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Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

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Oh, alright. I was confused. you said User had the more compelling argument, but you still disagree with them.
 
Wait if we removed the Immeasurable speed, would this affect characters like Archie Silver or Archie Shadow or Archie Solaris since their lore and feats is pretty much basically like the 2006 Game?

Then again Archie Sonic states his speed is Immeasurable during his fight with Hyper Knuckles
 
Hm, re-read the points, and I realize that I said the wrong thing.

Suffice to say, I agree with Theuser's points about Solaris, and I'm neutral about letting Sonic and the others have Immeasurable for the reasons explained.
 
That's understandable. From my point of view, Solaris' own speed wouldn't impact that of the Hedgehogs'.
 
While I do feel my summary covers it decently enough, as I said, Pepto may be able to cover it better than I can.
 
@MysticMania um can i see the script for the japanese?

Doe from what I understand solaris was attacking and existing in all points in time which wouldn't he also attack in the future yet the hedgehogs can fight, dodge and hit solaris despite this?
 
Yes, Solaris would also be attacking the future at the same time. I can try to find the end script for you, if you'd like.
 
For some reason, I just straight up lost my images of said script, so here's this for now. Please be sure to turn on subtitles
 
Here's the English version of the same cutscene, just for reference:


This is for anyone curious to see the differences in dialogue. Nothing changed actually impacts the feat, nor Solaris' nature of being, though.
 
ahhh i see so its all over time so he could simply attack the hedgehogs in the future but even with that they dodge so i feel like there is smth to immesurable if solaris can miss and get hurt if the hedgehogs can be intercepted at any time due to how solaris works
 
Well, it looks like the thread is getting back on track. Coolio.

Though now we're getting some splits in staff consensus.
 
Damn you for summoning me, AKM...

I’ll get some of my sources to give their points as they don’t agree with immeasurable Sonic characters (barring Archie). But just saying that if the reason has to do with all three hedgehogs occupying the entirety of the past, present, and future, then there wouldn’t need to have been 3. If Sonic alone was immeasurable, he would be able to be in the past, present, and future all at the same time. He wouldn’t need Silver to take care of the future and Shadow to take care of the past.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
He wouldn’t need Silver to take care of the future and Shadow to take care of the past.
Click to expand...
This is fanon, they weren't in only three time periods nor just stuck in them, furthermore Shadow says he needed Sonic, not all three of them, this is a misconception, but not that it matters since this wasn't the argument, just read my summary I made literally the first page I keep reposting, including on this one

Can't wait to see Death Battle's anti-immesurable arguments, this is going to be fun
 
MikeBro25 said:
Bit of a derail but what has made the Archie Sonic Super Forms Immeasurable (Without the Solaris feat and Incalcable Statement?)
Click to expand...
Mike, please stop derailing with Archie lol

Also User's right. Shadow only said they needed Sonic and overall doesn't affect his arguments. Cal I swear if you bring reasons already talked about a million times before then I'm gonna kill you
 
Why was it Sonic specifically.

Is it cuz he was the only one who could receive the full boost of the Emeralds at the time?
 
9 pages

**** Sonic he's 10-C

The CHAD Lilac is 1-A

Also from reading the arguments from what I'm getting the immeasurable speed comes from Solaris being temporally omnipresent and the opposing side is saying that it's only range? Wanna make sure.
 
Well ig that would resolve the question of why Shadow and Silver helped if they weren't needed, or if it was because it was specifically a lack of raw power and not speed that caused Sonic to need their help.
 
God, I have so much to respond to. I want to do this in a precise, concise, and clear manner, but there's so much going on at once so quickly! Where did all these people come from? Lmao
I guess the first thing I could start doing is write my own summary, and then I'll debunk some specific arguments like I originally planned. I just wish people would slow down a little
 
JJSliderman said:
Well ig that would resolve the question of why Shadow and Silver helped if they weren't needed, or if it was because it was specifically a lack of raw power and not speed that caused Sonic to need their help.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure it was stated Super Sonic on his own isn't enough to defeat Solaris, which is why he needed Shadow and Silver to help him
 
Yeah so I was just wondering if it was because he wasn't fast enough, or he wasn't strong enough.

But the speed thing is only notable if Solaris existed only at three points in time, which was seemingly debunked.

So it must have been a power thing.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Pretty sure it was stated Super Sonic on his own isn't enough to defeat Solaris, which is why he needed Shadow and Silver to help him
Click to expand...
“The emeralds are carefully placed around Sonic’s body and everybody wishes hard for Sonic’s resurrection-even Dr. Eggman hopes and prays for Sonic’s return, as only the heroic hedgehog has the power and strength to defeat the fires and banish the living flame forever.” http://info.sonicretro.org/images/t...319-469px-Sonic06_Prima_digital_guide.pdf.jpg
 
Oh yeah, if the Emeralds are enhanced by positive emotion it would make sense for Sonic, the one with the most positive connection to Elise, to be amplified by the Emeralds.
 
JJSliderman said:
Well ig that would resolve the question of why Shadow and Silver helped if they weren't needed, or if it was because it was specifically a lack of raw power and not speed that caused Sonic to need their help.
Click to expand...
It was a lack of power. Solaris can destroy the entire Sonic cosmolgy pretty casually, so Sonic shared his Super form with his allies bestowing them his power and turning the fight into a 3v1. This is supported by every statement in the guides, and the game supports them. Super Sonic still downscales from Solaris though.
One statement says Sonic is the only one with the power to defeat Solaris.
Another says that even he can't beat Solaris by himself, so this is the most logical conclusion. Other games support it as well.

We need to stay on topic though. We'll discuss this when I make my Super Shadow and Super Silver downgrade thread. Super Sonic is still 2-C (likely 2-B) and most definitely IMMEASURABLE, which is the current topic. We need to keep this thread about immeasurable speed. We can't allow any more derailment
 
One of cal's arguments was that Sonic wouldn't be immeasurable since he had help from Shadow and Silver to hit Solaris when he wouldn't need that if he was Immeasurable, so the fact that Shadow and Silver were unnecessary speed-wise is sort of important I think
 
True. I guess I forgot where this started from. It's still important to keep in mind though
 
Thank you for slowing down and giving this topic the time and attention it deserves. And sorry for this absolute TOWER of text I’m about to subject you to. Obviously, it’s gonna take a long time for the anti-immeasurables to respond to this if they still disagree, but we should all be free to take the time we need on this. The reason we’re at page 9 is because we all rushed to an answer without really thinking, until we started walking in circles. So, read what follows with an open mind and a moment of retrospection, and I’ll do the same for you. I made sure to go over everything we’ve been through so far before writing this. It was painful, but we’re in the endgame now…



IMMEASURABLE SPEED SUMMARY

Temporal AoE by itself isn’t enough to deal with Solaris’s natural physiology. The hedgehogs would still get blasted continuously by attacks they can’t escape from and they would be unable to land a single hit on Solaris’s core at every point in time like they do repeatidly. If temporal AoE was all they had, they would have been screwed over as soon as they flew out of the rift to meet Solaris. Granted, it’s still an upgrade that’s agreed upon, but with immeasurable speed, it would be redundant to add it for reasons I’ve already explained. I’ll elaborate even further upon said reasons below. If immeasurable speed is rejected however, here are the other things that can be debated to be added alongside temporal AoE. Here they are:

-INFINITE SPEED: Perhaps the only other speed value that COULD possibly allow them to blitz Solaris the way they do. I still think immeasurable is more likely, but the anti-immeasurable members have yet to properly explain HOW someone with finite speed can dodge attacks from a time-omni. They explain why, but their «how» of it all implies that temporal omnipresence is a detriment to combat rather than a benefit. (Kudos to Greenshifter for explaining why and saving me some time) It makes sense for a space-omni to have limited reaction time since they’re still bound by the flow of time. Feeling regular characters navigate inside of them is sort of the same thing as a human feeling a fly crawl inside their skin (for a lack of a less gross example), which means they know exactly where the fly is, but they can’t know where it’s gonna go next, and the fly can still appear extremely fast to them. For a time-omni however, that speed would remain meaningless. The fly can travel through space as fast as it wants, it’s still gonna be bound by time regardless. The time-omni would still be able to see the fly’s entire life span down to fractions of attosecond before the fly even decides to confront it. That was the whole point of my comparison board between infinites, space-omnis, immeasurables, and time-omnis. It’s technically possible to restrain a space-omni to finite levels since they still embody a 3D concept, but to blitz a time-omni like Sonic does, you’d have to travel from the beginning to the end of time in less than an instant to be able bypass the reactions of someone who can see it all take place instantly, and guess how the speed page describes immeasurable speed?: «The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly.» This description also explains how immeasurable speed can simulate temporal omnipresence. If an immeasurable character can travel to any point in time faster than instantaneously… if time is but another direction they can travel to at whichever speed that they want… then what’s stopping them from going back and forth between the beginning of time and the end of it? That way, they can have their presence felt through every point in time while casually flying through space. If immeasurable speed CAN’T grant temporal AoE, then you need to change your immeasurable speed definition and the standards that go along with it. Either way, temporal AoE and infinite speed is the absolute least Super Sonic can have.

-TEMPORAL OMNIPRESENCE OF THIER OWN (across one third of time?): This one is weird, but surprisingly straight forward. Aside from immeasurable speed, the only way to nullify temporal omnipresence like the hedgehogs do is with omnipresence of their own. If Solaris could gain it from the emeralds, why not the Super forms too, right? If you read the part of my board about space-omnis, you’ll also notice that while giving this to the hedgehogs wouldn’t automatically grant them immeasurable speed, it would allow them to keep up with immeasurable characters the same way a space-omni SHOULD be able keep up with an infinite.

-TYPE 2 ACAUSALITY (unlikely): I think this one was dropped? I guess it could explain how the Super forms can survive Solaris’ attacks and travel to the same places where said attacks will be or used to be, but them being able to do that could just be immeasurable speed doing its thing of dodging an attack after already being hit. It could also be a result of countering Solaris’s temporal omnipresence with their own. Basically, every other option is more likely than this one, but it’s still worth mentioning.



CONCLUSION: All of these options make the Super forms’ power sets way more complicated than they should be, when really, immeasurable speed by itself makes more sense than any combination of the abilities above, as it covers all corners and doesn’t have the potential mind-**** that thier own omnipresence would bring. If I’m wrong in any of this despite all the time I’ve thought it through, then I guess an alternative would be to give them infinite speed, temporal AoE and /or type 2 acausality? Basically, I think immeasurable speed makes the most sense, but I still bring up other solutions to be open minded and find an objective conclusion. Anything that isn’t JUST temporal AoE is closer to the truth than what DarkDragon and Duedate are suggesting imo.



HOW IMMEASURABLE SPEED SOLVES EVERY PROBLEM SOLARIS’S SUPER-DIMENSIONAL PHYSIOLOGY BRINGS TO THE TABLE WITHOUT TURNING THE FIGHT INTO A STOMP (and why temporal AoE isn’t enough)

This brings up a few points I’ve already brought up in the past. I’m just re-iterating and creating this separate chapter for the sake of clarity and to make sure I’ve properly covered everything.

-Temporal AoE should allow the hedgehogs to hit Solaris’ core at every point in time, dealing some lasting damage to him, however, it doesn’t allow them to reach that core to begin with due to Solaris’ numerous defenses, much less bypass his reactions, which are clearly both still a factor in the fight.

-Immeasurable speed can grant temporal AoE and omnipresence to counter Solaris’. The only difference is that for Solaris, they’re both passive abilities attached to his physiology, while for the Super forms, they need to remain active to keep it in effect. Immeasurable speed is the best explanation as to why Solaris’ attacks don’t linger and neither do his movement.

-Super Sonic can see Solaris as one entity, whereas every other non-Super character sees him as a bright blur that can’t be identified. The only one who somewhat knows what they’re dealing with is Eggman, and even then, nothing about his words imply that he can see what Solaris looks like. He knows he has a body of light, and that there should be something anchoring him in the dimension (which better not be used as an anti-immeasurable argument, because it’s already been debunked in many other threads). Eggman has an I.Q of 300 and studied the Solaris project, so this all makes sense. The fact that Sonic can see an omnipresent being as if it was one clear entity while everyone else can’t proves that the writers have some idea how temporal omnipresence works, while also proving that the Super forms must have something similar. There’s no other way for them to just deny something major like that. Temporal AoE clearly does not cut it by itself.
Edit: This one isn't actually that relevent

-Without immeasurable speed, the hedgehogs would get blasted by the same attack over and over, without the possibility to escape it. You don’t see them dodge an attack that’s already hit them? That’s because the characters do it passively. You can’t make your character navigate in a 4D space with just buttons and a joystick, so the characters do it automatically. They can still get hurt by Solaris’ attacks? Yeah, no shit. Immeasurable speed doesn’t make this fight a cakewalk for them. It just allows them to keep up and perceive Solaris the same way he perceives himself, which makes sense if you look back at my comparison board.



MORE EVIDENCE FOR IMMEASURABLE

-FTL speed feats are pretty common in the Sonic verse, and not once did one of them result in time travel without the aid of warp panels which specifically serve that purpose. So right off the bat, there’s already something different going on with the Super forms flying to different time periods.

-Immeasurable characters can upscale from other immeasurable characters. Downgrading the Super forms back to MFTL+ because their scaling is TOO impressive is even more illogical than the feat itself.

-Super Sonic was confirmed to be the only one powerful enough to stop Solaris, which means that contrary to what Cal says, him being helped by Shadow and Silver doesn’t debunk immeasurable speed at all. It is also stated that even Sonic can’t beat Solaris alone, but this is much more likely to be due to Solaris’ raw cosmology breaking power power rather than his basic physiology. Each Super hedgehog still downscales from Solaris’ power though, since they all draw power from the same source and can each match Mephiles and Iblis in thier base. I’m glad Cal and I agree on the fact that immeasurable speed can replicate the benefits of temporal omnipresence and AoE though. It goes to show that not all mods think the same and we can’t remove immeasurable speed just yet.

ADRESSING SPECIFIC POINTS AND CRITCISM

DarkDragon: You accused me of cherry picking, but all I did was apply the basic implications of temporal omnipresence to Solaris’ perceptions and movements. Meanwhile, you apply the weaknesses of a space-omni to a time-omni without acknowledging the clear differences between the two, using inconsistencies from other series just to back up your point while I use dimensional tiering. Spatial omnipresence is size and spatial intangibillity, but saying the same thing about temporal omnipresence comes off as extremely disingenuous. They are two different types of omnipresence with different implications, so you shouldn’t place them in the same basket because they’re both omnipresence. Solaris is naturally the size of a building in physical space, but every movement he makes is unbound by time. His omnipresence is infinitely above a regular 3D omnipresence in the same way 4D power is infinitely above 3D power. By the way, Wally West is a bad example for someone who is only occasionally immeasurable, since he can speed-blitz other immeasurable characters and OUTRUN the god damn speed force. His feats defy all logic. Maybe you were referring to Wally in his early years, but even then, he could go beyond infinite speed by absorbing a finite amount of kinetic energy. His feats never made any sense, but that’s actually a part of why he’s earned his immeasurable ranking so much.

Duedate: You say that I’m missing the point. That my arguments don’t actually support immeasurable speed, and that I’m using guesswork, but tell me: If my hypothetical scenario for Solaris’ omnipresence was a reality, would the hedgehogs have immeasurable speed or not? If so, then thier feat goes beyond that, and it’s still immeasurable. If not, then why? You say that omnipresence isn’t a speed, but a state of being that makes speed irrelevant. So then why did DarkDragon say that space-omnis can have finite speeds, and that regular people can avoid thier influence? Is it irrelevant or finite? Don’t get the wrong idea. I do agree that space-omnis can have limited reaction speeds, since they’re still bound by time, but time-omnis are whole other story. They’re like space-omnis, but on 4D scale, rather than a 3D one.

CONCLUSION: You seem to be contradicting yourselves and each other. ShakeResounding noticed it too. Meanwhile, the only disagreements pro-immeasurables had with each other were on specifics such as wether or not Sonic Forces retcons Generations, and that’s being generous. If you read my summary, followed by TheUser’s, followed by MysticMania’s, you’ll notice none of our arguments contradict each other. If anything, they complete each other into a perfect bigger picture. You certainly won’t be removing immeasurable anytime soon since even staff members are split.
 
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