Immeasurable Speed: VERY minor change (gotta love semantics)

[Catzlaflame]

This is going to seem very minor, but I legitimately think this would go a long way in regards to helping newer members understand what immeasurable is.

This is our definition for Immeasurable:

Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations" section below.

Lots of our new members often assume that speed feats that “transcend time” are inherently immeasurable speed.

Sure, part of the reason why probably has to do with the use of buzz-words like “transcend,” but I also think our definition could use a minor readjustment. Like one word level of minor.

Specifically, the word “beyond” …. I think the word “beyond” as used in this sentence: “Movement beyond linear time” gives users the wrong impression.

“Beyond,” in character debate context, usually means “transcended” or “above” …… Like how you often hear people say “X character is beyond space and time.” Because of this I think people assume the definition is trying to imply that transcending time = immeasurable

My proposal is very simple, but in my opinion, would make the definition clearer. Change the first sentence of the immeasurable definition from:

“Movement beyond linear time”

TO

“Physical movement that is not limited by linear time”

And yea.

Agree (1): @DarkDragonMedeus, @Antvasima
Disagree (1) @Executor_N0

 

[Deagonx]

I believe that changes to ability criteria have to be staff only, so I will move this to the staff discussion thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sounds like a simple change that works better.

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Ultima_Reality Thoughts?

 

[Thelastmlg]

i was given permission to comment here by Deagonx

i think adding "physical" to the movement wouldn't make a difference since pretty much all speed feats, or even a lot time travel, uses physical movement, more importantly, changing "beyond" to "through" might not help much because a lot of feats that people think are immesurable are just time travel activated with speed or just movement/gestures, and this might confuse others

the main thing about immensurable speed is that your movement is not bound to the flow of time, as in, you aren't obligatted to have your actions take place in the present and affect the future like the usual timeline, you can interact with, reach and react to any of the 3 periods of time due to not being stuck in any of them 1 at a time

so technically speaking, movement "beyond" linear time is perfect, the issue is that a lot of time, "beyond" and "transcending" are related to simply breaking out of the grasp of time and/or space by moving around them with more freedom, regardless of the methods utilized, such as powers or devices, if they were to use those words to refer to actual movement that surpass the limits of time itself, instead of the mere act of going from Hour A to Hour B, it would be accurate

so instead, we could perhaps change it to "Overrall movement that is not limited to linear time" or something that emphasis on your freedom

 

[Catzlaflame]

i was given permission to comment here by Deagonx

i think adding "physical" to the movement wouldn't make a difference since pretty much all speed feats, or even a lot time travel, uses physical movement, more importantly,

It is meant to show that hax-based time travel would not hold the same weight as physically moving through time. It’s worth including because it’s probably the hardest thing to prove when trying to give someone immeasurable. Also, If it wasn’t worth mentioning, then it wouldn’t be emphasized so much in the “Further Explanations” section. A key requirement like that should be mentioned in the “primary” definition.

Also, no, I don’t believe most time travel is physical movement at all. In fact, most examples I can think of are hax-based

SNIP

I mean, “movement that is not limited by linear time” and “movement through linear time” is not really… that big of a difference. But i understand what you mean. I probably should have chosen words that highlight the “freedom across time” idea better as opposed to hyper-focusing on the literal movement through time. And that still establishes a fine line between the “typical” definition of words like Transcend and how it’s used in this context. Will update.

 

[Executor_N0]

There has always been some confusion regarding Immeasurable Speed in the forums, so I might say a thing or two about this.

At least in the way it's written, it always sounded to me that Immeasurable Speed is any movement that goes beyond the limit of exchange of mass or information in a given space-time continuum, with motion at rates above said limit breaking the temporal continuity of said continuum (I personally dislike the current explanation of it being "faster than infinite speed", since it might be something that just can't be compared that way).

This explanation covers basically stuff like how some people think it's confusing that time travel with FTL might qualify as Immeasurable Speed, it's because the limit of movement in that space-time continuum is the speed of light and even giving infinite energy isn't enough to break that limit. So FTL in said space-time continuum is equivalent to going beyond the limits of what can be transferred in space-time while maintaining continuity. If the universe allows to infinite speed to be exchanged while continuity in space-time is still a thing, then the speed of light in the first continuum and infinite speed in the next one has the same "general energy", with the only difference being the absolute rate of exchange from an outside observer, as the rate on the perspective of those in said speed is the same. (As light itself, if it had a mind, wouldn't perceive time as everything is happening all at once from the perspective of those at the limit of space-time in the Theory of Relativity).

The problem with the way some people might understand "physical" is that many times the existence that surpasses the limits of space and time is not featured in a physical way, it has just been a way of saying "it can 'move', and isn't just an ability it activates in specific conditions". But again, even saying "move" doesn't work in some cases when it's.

The same is also the explanation for the "beyond time" stuff. When it's a description of something that is really eternal (As in outside of all time, not sempiternity), it kind of is Immeasurable Speed. If it's used to describe other stuff, like just having the ability to move across time or immortality, of course, it wouldn't be.

Semantics can really be the question here, because while "Physical movement" is a good description to get the baseline idea of it, there are also many cases where it would be questioned if that is even something we could call physical movement (If needed, Physical movement would be the way it's perceived inside the timestream, instead of the way it's perceived whatever way of existence beyond time is).

 

[Catzlaflame]

There has always been some confusion regarding Immeasurable Speed in the forums, so I might say a thing or two about this.

At least in the way it's written, it always sounded to me that Immeasurable Speed is any movement that goes beyond the limit of exchange of mass or information in a given space-time continuum, with motion at rates above said limit breaking the temporal continuity of said continuum (I personally dislike the current explanation of it being "faster than infinite speed", since it might be something that just can't be compared that way).

This explanation covers basically stuff like how some people think it's confusing that time travel with FTL might qualify as Immeasurable Speed, it's because the limit of movement in that space-time continuum is the speed of light and even giving infinite energy isn't enough to break that limit. So FTL in said space-time continuum is equivalent to going beyond the limits of what can be transferred in space-time while maintaining continuity. If the universe allows to infinite speed to be exchanged while continuity in space-time is still a thing, then the speed of light in the first continuum and infinite speed in the next one has the same "general energy", with the only difference being the absolute rate of exchange from an outside observer, as the rate on the perspective of those in said speed is the same. (As light itself, if it had a mind, wouldn't perceive time as everything is happening all at once from the perspective of those at the limit of space-time in the Theory of Relativity).

Makes sense. Tho I believe what your saying counters the idea of immeasurable all together. When ya get down to the science behind it, yea, immeasurable speed is just producing movement that “goes beyond the limit of exchange of mass” and “breaks” the temporal continuity. But like you say, that is dependent on the limits of the specific universe….

when you mentioned the “general energy” thing, yea, it’s “proportional” when looking from the inside, but we are those “outside observers” that you described. Looking from the outside, we are able to determine that someone whose movement breaks a temporal continuity in a universe where SOL is the limit and a universe where infinite speed is the limit are absolutely not the same speed. In tandem, they should not be treated the same way under SBA. Our current Immeasurable speed ignores this, and puts everyone who can do this under the same tier.

Like should it really be its own tier? As opposed to just a characteristic of different speed tiers depending on the continuity they lie in? At least that’s what I made of it. Correct me if i misunderstood anything.

 

[Deagonx]

Looking from the outside, we are able to determine that someone whose movement breaks a temporal continuity in a universe where SOL is the limit and a universe where infinite speed is the limit are absolutely not the same speed. In tandem, they should not be treated the same way under SBA. Our current Immeasurable speed ignores this, and puts everyone who can do this under the same tier.

This is a very good point. We shouldn't give immeasurable speed to characters who break time going FTL, and in doing so, consider them faster than characters who are MFTL+ simply because their author decided not to include time shenanigans as part of their speed.

 

[Executor_N0]

In tandem, they should not be treated the same way under SBA. Our current Immeasurable speed ignores this, and puts everyone who can do this under the same tier.

Like should it really be its own tier? As opposed to just a characteristic of different speed tiers depending on the continuity they lie in? At least that’s what I made of it. Correct me if i misunderstood anything.

The problem with not being the same is that by all intent and proposes, in a universe where the speed of light is the speed limit and where the speed limit is infinite, the amount of energy needed for a character to break continuity is still the same. If I pick a character that can generate infinite energy and move at the speed of light in a universe just like ours, if I put that same character in a universe where that limit doesn't exist, he would move at infinite speed (And wouldn't be able to notice a thing because, under its own perspective, it has always been the same thing). And this isn't a very unusual concept, as one of the basic uses of hyperspace in some fiction is exactly getting into a universe (Or plane of the universe) where the laws of physics are different allowing a non-SoL character to move at FTL speeds, because all that was stopping it were just the laws of that plane of the universe. I'm sure if we had enough information we could even be able to translate the speeds that characters could achieve if we had all the laws of the different universes laid out to us (It's impossible to any practical moves, but seems like a nice thought experiment).

In general Immeasurable speed always seemed more to be about two things. One is physical movements that aren't possible by our linear perspective, that is where the whole time-traveling or "can punch you in the past" seems to be from. The other are about cases where there's no real physical movement, as it's something that is happening in Eternity, as what is happening over there is in a place beyond the notions of time and space that are merely put into a shape that can be analyzed by beings that need time and space to operate. So it's a Immeasurable speed that isn't really speed, as it lacks space and time to operate.

 

[Catzlaflame]

is exactly getting into a universe (Or plane of the universe) where the laws of physics are different allowing a non-SoL character to move at FTL speeds, because all that was stopping it were just the laws of that plane of the universe.

Lets say character X is stated to be moving at the speed of light. There is another character, character Y, which exists in a separate universe and is stated to also be moving at the speed of light. Let’s say both universes had different speed limits/different laws. I don’t believe that from an “outsiders perspective” they would be different speeds because:

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My point is this. Don’t the differing laws in different universes affect the point at which a certain character can break continuity? and NOT the actual speed they move at. Otherwise, why would something like the speed of light be constant no matter the universe?

In a universe where the speed of light is the speed limit

and [in a universe] where the speed limit is infinite,

the amount of energy needed for a character to break continuity is still the same.

Yea the amount of energy would be the same, but In the former verse, someone who’s seemingly just FTL would APPEAR immeasurable (cus they broke temporal continuity). Meanwhile, in the latter verse, that same FTL character would not appear immeasurable at all, no?

correct me if I misunderstood anything

 

[KLOL506]

We already don't allow going beyond FTL and time-travelling as a result to be Immeasurable. At all. It's just designated as FTL with Time Travel.

Immeasurable requires blatant statements of moving above and beyond the timestream, or literally moving across time as if it were a physical plane of existence, with nothing but sheer speed. Or so I am told.

 

[Executor_N0]

Lets say character X is stated to be moving at the speed of light. There is another character, character Y, which exists in a separate universe and is stated to also be moving at the speed of light. Let’s say both universes had different speed limits/different laws. I don’t believe that from an “outsiders perspective” they would be different speeds because:

My point is this. Don’t the differing laws in different universes affect the point at which a certain character can break continuity? and NOT the actual speed they move at. Otherwise, why would something like the speed of light be constant no matter the universe?

Yea the amount of energy would be the same, but In the former verse, someone who’s seemingly just FTL would APPEAR immeasurable (cus they broke temporal continuity). Meanwhile, in the latter verse, that same FTL character would not appear immeasurable at all, no?

correct me if I misunderstood anything

Maybe a bit of confusion here, so I'll address the basic concepts.

1) What we call the "speed of light" doesn't really start with light; instead, it's the speed of causality or rate of changes in space-time, and light particles just happen to have properties that allow them to be at that value. What defines that value is the laws of the universe; it's no different from the gravitational constant or any other universal constant; it's the speed of things like light that is defined by the laws of the universe, not the opposite. If we were just to change the value of the speed of causality, so would the speed of light particles change and a bunch of other stuff that might not even make that universe inhabitable (So universes with other laws of physics would need a lot more changes than just changing the constant of causality; they might even separate the speed of light from the speed of causality altogether).

2) Speed, in this context for objects with mass, isn't just defined by a value that someone can reach under a certain moment, instead, it's the value that the rate object with mass X can move in space-time with a certain amount of kinetic energy. If I pick a car motor with mass X and put it into a car with mass 2X, that other car will not achieve the same speeds as the first car, as what defines the speed is the kinetic energy applied to the mass value, and of course, the law that defines that relationship. If I pick a character that lives in a universe where the GBE of the Earth isn't just defined by the same values as ours, but by some different force that increases the GBE to infinity, that character wouldn't be able to destroy that planet using the same energy as we could, but that doesn't mean he can't destroy our Earth as he can make enough energy to destroy it, it just happens he lives in a universe where the earth has infinite durability, if we were to pick that character and put it into our universe, he could be able to destroy the earth.

3) In that case, what I'm talking here is about the energy/strain needed to achieve the speed limit of that universe, something that needs (If they follow a variation of how our Relativistic kinetic energy formula works) infinite energy. If we were to put a character that can achieve lightspeed in a universe like ours and put it into a universe where the speed limit isn't finite, he would move at infinite speed, because he's producing the same kinetic energy, but the speed value that kinetic energy grants is different.

Take an example from this comic panel from Quasar

Here Makkari is moving in a higher-dimensional space with laws different from the conventional plane of the universe, what is different? Speed there have no relativistic effects, so he can increase his speed to lightspeed or above with no need to generate infinite energy, as the laws there are different. He doesn't need to generate more energy or "his speed is limited to the value it showed in his original universe", instead his speed is defined by what the laws of that space-time determine something with X amount of kinetic energy can move across different points in space in a certain amount of time.

So in theory, the strain needed for someone to move at the speed of light in our universe is the same as one moving at infinite speed in a Newtonian universe. In the same way moving "beyond the space-time limit" is also the same amount of "transcendental energy" (If we can even call it that).

 

[Catzlaflame]

Snip

okay, took some time to really look into this and do some external research, and I think I have a relative understanding of the differentiation, so I’ll drop the point about immeasurable being pointless. You made some fair points.

Regarding the initial point of the thread you said:

Semantics can really be the question here, because while "Physical movement" is a good description to get the baseline idea of it, there are also many cases where it would be questioned if that is even something we could call physical movement (If needed, Physical movement would be the way it's perceived inside the timestream, instead of the way it's perceived whatever way of existence beyond time is).

Is there a write-up you can think of that is more encompassing of what immeasurable speed is than the one that is in the OP, but is more straightforward than the current write-up on the Speed page.

 

[Antvasima]

The clarification change suggested in the first post of this thread seemed good to me.

In summary, what do you want to do here exactly, @Executor_N0 ?

 

[Executor_N0]

The clarification change suggested in the first post of this thread seemed good to me.

In summary, what do you want to do here exactly, @Executor_N0 ?

Giving more details to explain why merely "go beyond time" without clarification doesn't give Immeasurable is always helpful, it's just that it's not that "transcending space-time" doesn't provide Immeasurable, in the upcoming Marvel revisions there are a bunch of Abstract Concepts that have the immeasurable speed classification due to their nature as complete transcendence over conventional space-time continuum with "movements" and "existence" that can't even be described with real physical descriptions.

Our detailed rulings already mention some of that nuance, although it seems it's still a confusing subject in some profiles (For example, the speed rulings imply that moving across time due to FTL speeds isn't something accepted, but the Flash-family all have Immeasurable speed while traveling through time, which is often explained in the lore to be done within relativistic rules as they approach the speed of light to stop time and go faster than it to move across time). So even in regards to the rulings, there's some nuance if there's enough information about the settings, which was really always the problem if the space-time transcendence has enough evidence to mean something to the state of existence of the character as a type of qualitative superiority, it's often accepted.

My objective was more to think about the subject and explain more of the nuance, especially in the case of characters "Physical movement" is a misnomer.

If I were to suggest something, maybe something like "Physical movement, or equivalent to their existence, that is not limited by linear time" so it works well in the case of beings whose metaphysical existence isn't limited to linear time, but can't really be called physical movement.

 

[Antvasima]

Giving more details to explain why merely "go beyond time" without clarification doesn't give Immeasurable is always helpful, it's just that it's not that "transcending space-time" doesn't provide Immeasurable, in the upcoming Marvel revisions there are a bunch of Abstract Concepts that have the immeasurable speed classification due to their nature as complete transcendence over conventional space-time continuum with "movements" and "existence" that can't even be described with real physical descriptions.

Our detailed rulings already mention some of that nuance, although it seems it's still a confusing subject in some profiles (For example, the speed rulings imply that moving across time due to FTL speeds isn't something accepted, but the Flash-family all have Immeasurable speed while traveling through time, which is often explained in the lore to be done within relativistic rules as they approach the speed of light to stop time and go faster than it to move across time). So even in regards to the rulings, there's some nuance if there's enough information about the settings, which was really always the problem if the space-time transcendence has enough evidence to mean something to the state of existence of the character as a type of qualitative superiority, it's often accepted.

My objective was more to think about the subject and explain more of the nuance, especially in the case of characters "Physical movement" is a misnomer.

If I were to suggest something, maybe something like "Physical movement, or equivalent to their existence, that is not limited by linear time" so it works well in the case of beings whose metaphysical existence isn't limited to linear time, but can't really be called physical movement.

Thank you for your explanation.

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about this?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Thank you for your explanation.

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

I will remind DontTalk about this.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

From this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-standards-but-not-really.133158/ We should also list some examples of what qualifies as immeasurable speed and what doesn't here after we've applied this semantic change.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that seems like a good idea.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@DontTalkDT

 

[Antvasima]

I will remind him again.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I will remind him again.

Do we seriously need him here, though? This is an extremely minor change that's simply a rewording of the summary to match the explanation, and DT is already quite busy with the new tiering revisions.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Do we seriously need him here, though? This is an extremely minor change that's simply a rewording of the summary to match the explanation, and DT is already quite busy with the new tiering revisions.

@Antvasima

 

[Antvasima]

Can you remind me regarding the changes that have been suggested here, and which staff members that think what regarding the issue, please?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Can you remind me regarding the changes that have been suggested here, and which staff members that think what regarding the issue, please?

@Executor_N0

 

[Executor_N0]

@Executor_N0

This was a very old discussion, but I don't think it was ever decided on making changes, just helping to understand why things are the way they are. I'm working on a deeper analysis of immeasurable speed and temporal transcendence in general thanks to some books I'm reading, but I'm currently working on my graduation thesis so I'm not on the time to really publish a blog and discussion, if it ever gets or not to change stuff (Especially considering the current revision on Tier 1s).

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This was a very old discussion, but I don't think it was ever decided on making changes, just helping to understand why things are the way they are. I'm working on a deeper analysis of immeasurable speed and temporal transcendence in general thanks to some books I'm reading, but I'm currently working on my graduation thesis so I'm not on the time to really publish a blog and discussion, if it ever gets or not to change stuff (Especially considering the current revision on Tier 1s).

Then should we close this and wait for you to make those instead?

 

[Executor_N0]

Then should we close this and wait for you to make those instead?

If everyone is fine with that, I see no problem.

 

[Antvasima]

My proposal is very simple, but in my opinion, would make the definition clearer. Change the first sentence of the immeasurable definition from:

“Movement beyond linear time”

TO

“Physical movement that is not limited by linear time”

And yea.

Agree (1): @DarkDragonMedeus, @Antvasima
Disagree (1) @Executor_N0

I think that this seems like a harmless and quite useful small change to apply in the meantime.

@Elizhaa @Damage3245 @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkGrath @Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Everything12

 

[Catzlaflame]

I think that this seems like a harmless and quite useful small change to apply in the meantime.

@Elizhaa @Damage3245 @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkGrath @Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Everything12

Actually, a very very old thread by QuasiYuri was applied by Lawyer and his thread proposed essentially the same thing as what I proposed.

so I believe this can be closed now

 

[DarkGrath]

Actually, a very very old thread by QuasiYuri was applied by Lawyer and his thread proposed essentially the same thing as what I proposed.

so I believe this can be closed now

I will close this, then.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.