Ichigo and Yhwach downgrade

[Amlad22]

When Ichigo first fights Yhwach he gets beat pretty quickly, however he does awaken his blut vene and survive an attack from Yhwach. This wiki has that as a country level durability feat, however that makes no sense since Yhwach wasn't going all out.

http://www.goodmanga.net/bleach/chapter/514/12

We see later in the fight that he had to retreat before he could go all out. So Ichigo is for sure not country level with blut. Small country level is better.

However another problem is that Yhwach is country level in his base form. However in his fight with Yamamoto he was forced to seal away Yamamoto's Bankai because it was too powerful to fight. If he is scared of Yamamoto's country level power, he shouldn't be country level.

Overall the changes I suggest are

Base Yhwach- small country level+ (was forced to seal away Yamamoto's Bankai to beat him)

Base Jugram- small country level+ (shouldn't be stronger than Yhwach)

Balance Jugram- country level (shouldn't be weaker than the elites)

Uryu- small country level+ (shouldn't be above Yhwach, also got stomped by Balance Jugram)

Ichigo's blut vene- large island level (tanked a hit from a suppressed Yhwach

 

[AppleLord]

Yhwach should be Small Country level+, and should powerscale to Gremmy's meteor feat, while Jugram asks the soldiers to protect Yhwach, he didn't flinch and was starring at the meteor himself. Waiting to counter it or tank it.

Another thing, Yhwach's objective was for the old man to use his bankai, so he himself could steal it. Since he was the only one who could use that power, even threaten Yamamoto that if he would like him to revive his own men againts him. Yamamoto's bankai if you haven't check the page can grow up to Small Continent level, which is more powerful than country level.

In the end, Yhwach should be Country level in base (he shouldn't be weaker or equal to Gremmy) and Small Continent level at full power. Royd also said that Yamamoto had weaken since a 1,000 years ago.

Nonetheless, Blut Vene is very impressive. It just uses the reishi to increase their defense in their vene's. People weak as Royd can withstand at close range up to 15 million degrees C, but can't save him from getting hit by that heat and people like As Nodt can survive ÔêÆ273.15┬░C Absolute Zero with Blut Vene. Imagine how crazy Yhwach's blut vene must be.

 

[Amlad22]

Even if Yhwach is country level Ichigo only tanked a surppressed attack from him. So he should be small country level in durability at best. Blut vene is only powerful in the strongest Quincy. Quicny such as As Nodt got broken by Byakuya's shikai which is only town level at best.

 

[AppleLord]

I was referring to heat and cold resistance from fodders. Ichigo unconsciously harm Yhwach with his black reiatsu, that puts him at Country lvl in AP and his durability powerscales from that as it does with all characters. Yhwach at full power in base should be small Continent level powerscaling from Yamamoto's bankai.

 

[Amlad22]

Ichigo never hurt Yhwach in the first fight he only surprised him with the blut. Also Yhwach shouldn't be anywhere near continent level in base since he was scared of Yamamoto's Bankai.

 

[AppleLord]

Yhwach was hurt by the sudden release of Ichigo's black reiatsu.

http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/514/3

http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/514/7

Where is the evidence that he was scared of it?

Yhwach's objective was for the old man to use his bankai in an imposter, because the techniques of the bankai must be known before stealing it.

http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/509/11

He was the only one who could use that power, and he even threaten Yamamoto that if he would like him to revive his own men againts him.

http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/510/13

http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/510/14

Yamamoto's bankai is Small Continent level at full power and Yhwach asked Yamamoto if he wish to die by it. Therefore since Yamamoto's bankai is base on reiatsu, Yhwach's full reiatsu must be at that level.

http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/508/4

Ichibe needs an upgrade, since he defeated Yhwach at full power in base.

 

[Amlad22]

When you're off guard anything can happen. Just like how Rukia beat espada 9 or when Lille shot Nimaya. Yhwach thought he had beaten Ichigo but he didn't.

Why would Yhwach take Yamamoto's Bankai at the very start of the fight? It's because he was afraid of his power, just like how Aizen set up a trap against Aizen because he couldn't take him head on, Yhwach did the same. Yhwach being country level is generous since that's saying his base form is on par with people like Yamamoto and Kenpachi which most likely isn't true. Ichigo only tanked a suppressed attack so some sort of downgrade should be made to his durability. Uryu and Jugram should also be downgraded since they shouldn't be as strong as Yhwach

Ichibei does deserve an upgrade to at least large country level since he beat Yhwach. But that's for another thread.

 

[AppleLord]

Rukia's Zanpakutou appeared inside Espada 9 head and Lille use the X-axis on Nimaiya. Both cases are hax an unrelated. He wasn't caught off guard, Yhwach was still piercing his neck with his sword.

Why would he not? All Bankai's need to be stolen upon release otherwise they can't steal it, if he fought Yamamoto he would had lose over time if he was Country level as you say, because Yamamoto's bankai goes up to Small Continent level.

Not at all, i explain why already.

 

[Amlad22]

In Rukia's case you are wrong. All espada have hierro and espada 9 thought he won so he didn't use his. If Yhwach really was hurt by Ichigo that would put Ichigo at country level which obviously isn't the case since he got one shotted by Jugram.

I can agree to Yhwach being country level, doing this would mean that he is equal to the weaker attacks in Yamamoto's Bankai but not the stronger life wiping attacks. Even going by this the changes to Jugram, Uryu and Ichigo can still be made. Jugram and uryu should both be weaker than Yhwach (not including Jugram when he's using the balance) and Ichigo only tanked a surppressed attack from Yhwach

If you want Ichibei to be upgraded ask LordAizen or someone like him

 

[AppleLord]

Rukia's sword materialize inside his head. He wasn't pierce by it. Any prove on him not using it?

Jugram is stronger than him, just because two people are in the same tier doesn't make them equals.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Yamamoto's Small Continent rating is due to environmental destruction. I don't think anyone can scale to that.

 

[AppleLord]

But Yhwach had his bankai and threaten to use it. Wouldn't he had die if he hadn't had that power?

 

[Amlad22]

He only threatened to use it but never did. He probably knew that he couldn't control its power

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Yeah. How can you scale environmental destruction to other characters? If this was possible, I think Yhwach with Mimihagi Absorbed would have been scaled from this.

 

[AppleLord]

Why would he claim such a thing, and not be able to do it? when he detects lies and kills his men for lying.

Yamamoto's bankai is base on the users Reiatsu, the more reiatsu the user has the more powerful the bankai Zanka No tachi will be.

Scan of this is above.

 

[Amlad22]

He kills his men whenever he feels like it. He's a madman he has no moral code or something of the sort.

 

[AppleLord]

No. That was after becomng Soul King, and when he uses the aswhalen he has no control over who lives and dies. The ones he kills in the first chapters he appears are arrancars, hollows if you may ask. He detects lies. (Chapter 603, page 13)

 

[Amlad22]

Against the person that he hates the most, someone like Yhwach would have no problem lying if it meant he could mess with Yamamoto

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Didn't we have a thread similar to this after the final updates to bleach ?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I know that thread. That one was for their strongest versions. This one is for Fullbringer Bankai Ichigo and Base Yhwach, I think.

 

[Amlad22]

Correct

 

[AppleLord]

Against the person that he hates the most, someone like Yhwach would have no problem lying if it meant he could mess with Yamamoto

Don't think so, he even told him how he acknowledged Yamamoto's younger self that was a demon with the sword a killer.

 

[LordAizenSama]

The only thing that would need changing is Ichigo Durability with blut "At Most" Country level