE MOON!!! (Not serious, but I genuinely think there's something to the Smart Atom thing.)

 

[Reyne]

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/852142055349420072/1345755866439221368/IMG_8745.png?ex=67c5b451&is=67c462d1&hm=6d02fa01956d3e8d0456aa7662378de2d45b3a064e21d7adcacb119e2664d23d&

Just because you shot Jesse James, don't make you Jesse James.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Watch out, I'm about to drop a meta that gets us Mean Supreme scaling.

That's another thing. If crossover scaling is forbidden, why is the verse currently using a feat from The Pact ? It's a crossover comic. If Firebreather gets a profile, would this feat be usable for him ?

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

That's another thing. If crossover scaling is forbidden, why is the verse currently using a feat from The Pact ? It's a crossover comic. If Firebreather gets a profile, would this feat be usable for him ?

The pact is different. It was a genuine attempt at a sorta teen titans/JL type team of previously established image characters, not completely different brands/universes for one-issue specials.

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

Just because you shot Jesse James, don't make you Jesse James.

You want me to break down why he gotta be conquest and nothing else

 

[Tahoy49574]

The pact is different. It was a genuine attempt at a sorta teen titans/JL type team of previously established image characters, not completely different brands/universes for one-issue specials.

If Firebreather gets a profile, would this feat be usable for him ?

This better be true then ^