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I/O Videos

Hellspawn Barbarian said:
Jakob C. Brown said:
I went through a bunch of videos, and I managed to find one in which the Divine Presence shows up, starting at: https://youtu.be/92UDE-GuN74?t=1239 (Including somewhat of the context of the scene)
Click to expand...
Nice catch fam,
Click to expand...
Thanks, though I might just end up playing I/O myself and document my playthrough (sounds like ago-- I mean fun). But in the case I might find more moments of DP showing up or whatever in these videos, I'll let it be known here.
 
I played I/O to the end and this is the /only/ moment this "thing" shows up. It doesn't say anything about its ""omnipotence"" or any of its capacity, and is totally feat-less...

I don't know how the hell you guys concluded it was some "God". It might actually be another character (the guy from that walkthrough suggested it might be Ashur. I'm not quite sure but its much more likely than it being a god). There isn't anything about it.

This is also not the only moment the expression "[heralded by] divine light" is used, its also used by Hinata during HE's summoning.

There are LOTS of things wrong about the I/O profiles. To start with, none should be 1-A. The game never, ever refers to dimensions beyond what quantum mechanics predicts. The "infinite layers" refers to "infinite worlds", that is, "infinite universes". The WHOLE game is about quantum mechanics, so it was to be expected that it has a multiversial structure. But not goddamn infinite spatial dimensions... The only thing special is that the worlds are "ordered" (some are "higher" than others) and that there are infinitely many of them. Its like an infinite tower, and the worlds are stages.
 
The Everlasting said:
I did, they explicitly mention higher dimensions and "infinite layers".
Click to expand...
No, 4D.

The universes (in quantum mechanics, that I/O follows and talk a LOT about, actually all of its story is "explained" by it) are 3D, and the 4D contains them all. Each dimensions contains more lower-dimensional worlds (but finitely many of them being different, the total of different 3D realms adding up to a number close of 10^500)

I/O uses infinitely many universes, fine. How do you know it doesn't put them all in the 4D space? what tells you it intends to go beyond 11D? (Or that it infinitely many universes are identical, just like in reality, and the number of different verses is finite)

I'm saying we lack material, nothing you have says these worlds are each dimensions, not just parts of the next dimension

I/O talk about quantum mechanics without stopping. For examples the "Shadows" can go back in time because they have programm with mass 0, and so the "law of quantum physics apply to them", etc

To me it makes more sense that I/O fully follows quantum physics
 
The Everlasting said:
"In a world of infinite layers."
Tell me how that can refer to universes and not dimensions.
Click to expand...
Tell me how a verse that talks non-stop about quantum physics would talk about dimensions >11 (wich does not exists in quantum physics) rather than staying consistent and using the quantum physic's infinite universes system (which is still consistent with the screenshots)
 
The Living Tribunal1 said:
well if it uses strings then it can be 10-D to 11-D
Click to expand...
Yes, you could say the 10-D structures are the full "universes", and the 11-D is the full multiverse. It just depends what you call a Universe (3-D, 4-D or 10-D)
 
Fluoroantimonic Acid said:
The Living Tribunal1 said:
well if it uses strings then it can be 10-D to 11-D
Click to expand...
Yes, you could say the 10-D structures are the full "universes", and the 11-D is the full multiverse. It just depends what you call a Universe (3-D, 4-D or 10-D)
Click to expand...
well... strings are 10-D, higher dimensions so far only seeem to exist on planck scales, meanwhile the first 3 spatial ones could go on indefinitely in length
 
I don't remember well :v I guess you're right

To return on topic, I think even the "Without a beginning" is enough. Unless you explain me how could there be less-than-0D dimensions. Negative dimensions? What the hell 0D being no dimension, there cannot be anything under that. So, real/rationals-idexed dimensions?...

You can get the idea. Clearly those layers cannot be spatial dimensions

Nothing even says an upper layers contains the lower layers, like for dimensions. It could be that the layers are, well, like a tower, in a 4D space. That makes MUCH more sense
 
I will ask A6C about this thread, although with the whole infinite layers+infinite dimensions thing means that it's more than just infinite universes.
 
Ah, that's going to be a bit of a problem.

Also, do you know if the Youtube channel has all of the videos, or are some parts of the video removed?

Alternatively, is the VN mentally stimulating, or is it a quiet read?
 
Lina Shields said:
Ah, that's going to be a bit of a problem.
Also, do you know if the Youtube channel has all of the videos, or are some parts of the video removed?

Alternatively, is the VN mentally stimulating, or is it a quiet read?
Click to expand...
I'd say mentally stimulating. Its hard to understand essentially because you need to wait a long time before the game explains you what the hell happened, but if you complete the whole game you should have most of your questions answered

Route A and B are pretty "normal"

Route C and D are litteraly going back through time. Each scene happens before (in the time axis) the previous scene

Route E is the most interesting and is quite complex

Here's a good walkthrough: http://forums.fuwanovel.net/topic/4635-io/
 
I'm replaying it right now (the important part at least)

I'm making sure I didn't miss anything

Edit 1: In the scene mentioned in the screenshots, Hinata calls this situation the "Multilayered World Hypothesis" and compares it to the "Tri-sahasra-mahasahasra-dhatu" ( http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Tri-sahasra-mahasahasra-dhatu )

Edit 2:

"{HE}: For starters, what we experienced in the lower strata worlds were reiterations of what happened in our world. Like a mirror image. The reverse is true; the events of the lower strata worlds have also affected the upper strata worlds. Like how after a lower Mutsuki woke up, the upper Mutsuki woke up as well."

Ishtar: Another possibility is that the uppermost strata worlds is a supperposition of ambiguous states, and decisions set in the lower strata worlds propagate upward and get set there too..

{HE}: In any case, it's still uncertain as to why this sort of multilayer was born.


Ishtar: Furthermore, each and every layer is an exact replica of the same world, like they've been copied"
(LEM later says Ishtar she is wrong, and that each layer /seems/ the same but "the truth is not always as it seems with the naked eyes". There are unnoticeable differences. The layers are all slightly different, though still very close)

A bit later:

"Hinata: through quantum calculation, {Marduk} sees countless dreams in parrallel.
Which explains the multilayer structure.

"Mayumi: And at the time of the first eclipse, dreams and cyberspace overlapped."
To be short: Marduk have infinitely many dreams. At the eclipse, dreams and cyberspace overlapped, but later in the story cyberspace and reality overlapped too. Kinda making the infinite worlds "real".

Even later:

"Ea: Can you tell me the difference between dreams and reality? [...] Are you sure you are not misunderstanding where you are, where "here" is? If you do not understand, then there is no beginning, nor an end, is there? To run away from reality before your eyes and seek an imaginary reality. Is that not what the exact thing you are attempting? There was never a multilayered world structure to begin with. You have only the real world, diving, deeper and deeper into yourself. Like gazing into overlapping mirrors. [...] There is no possible way for 'infinity' to exist. If there is no end, how can you be standing still 'here'?"
LEM: Besides, in this multilayer world, you can't find the exact path without recursion
Hinata: Why not?

LEM: Because all of them are real.
Later it talks again of the multilayer structure as infinitely many very similar realities, but "superposed" like a quantum bit.

Basically, there is one "real" world with infinitely many superposed states, its "layers". Like in quantum mechanics

And that's all for route E. (previous routes didn't mention at all the infinite worlds) If you want to see the full context of these quotes you can use the youtube walkthrough. Its route E, near the end.

There's also the "prime" routes A' / B' / C' / D' / E'. I'll check them too and post here if I find something relevant.
 
Also, just because the Verse uses Quantum Mechanics doesn't mean they will be 100% faithful to the most accepted scientific theories and/or buddhist concepts they use.

Hilbert Space is also a theory.

Finally, a Verse doesn't need to be explict in using Dimensional of Space and Time in order to achieve 1-A. Infinite Higher and Lower Layers of Reality fits the bill just fine.

And "A world without a beginning" is just more evidence of 1-A, frankly. Looking at the evidence you provide, I don't see how the Infinite Dimensions are disproven.

And from what I've seen of DP, it's very explictly God. It even destroys every single character just by existing in a Bad Ending. Placing it at Tier 0 is no problem.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also, just because the Verse uses Quantum Mechanics doesn't mean they will be 100% faithful to the most accepted scientific theories and/or buddhist concepts they use.
Hilbert Space is also a theory.

Finally, a Verse doesn't need to be explict in using Dimensional of Space and Time in order to achieve 1-A. Infinite Higher and Lower Layers of Reality fits the bill just fine.

And "A world without a beginning" is just more evidence of 1-A, frankly. Looking at the evidence you provide, I don't see how the Infinite Dimensions are disproven.

And from what I've seen of DP, it's very explictly God. It even destroys every single character just by existing in a Bad Ending. Placing it at Tier 0 is no problem.
Click to expand...
He doesn't destroy anything... It actually comes to speak with Marduk and leave with her. And the stories CONTINUES after that, nobody is dead. Its actually the "good end" of route E. Nothing more happens due to DP.

And the scans aren't clear at all. Just read my quotes and tell me how a dimensional system fits that. During the routes they go through different layers. Its always 3D! Just play the VN!

I'm tired of people who trusts a few scans without caring about the 50 hours more of messages. Could you just play it? Its so obvious when playing route E correctly that this isn't a dimensional system.

Its explicitely stated that each layer is a close copy of the previous. 4D space is nowhere near a copy of the 3D space.
 
Look up at the profile. It shows that Bad End.

A Dimensional System can fit on top of anything, and the scans are quite clear. And of course it's always "3D", how else would the Visual Novel visibly represent things?

I actually did start playing I/O, and literally one of the first things I got was talk about layers / ladders that progress infinitely upwards and downwards.

And no need to get angry or agressive. I just don't believe you. It strikes me as clear.
 
I-o-70.png


Dimensions are the most explicit thing ever in I/O
 
Sorry for looking angry. I don't mean to be aggressive.

First, it isn't a Bad End. It is Route E/Lead Out - End. Its the normal end. And as I said, it continues after that. DP didn't destroy anything.


Second I don't see how each layer can be a close copy of the previous and be of a higher dimension. Second, this screenshot doesn't implies that this is a infinite dimensional system, it merely mentions 4D space. She's even saying they /are/ 3D, i.e. lower-dimensional, and can't access 4D space, and that same character says later that they currently are in the upper strata of the layers, so it can't be higher-dimensional.

Also its not that much interesting, but as I said the very end insists a lot about this hypothesis being almost the same as the "Tri-sahasra-mahasahasra-dhatu" ( http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Tri-sahasra-mahasahasra-dhatu ) which is about /parrallel/ worlds
 
Also the game talks without stop of this being the Many-Worlds Interpretation.

Check by yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretatio

I-o-141.png


and at MANY other moments. There are long talks about it. The multilayer structure is exactly that, quantum physics.


Also here is its keyword entry:
Capture-5
Clearly it says the multilayer structure is the M-W Interpretation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretatio

The author is using the MWI to justify his whole story. He's using quantum physics, like always. And the MWI from which this entire story is based does not consider any dimensions beyond 11D, the universes being all 3D+plank-length dimensions up to the 10D. The whole point of I/O is that its not "impossible" from a quantum physics point of view.
 
In that former scan the dimensions refer to Spatial Dimensions while in the one you linked they refer to Parallel Universes. Both are not excludent.

The game may talk about Many-Worlds Interpretation and Quantum Mechanics, but it does not deny that they talk about Infinite Dimensions being a thing. Look at the scans in the I/O page, it's quite explicit.

Just because a Verse uses the same word too mean two different things on two different moment, does not exclude one meaning from existing. Your argument centers around simply ignoring the clear evidence for Infinite Dimensions by insisting that they mean parallel universes on every single time, and that they can't be infinite because the Verse uses Quantum Mechanics, which is simply ridiculous as this is fiction and they can mix-match Hilbert Space, Quantum Mechanics, Buddhism and Babylonian Polytheism in any way they want.
 
You yourself linked that they use concepts from Buddhism, and if those are acceptable, just like the Real World - Virtual Information world duality that the series has, and Information Gods and other non-scientific things are acceptable, I don't see how Hilbert Space isn't.

Also, you claiming that all of String Theory only has 3D universes proves you don't know as much as you say you do.

Here is the scene in full.

You cannot get more explict about the existence of infinite Higher / Lower Spatial Dimensions than that. This isn't something you can just ignore.
 
It doesn't follow Buddhism, just do an analogy with its parrallel worlds structure.

Read again what I said. String theory has 3D verses with higher-dimensions applying *at planck lengths*. The 4-10D dimensions only exists in that realm. That's how it is in string theory.

Its not full at all, and I have read the complete scene, unlike you.

In this screenshot Ishtar does an *analogy* with 3D/4D (it sure says a lot about higher dimensions) and doesn't assert in any way that the realms are dimensions, just that lower layers and higher layers have this common point with higher/lower dimensions. "Common point" is not synonimous of "the same thing".

The thing is, I don't see what proves that it follows infinite dimensions. Its plausible, maybe "very likely" (or "possibly") but you can't conclude from those screenshots that its exactly that. Its interpreting too much

Edit: it says "that pertains the laws of physics", which in I/O are quantum physics
 
String Theory doesn't work like that. And it's not just an "Analogy". If you need to use the "metaphor" excuse to downplay a series, I'd say you are pushing.

They talk of infinite higher and lower worlds as an actual thing, and use dimesions to explain how they function, with them in a lower reality not being able to perceive / interact with a higher reality. It's an obvious thing. Even if the layers aren't exactly higher and lower dimensions, they function identically for the sake of our tiering.

I don't think we are interpreting too much. We are looking at the evidence at face-value and taking it for what it is. Infinite Higher and Lower Layers of Existence. Not every franchise define their cosmoloy with only Spatial Dimensions. That'd be dull. So if strange made-up names for Higher Existences show up, or talk of Lower and Higher Layers of reality happen, it's understandable, but it is essentially the same thing.
 
Fine, I give up on that. I suggest you should play the VN (its IMO a very good game so its not a waste of time in any case). To me playing the VN makes the world's structure very clear, but you might have a different experience.

About the DP, here is the full scene: It takes place in Mutsuki's/Marduk's dream. They accessed it by diving into Enigma. {HE}, LEM and Ishtar are in the infinite staircase (each stage representing a layer). Ishtar "open the true path". A light start covering the staircase/dream.

The lights released from Ishtar's hand simultaneously fly towards the spiral staircase's upper stratum and lower stratum.


The light's luminosity gradually amplifies as they push their way in search of the exit.

Lights call other lights, lights search other lights. It's almost like a person staring at themself...

They go down, down, down, or up, up, up.

Pushing their target wherever it may be.
The lights released by Ishtar eventually covers all space sufficiently close to the protagonists, so that they only see a "white cloud that coats of things in sight". Within the lights, no color remains, and progressively no sound can be heared, same for each other sense. Their own locations becomes ambiguous, and they ask themselves "where are they". Then, Hinata has a flashback (from route A, a scene with Sakuya) and Ishtar has also one (from route B, with Mayumi) When they become conscious again, they are unable to feel each other. They both scream, "I am right here! I'm me! No one else. I'm nobody's [shadow]!" They become conscious of each other's location again. They "feel" each other.

We must return to... all of them! [the worlds]
... LEM's voice resounds with a majestic air.

LEM: 'Yes, because all of them are real.'

[more flashbacks]


[they think again about all of these worlds being real, that all of their own selves in these worlds are all them, like reflections in an infinite amount of mirror.]

My Shadow (their cyber selves)... Another me... no, all of the me-s, including me.
Then, Marduk come, "despite having no physical form, [she has] a will overwhelming enough to end all discussion about its existence or non-existence."

Marduk: I'll never let you go!

This is truly astounding tenacity.

{She} has no intention of letting us go, no matter what.

And then- "Something" come, heralded by divine light, an air of abolute intimidation.

A majestic presence. A pressure somehow ressembling that of Marduk.

Marduk: 'You... ?'

{Marduk}'s voice gives rise to confusion. That "something" appears to be talking with {her} with soundless words.

Marduk 'You've been searching for me? Forever and ever and ever? From far into the future? I've searched too. I've searched for you too. So!..."

......

Before I ({HE}) realize it, both {Marduk} and that mystery being had disappeared into nowhere.

"Let's go back". Someone says this. "Let's go back to where everyone is. And to where you are."

I quietly nod.
HE wakes up in the infinite staircase, at the exit that the light found. Above the staircase, he can see the crimson moon. More stuff/thoughts, but not related to the "something".

They wake up from Enigma, in the 'real' world. He then wakes up Mutsuki from her dream. After that, its just, well, the "end". They explain what happened after Mutsuki's awakening, how things are "back to normal", etc.

This is Route E / Lead Out - End.
 
In regards to the Divine Presence, you mighty actually be right, but I am unsure. A6 claims he displays superiority when compared to Sakuya. I will wait for him to explain better.
 
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