Infinite Zamasu Abstract existence and Concept manipulation

[SSJRyu1]

So it's stated Zamasu not only merged with the Universe, but became "one with Justice and Order itself". https://imgur.com/a/fvwN96U


I think this could qualify him for Abstract existance by being the concepts of order and of Justice themselves.

I also think he could get Concept manipulation for being able to merge with and alter them to his image like was shown.

While Justice sounds like more of a type 4 concept given it is an idea spawned from sentient beings, Order sounds more like a type 2 from what I understand since Order is a fundemental concept that exists seperatly from sentient beings, or even space and time.

Anyway curious to see what others think.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im pretty sure "becoming one with Justice and Order itself" is not to be taken literally.

And even then, there's absolutely nothing proving that Zamasu literally became the concepts of such just because he fused with the universe. Or else every single character with omnipresence on a universal+ scale or higher would be qualified to get the same thing.

 

[JooCipher]

Abstract existence is getting revised atm

 

[DMB_1]

I think Gowasu is just being metaphorical or interpreting Zamasu's thoughts... Which would be also metaphorical.

 

[The_Causality]

Type 2 Concept is a no, concepts itself without statement are treated as Type 3 (most of time), for being Type 2, the concept need to exist even without all the object of the concept, as the concept of space can't exist without space itself.

basically, if for exemple, the concept of space isn't bound by the objects he embody, he should be type 2, if the concept is beyond/can exist before the objects or after it's destructions, this is Type 2

 

[SSJRyu1]

The thing is becoming one with the Universe is accepted based on that statement from Gowasu, despite it being part of the same statement as becoming one with law and order, so we already take Gowasu statement literally.

Also he specifies that Zamasu is becoming one with the actual concepts themselves specifically, as opposed to just saying he is embodying them.

We even see Zamasu corrupt the future and alter it's appearance, which can easily be seen as altering the law and order of the future, which Zeno decides is a place that should not exist due to Zamasu's influence.

I think theres to many reasons that support it to honestly call it hyperbole or metaphorical.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

That's just flowery language.

By becoming "justice and order" it means he becomes one with the universe so he can carry out his goal of destroying all mortals, which is what he believes will bring justice and order to the cosmos.

To say this means Infinite Zamasu became a conceptual being is simply using the highest possible interpretation when the context surrounding that statement doesn't support this.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I think Order is a concept that exists regardless of space and time. The concept of how Ordered or Chaotic something is would still apply to metaphysical things after all which don't have to be effected by space time.

 

[The_Causality]

I think Order is a concept that exists regardless of space and time. The concept of how Ordered or Chaotic something is would still apply to metaphysical things after all which don't have to be effected by space time.

Even with this interpretation this is Type 3, not 2. a Concept not bound by Space time is still Type 3.

 

[Amexim]

Ryu, many interpret Gowasu's latter statement as a reflection of what Zamasu believes he will and is becoming when he merged with the Universe itself. It's not at all enough proof for him to be considered a cosmic abstract with his existence being synonymous with the concept of justice and order, and you will need more proof than just a statement in the eyes of many— at the very least any sort of short interaction that demonstrates this. For example, him using his new power to alter... Something that's obviously falling under the category of a concept or abstract idea. All he does is attack Goku and Vegeta and exist as a part of a 4th dimensional construct, making him 4th dimensional, and for it to be a hard sell that his attacks aren't as well.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Flowery language is a fallacious excuse tbh. It directly says he becomes "one with Justice and Order itself". Not that he embodies them, or is able to control them, or anything like that which can be interprited as hyperbole or something else. Zamasu is even shown warping the future to his image, and Zeno feels that the future should not exist due to Zamasu's alterations of the worlds order and laws. So the context and wording do actually support that he is literally Justice and Order, on the contrary there is no reason to ignore the statement in favor of saying you think it might be hyperbole.

 

[Amexim]

Gowasu saying "he has become one with the universe" (explicitly using the word universe and not "the world" or anything) has evidence to back it up in the form of Zamasu actually doing it, and doing things that would mean that he merged with the universe.

Gowasu saying "one with justice and order itself" doesn't have anything explicitly connected to those ideas or concepts (in a way that couldn't be interpreted as any other power or him just being a reality warping/4D being merging with the universe itself). Please provide evidence in the forms of scans if you have any, because I don't see the connection here, and no one else seems to either.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>The thing is becoming one with the Universe is accepted based on that statement from Gowasu, despite it being part of the same statement as becoming one with law and order, so we already take Gowasu statement literally.

No, we take part of the statement when he says Zamasu is becoming the universe as literally. Just because one part of a statement is metaphorical or hyperbolic doesnt automatically make the whole statement as such.

Adding to that, we literally see Zamasu's presence spread throughout the universe upon Gowasu saying that, so we know Zamasu being the universe has support and can be taken literally. "Becoming Justice and Order" has nothing to support Zamasu becoming and ruling it on a conceptual level.

>Also he specifies that Zamasu is becoming one with the actual concepts themselves specifically

Saying hes becoming Justice and Order =/= him saying he's becoming the concepts of justice and order.

>We even see Zamasu corrupt the future and alter it's appearance, which can easily be seen as altering the law and order of the future, which Zeno decides is a place that should not exist due to Zamasu's influence.

Thats now how Law Manipulation works at all for one. Law Manipulation doesnt permit "altering the law and order of the future". Altering the future is literally just either reality warping or Future Manipulation.

Second, Zamasu was doing that because he was spreading throughout the timelines and would have reached them all had Zen'o not interefered with his plans. And im pretty sure an enemy becoming one with everything in a cosmology is something that wouldnt sit well with anyone in Zen'os position.

 

[Amexim]

We need to have better pages on what powers do as well, since there's definitely characters that could do that with "Law Manipulation" and "that's not what a power means" would be settled with Superpower wiki level articles (minus the stupid shit like Absolute Strength or whatever, which may or may not be acceptable to some people, especially given context).

That being said, for the first time in a bit, I agree with Kukui.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I dont see how Order is type 3. For type 3 doesn't it cease to be if you destroy that reality, or all of the object in question within it's reality? Order would exist even if you destroyed the Universe/Reality since it does not rely on the reality to exist, and the concept of order existed before the Universe to, kind of like nothingness, since nothingness is a type of order, or lack there of.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Zamasu became one with the universe.

Getting rid of the universe kills him and he's not a concept.

 

[Akreious]

Zamasu became one with the universe.
Getting rid of the universe kills him and he's not a concept.

This contributes... little if anything to the thread.

Also if you become an Abstract on a Universal level (An Abstract within that universe) and the Universe is busted, you'd die anyways.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

A type 2 concept wouldn't be affected by a universe bust.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There's also no such thing as an Abstract on a Universal level within a verse whos cosmology is obviously more than that, because then its not actually the concept.

 

[Wokistan]

You could have concepts that are bound to universes.

It'd be one of the lesser types, though.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Just becouse zamasu died doesn't make him impossible for being type 2, just that his level of control over the concept caps out after the future since that is as far as he got, it can aslo simply mean Zeno can erase or alter abstract concepts as a simple explanation. Also yes there are abstracts that only are Universal in scope from multiverses. Look at Gigyas for example. Hell he got abstract existance for being the embodiement of evil of 1 Universe without more context than the statement iirc. Double standards if you ask me to not give Zamasu the same treatement.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Sorry but your literally just ignoring what is being stated directly by Gowasu in favor of your opinion that it's flowery language, and what is shown by Zamasu altering the fundemental order of the future, implying further that he is becoming it's literal conceptual corruption of justice and Order like was stated.

Given Gigas got abstract existance just for being called the embodiement of evil, if we use identical standards Zamasu should qualify to. Not to mention Zamasu forcibly corrupted the universe and Justice and order itself to be in his image as was shown.

Anyhow, thanks for the support, but clearly this is going to be the majority calling what was said flowery language to dissmiss it, so imma peace since ive said my piece. But if you can see the logic behind it I would still recomend somebody carrying through some sort of abstract existance and concept manipulation for Zamasu.

 

[Wokistan]

Still, existing as a universe is rather abstract in itself. Not all abstracts are concepts by necessity.

 

[Wokistan]

I think it classifies as abstract existence, but I do not think the concepts can be said to be type 2.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Wokista I am unclear on type 3 and 2 diffrences. Could you maybe mesasge me and give some examples so I can better understand what differentiates the 2? But even if it is type 3 concepts I think there is alot of merit to abstract existance and concept manipulation via fusing with them to corrupt them.

 

[PairusDragonoid]

The part of:

"one with Justice and Order itself"

is a flowery language, its not literal in any case.

 

[Amexim]

I think Zamasu might have "abstract existence" but not the "conceptual kind" but more "immaterial", right, because he doesn't have a physical (3D) form and is more of a 4D... Energy? Or whatever the universe is classified as in terms of a state of matter or lackthereof if matter has any meaning beyond 3 dimensional.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Amexim That's just non-corporeality not abstract existence.

 

[Amexim]

Ok, cool, but what's the functional difference between non-corporeality, permanent intangibility, and being an abstract existence but not in a conceptual sense? They all sound the same to me.

 

[Wokistan]

@ryu Type 2 you can think as type 1 except not 1-A. Completely divorced from reality and they shape it on a fundamental level, they're not really limited by time or causality. They do not participate in other concepts, and won't be affected by the objeft they govern being affected, but changing them changes all that they govern. Generic "becomes this concept" almost never will get this.

@shadow I'm pretty sure non conceptual abstractions are a thing, like Oryx being one of a law as opposed to a concept. Existing as nothing but the space and time of a universe, not really having a conventional bpdy at all and just sorta being a sentient cosmic force sounds abstract to me.

 

[Amexim]

Yeah, and being a cosmic abstract is pretty cool tbh

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Wok Oh yeah they are. Abstracts don't have to be concepts, they can also exists as thoughts or ideas, but IZ is none of those. He's just living space-time.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Wokista So basically the diffrence of type 2 and 3 is less to do with the concept itself, but more to do with the scope it covers in it's showing? Such as Zamasu would be type 3 for being the concept of time, space, Order and Justice in the future, but it would be type 2 if he embodied it across all timelines and parts of DB 4D realities, existing seperatly from the universes even if they were erased?

So on one concept like "Order", it could be type 3, 2 or even 1 depending on the showing basically?

Also even if type 3 he still earns abstract existance like Gigyas, and should likely get conceptual manipulation via fusionism with existing concepts to alter them.

 

[Amexim]

Are you gonna post proof for everything besides the abstract part, my guy? Because you're talking like we agreed with EVERYTHING else in that statement. All that can be said is, Abstract Existence seems acceptable via him being 4D "physically" and that... Being... Weird. As in, Zamasu doesn't have proof for Conceptual Manipulation or Embodiment but he does have proof for Abstract Existence.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I already posted my reasoning for why he should get abstract existance for sure, whether for being the concept of order and justice in the future just like Gigyas gets for being called the embodiement of evil, or even space and time to would qualify as an abstract. And why becoming those concepts via fusionism, and warping them in his image to the point Zeno wants to erase the future is conceptual manipulation. Some people agree for various reasons some don't. If somebody wants to add them then great, if not nothing I can do about it.

 

[The_Causality]

This Concept isn't Type 2 because, without proof or statements, if you destroy reality itself, it can no longer exist, I don't talk about physical object, but every object of this concept (like idea in our mind etc..) for order to being Type 2, he need to be beyond reality itself, not bound by the destruction of all his objects. Many concepts much more ambiguous like Mathematics or Nothingness are treated Type 3 because we have ne proof that a form of math/nothing existed before the concepts, or you arg about the fact that a form of order existed before reality? If yes we have ne proof so it still treated as Type 3

Take for exemple for Dialgz, when he is born, Time itself is born, if Dialga, the embodiment of time was born before he create Time itself, it should be Type 2.