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Ichigo vs Asta
- Thread starter Robo432343
- Start date
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Imma check Asta's profile and see if its more fair
Xinsignia1
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Why would mana need to be equalized to Reitsu? Reitsu and magic power/maryoku should be equated since they're the exerted forces that's exerted from the power of one's soul. Reitsu is exerted reiyoku no? Magic power works the same way.
Mana would be more similar to reishi since they're both fundamental components that souls come from/origin. Regardless Asta can still negate both.
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Can Asta's Anti Magic negate Non soul based energy?
Xinsignia1
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Asta's negated curse power/juryoku, so yes?
Catbowtie
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No, I'm not sure. I just assumed all Bleach characters that have a white cloak have Soul Crush GGs.
ReaperAndBlues
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Any Shinigami and Arrancar has Soul Crush. Ichigo also had used it before against two captains on the bridge in the SS arc. Beyond that he also has passive corruption
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reiatsu is an ability, reiryoku (dont know if I spelt that right) is the actual energy system.
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Are you sure?
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yh? reiatsu is the spiritual pressure you can release right? and that can be increased or reduced.
the closest equivalence would the pressure devils and beings with high magic power release but obviously there's differences
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reiryoku is the actual energy spent on bankai or kido and hado iirc
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Are you 100% completely sure?yh? reiatsu is the spiritual pressure you can release right? and that can be increased or reduced.
the closest equivalence would the pressure devils and beings with high magic power release but obviously there's differences
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What do you think then?
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magic power is technically soul based anyway
Kazuma_kuwabara
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I can't continue the joke, you wins this time
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i thought mana is reiatsu
Epsilon_R
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No, basically Mana > Maryoku (Magic Power) and the latter would I guess be comparable to reiatsu
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What? Magic is literally done with Mana, how does that work?
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Genuinely don't even worry about it.
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Epsilon_R
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Mana is a fundamental energy that exists everywhere, it acts as the ideal shape of the soul.
Mana, like other energies in BC (Life Force for instance, or even devil power to an extent) can be converted into Magic Power, but by themselves, they are essentially different
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Yes, I am aware of that.
The question is, how can you equalize Magic/Magic Power to Spiritual Power if you can't equalize Mana (nor Life Force nor Devil Power) to Spiritual Energy from Bleach?
To equalize it you'd need at least one of the 3 to be a valid equalization to Bleach's energy source.
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reishi = mana (both exist naturally iirc abt reishi)
reiryoku = magic power (both exists within individuals). Refer to the image below, it says that shinigami use reishi to stand on air and quincy use it to form weapons. It's totally similar to how mages in black clover use magic power to manipulate mana to expand and use their mana zones to stand on air, and to form mana runes.
magic is done with magic power which is mana made into a lifeform. mana is naturally found in nature.
reiatsu, which is spiritual pressure, is when a individual flexes their spiritual energy, aka their reiryoku, which is all to similar to when mages who have a fk ton of magic power or devils flex their magic power causing them to negate and nullify an opponents weaker magic. again obviously there's minor differences.
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Not saying I disagree, but having the same uses doesn't mean it can be equalized. Tho I have to add that AFAIK reishi and reiryoku aren't the same thing, so like, you can't equalize Mana to Reishi and then magic, which is done with Mana, to Reiryoku (that's if they're indeed different stuff, I am no Bleach expert).reishi = mana (both exist naturally iirc abt reishi)
reiryoku = magic power (both exists within individuals). Refer to the image below, it says that shinigami use reishi to stand on air and quincy use it to form weapons. It's totally similar to how mages in black clover use magic power to manipulate mana to expand and use their mana zones to stand on air, and to form mana runes.
magic is done with magic power which is mana made into a lifeform. mana is naturally found in nature.
reiatsu, which is spiritual pressure, is when a individual flexes their spiritual energy, aka their reiryoku, which is all to similar to when mages who have a fk ton of magic power or devils flex their magic power causing them to negate and nullify an opponents weaker magic. again obviously there's minor differences.
To be equalized they need to have the same nature and from my understanding of BC, especially this, Mana is just a magical-natural energy which attaches itself to one's soul and from there affects it, but I wouldn't say it's spiritual in nature since it doesn't originate in the soul itself.
As others said, Mana and Reiryoku weren't equalized in another thread, so I'd at least say people so far agree they're not the same, although I can understand your points.
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Equalize Reiryoku and Mana so this match can happen
Xinsignia1
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No, that's incorrect. Mana is not magical energy, mana=/=magic. The scan you posted is explaining what happens to the external mana that enters a living creature. A different form of energy aka magic power is generated. Mana is both internal and external, and exist independently of magic power.
Furthermore, magic and magic power are just some of the various applications of mana, not the only ones. For example, here it's stated Gadja is floating without using magic, he's manipulating the mana around him without using magic. Yuno also realized that Licht was making himself + others float without using magic, since the the mana around him was so dense.
No, that's also incorrect. Mana is 100% spiritual. Dryad a deity from Elysia explained that mana is the origin of one's soul. Every single being, with the exception of Asta and Liebe, is born with their mana. Not only are mana affinities inherited and passed down, but it's fundamentally, a part of their being/existence, hence why their life force is comprised of it. And that life force, is also separate from their magical power/maryoku. There is no "attachment".
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I said magical-NATURAL, no idea why you're focusing on the first half and ignoring the second, Mana is magical/supernatural and is used to perform the Magic in the verse, this doesn't invalidate what I said.
Sure? Not sure how does that add anything to the topic of equalizing both energies.
Did you read the question I linked? The author himself said mana "makes home in living creatures" which means it's not part of them until they're already living beings, add the sheer fact Asta has a soul but doesn't have mana is proof by itself that Mana and Souls aren't one and the same like you're arguing. Btw, the author himself says magic power is a consequence of having Mana in this same question, so I don't see how Magic Power is somehow separate from Mana.
Also, this is the first time I've seen someone claim life force and mana are the same, because Ki (life force in BC) can't be nulled by Asta's anti-magic even tho it drains/nulls mana from those who hold his sword or have it stabbed into them.
Anyway, what matters here is equalizing Bleach and Black Clover, from the look of it and the previous threads I really don't think they can be equalized.
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"as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses"
Xinsignia1
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I keep focusing on "that" because mana is not magic. Simple as that. You keep insisting that mana is magic when it's not. You keep conflating the two when they're not the same. Yes you said it's natural, but you're also saying it'd magical. It's not magical, especially when the series goes out of it's way several times to tell you that it's not magic.
You said it's magical energy, and I'm telling you it's not. A person's life force isn't sustained by magic.
I've read that scan various times already, and im very familiar with it. I have a very comprehensive understanding of BC's power system, and I'm telling you, that what YOU (not Tabata) stated is incorrect. The soul is the source of one's life, mind and magic, all of these aspects are derived from mana since its their origin. Moreover departed souls literally still have mana. The soul of Licht's unborn that died, the souls of the massacred elves, Acier's soul that Megicula controlled, they literally all have mana. So this whole "only the living have mana" thing is headcannon and completely unsubstantiated.
Asta is literally considered an abomination, and shouldn't even be alive which is why Lucius considers him the the flaw of the world and wants him eliminated. His literally future can't even be read and this is before anti-magic even existed. So I don't even know why would even use him to support your point considering he's a paradoxical anomaly in verse, he shouldn't even be alive. Also no one said souls=mana. I said souls come from the mana. It's literally stated to be it's origin.
The question ask what's the difference between mana, magic power, and magic, they're clearly separate, and he literally explains the differences. They're all different things. Not only that but magic power (maryoku/yoryoku)is converted from your ki, which is also a separate energy.
When did I say life force is the same as mana? I said their life force is comprised of it, not that "it is" it.
They can be equalized, you're conflating various terms which is why this conversation is even happening.
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I said "magical" in the sense of being a fantastical, supernatural, energy not that it's a form of magic, again, that's why I said magical-natural, because it's a supernatural, hence the magical part, but that is everywhere in nature, hence the natural part.
Mana isn't part of someone until they're already alive, Tabata literally said that in that question and I directly quoted it, "it makes its home in a living creature"
Sure? That just means the Mana is kept after death, it doesn't mean much to the process of the soul being created and Mana interacting with souls.
I think you didn't understand the point? Not sure really, him being an "abomination" or his future not being readable doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about.
Also, you said mana was 100% spiritual, that's what confused me, but now I get what you meant.
Huh, yes? I didn't claim otherwise, the deal is that they're not completely separate energies, as Tabata explained:
"When mana makes its home in a living creature, it turns into power that can influence other substances, that's magic power. When magic power is refined even further it becomes magic"
Magic Power is just Mana inside a living being and Magic is Magic Power being actively used/refined, so if Reiryoku can't be equalized to Mana it doesn't make sense to equalize it to Magic Power. IMO, Given how Mana is such a fundamental aspect that makes up so much stuff in BC, I simply can't see how Reiryoku which is essentially just how strong a soul is (and also some Hado or Kido stuff probably) would be equalized to it.
We can agree to disagree with BC stuff (I don't really do feel like debating BC for pages and pages), but I don't understand how these two energies could be equalized when they're not similar in nature.
Xinsignia1
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Incorrect, he said magic power, not mana. You keep conflating the terminology.
Now read the rest of the sentences of that line quote "when mana makes a home into a living creature it turns into power that can influence other substances, and that's magic power"
They're talking about magic power, not mana. So when that soul becomes a living entity some of that mana turns into magic power aka a different form of energy. That quote you keep misinterpreting doesn't even say what you're trying to imply.
The manga states their souls come from mana. There is absolutely no way for you to dispute that especially since mana and magic power can coexist separately within a living creature. Mana already exist within soul the moment it comes into existence. It's their origin, which the manga states. Again, Tabata's statement doesn't disprove, or contradicted that. What are these semantics?
No, I don't think you understand my point. Asta shouldn't exist so using him as the standard doesn't even make sense, or support you argument. That same Asta was unaffected by Zagred's spell that drains magic power + life force. That same Asta survived in his mother's womb despite the fact that she absorbs magical power + life force and kills the target.
FYI, in BC even spirits are made of mana.
Mana undergoes a process that transforms it into magic power. Mana exist in living creatures without becoming magic power since it's a component of both life force, and magical power.
Reiyorko doesn't need to be equalized to mana, in order to be equalized to magic power/maryoku since its also generated from one's ki. It's an entirely different form of energy.
SBA doesn't require the energies to be 1 to 1, just similar enough. And last time I checked reiryoku is a form of energy generated by the soul (which comes from reishi particles) while magical power is a form of energy generated by the soul (which comes from mana) they can definitely be equalized.
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Epsilon_R
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Dragnoir, you're completely misinterpreting that q&a scan
Here, they are talking about the uncontrolled, External Mana, which is the one that can make home into a living creature.
Internal Mana is already inside people before birth. Non-living things like Licht's Unborn Child, has already both an attribute (which is determined by one's inner Mana) and a soul.
Here, they are talking about the uncontrolled, External Mana, which is the one that can make home into a living creature.
Internal Mana is already inside people before birth. Non-living things like Licht's Unborn Child, has already both an attribute (which is determined by one's inner Mana) and a soul.
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What? The quote starts by saying Mana:
"when mana makes a home into a living creature it [mana] turns into power that can influence other substances, and that's magic power"
Magic Power is the power that Mana turns into when it makes home in a living creature, that's literally what's written there, how can you even say that the quote isn't talking about Mana?
That very quote implies that internal mana is acquired through external mana "making home" in someone, rather than "external mana" and "internal mana" being somehow completely separate forms of Mana.
Non-living? It was already alive otherwise it wouldn't have died after the attack Tetia suffered, Secre explicitly says the other twin had survived so in whichever stage of development the twins were, it was already enough to be considered alive.
Kazuma_kuwabara
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You are going to fall Gege
Xinsignia1
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That quote that I pulled out is describing magic power, not mana. Harvesting external mana is a skill, not a natural function so why do you keep repeating the same debunked points?
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The part I quoted and highlighted is explicitly talking about how Mana becomes Magic Power after it enters someone's body.
No one is talking about harvesting mana? Mana naturally enters the body of living beings as the quote implies/explains, that's how "internal mana" is acquired, as Tabata said there, Mana is fundamental and floats in the air.
Anyway, can't we just agree to disagree as I said before? I won't have more time to debate stuff extensively after today due to IRL stuff.
Xinsignia1
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It's talking about "when" it enters the body from an external source which is separate from the mana that exist internally, which is the soul's origin.
The scan is talking about harvesting mana, since harvesting mana is the exact same thing as it entering a living being from an external source.
It was never stated that's how internal magic is acquired. Internal mana is the origin of the soul, not the other way around. Ignoring this scan won't change that.
We can agree to disagree, but your takes are still incorrect.
