Hope Williamson vs. Valev

[Jackythejack]

'Cause someone had to make it. Speed equalized. Fight takes place in a desert, they're about twenty meters apart. Speed is equal. 8-A forms

Hope Williamso:

Valev:

 

[Moritzva]

Jacky and I agreed that we'd both argue for our own characters and vote as we deem neccessary, even though Jacky is OP.

I'll wait for Jacky before arguing.

 

[Jackythejack]

I...don't know how to really start the argument. Kinda tired but eh.

I will start with saying that Hope is an expert shot and ain't too likely to miss. Even if she's self trained she can still easily quick shoot at the range without having to bother aiming much, and dodging the bullets would likely do little if she can manipulate them back to hit him.

 

[Moritzva]

That certainly will help, although Hope's soul manip is basically worth jack against Valev. As well, Valev is skilled himself, and will either return gunfire or make a good fight dodging and deflecting bullets. Time Manip. is really Valev's ace-in-the-hole, though.

 

[Smashtwig]

This absolute mad lad challenged the all powerful Valev. What a hero

 

[Jackythejack]

How likely is he to even go for that, though? Is it something he does right away? Like just...stop time?

Also if he himself tried to return gunfire odds are Hope can just take it in stride and direct his own bullets back into the gun.

 

[Moritzva]

Valev does it a lot, yes. It's his main technique in this form due to lacking clones, illusions, and other weapons.

 

[Jackythejack]

So he'd just...stop time as soon as the battle starts? Is that like an infinite thing or...?

 

[Moritzva]

It lasts for around 3 seconds on average. It can last close to 5 seconds if he expends the mana, but he usually keeps it less.

Here's my analysis:

AP/Dura: Very close, basically even. Valev slightly upscales, and overall the difference is very small. Kiri's Dura Reduction is still very important, though.

Speed: Equal, though Valev amps.

Range: Hope has the advantage in range. Valev's axes are his best ranged weapons that he spams, and they are far slower than actual homing bullets.

Versatility: Seems like the two of them are pretty similar. Hope has homing bullets, magic, and light attacks, while Valev has Kiri, time manip, and TIC flames. They both have Low-Mid regen, as well.

Valev starts likely with dodging gunfire and tossing a few blades. This results in him getting hit a few times by their homing/trajectory altering ability. After that, he'd likely use his Kiri to flat-out destroy the bullets with Kiri. This does help a lot if Hope doesn't start changing up her strategy.

Valev's flames can be countered by light manip/magic, while Hope's soul manip isn't getting anywhere, either.

After the first few seconds of battle and Valev learns about homing, he will certainly push forward into range and destroy bullets, and begin bombarding Hope with Kiri. Occasionally, he'll use Time Stop to catch her off-guard and hit her with several hits.

Jacky, how would Hope respond to the lightly homing Kiri attacks?

 

[Jackythejack]

I doubt it would be anything she's not used to, homing attacks. Depending on how they work they might be just shot out of the air. She certainly isn't above Doug something like that.

And if he really wants to keep it at a range game then Hope is more than happy to do so. She has the mana capable to heal herself from any rough attacks, as she's gonna realize using mana to fuel her attacks probably won't mean much because...soul stuff.

Basically she'd either be trying to shoot them out of the air or just dodge them (depends on how homing they actually are), and keeping up in the range game by keeping him just within her easy range of twenty meters. If she feels threatened still she'll back away even further, maybe try blinding him with light

 

[Moritzva]

I doubt it would be anything she's not used to, homing attacks. Depending on how they work they might be just shot out of the air. She certainly isn't above Doug something like that.
And if he really wants to keep it at a range game then Hope is more than happy to do so. She has the mana capable to heal herself from any rough attacks, as she's gonna realize using mana to fuel her attacks probably won't mean much because...soul stuff.

Basically she'd either be trying to shoot them out of the air or just dodge them (depends on how homing they actually are), and keeping up in the range game by keeping him just within her easy range of twenty meters. If she feels threatened still she'll back away even further, maybe try blinding him with light

He wouldn't keep it at a range. He'd move to get closer after realizing the nature of her attacks. He'd use amp to push her into an unfavorable position and take it into a melee/mid-ranged brawl, with him switching between Kiri and physical strikes.

 

[Smashtwig]

Well, depends if he can get into close range easily, depending on Amping versus Hope's range skill. Even if we underestimate Hope's long range options, I'm sure she'd have ways to keep things at a distance, or can recreate distance

 

[Jackythejack]

Hope likely has ways to recreate distance or to stop him from advancing. Her whole thing is that she doesn't want people to get close to her in a fight. She has a knife, but it's hardly useful and I forgot about it because she doesn't tend to use it.

Either way, she should have some ways to just stop his advance, like shooting him in the leg or blinding him and running off in just...a different direction.

 

[Moritzva]

Hope likely has ways to recreate distance or to stop him from advancing. Her whole thing is that she doesn't want people to get close to her in a fight. She has a knife, but it's hardly useful and I forgot about it because she doesn't tend to use it.

Either way, she should have some ways to just stop his advance, like shooting him in the leg or blinding him and running off in just...a different direction.

Valev's regen and skill makes reliably hitting him difficult after he learns to destroy the bullets instead of dodging them. As well, Anamnesis makes blinding a less-than-worthwhile tactic, since his eyes would recover quickly.

Valev wishes to get close, while Hope wishes to stay at a range. Valev has the tools to get into close range, though.

 

[Jackythejack]

I still stay that Hope has a better chance at getting him at a distance all the same, considering that she can still make the bullets difficult to hit all the same, and even if he's only blind for a little while, it's enough to do something in the meantime, like actually shoot him or just still create distance.

Just because it's difficult or wouldn't do too much doesn't mean that it's impossible or wouldn't do anything at all and not worth trying.

 

[Moritzva]

It's hard to say Hope can stay at a distance when Valev can speed amp very high, meaning Hope won't be able to stay away for too long, as he's inevitably faster than Hope.

As well, let's not discount Valev's Time Stop. Even if his speed amp isn't enough to get him within a few meters, Time Stop can certainly seal the deal. And once Valev is within range, there is next to no way Hope is getting away from his enslaught of attacks.

 

[Smashtwig]

That's still assuming that Hope instantly loses as soon as Valev is in close range, it's kinda discounting that Hope can never widen the distance at all

But time stop tho...

 

[Moritzva]

Hope doesn't instantly lose, but Valev will make it exceptionally hard for her to leave close range. And, if things stay in close range for too long, Valev undoubtably wins.

 

[DMUA]

Can Valev kill her for good?

Even if he like decapitates him in timestop, she'll just regen it off as she's incapped and get back up a few minutes after the fact.

 

[Moritzva]

Regen is only low-mid, same as Valev's. Valev's might be better, actually. Plus, Hope's seems to not work when passed out, and by extension, when dead. Worst comes to worst, he notices her regen and just flames the body.

 

[Smashtwig]

How is Valev's better exactly? Or is that just an assumption?

 

[DMUA]

Lighting her on fire (Assuming he isn't using consortum flames) just seems like something that would have her get up immediately

 

[Moritzva]

It's an assumption, based on Valev's being "Low-Mid, possibly Mid" to Hope's "Low-Mid". That, and Valev doesn't need to be conscious for it to work.

@DMUA With Consortium Flames, yes. She has the magic to counter them so they aren't his ace-in-the-hole during the battle (Although they are still useful), but once she's unconscious, she'll either stop regenerating or he'll toss some flames onto her.

 

[DMUA]

If he just plans on flaming the body, the mana in her body doing the regening in the first place would just null it, and they'd probably wake up with the influx of heat, especially with Hope being a light sleeper.

 

[Moritzva]

Consortium Flames emit no sleep. Also, it says on the profile that regen doesn't work when unconscious, although there may be a misunderstanding.

Really, once Hope is actually dead, what can she really do? Even if she regens, that's going to take way too long, and eventually Valev will just toss the body parts into various different portals and call it a day.

 

[DMUA]

That's Regen, resurrection is a different ordeal

That said if he's fine dealing with her after he immediately kills her via timestop, what exactly was her wincon?

 

[Jackythejack]

It doesn't sound like there's a wincon here to me now that I think about it. You're implying that there's not much that Hope can do at all before she's dead...I don't see many ways she can win if it's implied he kills her in time stop or otherwise.

 

[Moritzva]

Well of course she can't win if she's literally dead. But at the same time, there isn't an AP gap for him to literally one-shot her, either. Time Stop will help him deal damage and get closer, but she regens and he can't use it forever. Before she's dead, she can stay at a range and use her gunfire (I'm not sure how she uses her light manip, so I can't argue much about that).

 

[DMUA]

Comparable opponents can easily decapitate each other if they have a sharp object. Valev happens to have a lot of them.

 

[Moritzva]

Eh, I'm really doubtful Valev could one-shot right off the bat like that. As well, in all my history of RPing him, he usually doesn't go for a decapitating move, at least not until he's sure he's already won or if the enemy is fodder.

This should be fair, given the range and arena favors Hope.

Perhaps give Hope prior knowledge about Time Stop so she can try to play around it?

 

[DMUA]

I mean, generally any good shot should do it. Unless Valev decided to stab in only places that doesn't kill his opponent in a willing to kill circumstance, she should be dead off the bat

Then again, distance could play a role. The main problem is that Hope doesn't really make distance in combat. That could be chalked up to mechanics saying you have to spend a turn moving but she doesn't really aim for movement.

Is there any real reason Valev won't have the time to outright kill her while it's stopped?

 

[Moritzva]

If Hope doesn't make distance in combat, then yes, Valev should take this with relatively low-diff.

Really, Hope's Low-Mid is massively helpful in staying alive here. She can survive several cuts and slashes, since regardless of slashing damage or not, she has a likely small sliver of a dura. advantage and I still believe that with them near to equal in AP, Valev shouldn't and wouldn't be one-shotting.

 

[Jackythejack]

I mean...to be fair the only reason why Hope hasn't created distance in a fight is because of the mechanics on how the fighting system works, so...yeah.

also moving amounts to nothing in JoAT anyways

 

[Moritzva]

How would she fight if we discounted game mechanics?

 

[Moritzva]

Bump. I'll vote for Valev, as it is.

 

[ThePerpetual]

...okay,

= Low-Mid Regenerationn, at the expense of some of the energy: Valev's, while Possibly Mid, also seems to be described as taking a bit more than what I usually see in JoAT

= Various hax resists not relevant to this match-up in particular

= Hope having 735 Tons in AP/Dura to Valev's 643 Tons countered by the latter's generally more useful from what I can see Stat Amp

= Homing ranged attack clashing: Kiri better defensively with their broad blades making convenient shields, bullets better offensively since you know, they're faster probably/more designed to fly straight

V+ Consortium Flame seems generally more reliable than Light Control for landing hits

V+ Probably more skilled, if 20 years old versus probably not 2000 yet but still actually means anything here

V++ Can stop time. Even if it's limited here with most of this being a firefight, it can reliably close distance, for...

V++ Melee. Hope seems to be generally lacking in melee options and Valev's Kiri seem more melee applicable than her revolvers (inb4 Gun Fu happens), on top of being more of a melee specialist. Combined with Time Stops, there's nothing stopping him from just periodically closing the gap, taking a swing or two, and continuing from there.

V- Valev's a loose enough canon to get himself also potential trouble against a stronger-ish? sorta opponent

H+ To her credit, is physically stronger over extended periods, and at least discounting the skill/experience discrepancy could in theory out-wrestle or incap Valev in that way? Except she'd have to burn through all his mana first, so he couldn't just Time Stop.

H+ ...ranged combat? I mean, to an extent at least, tens of meters while some of Valev's have hundreds, but at least its more of her forte

H+ The whole "can survive hits that should kill someone for sure, until the soul's busted" thing does help, yes.

I see arguments for at least some things Hope has getting wins off, depending on the circumstances, sure- Light Manipulation into Blindness into Homing Bullet to hopefully the brain stem, maybe- but nearly anywhere she'd shoot could be undone by chronomancy-based Regen. But honestly with how easy it seems for Valev to just... Time Stop, over and over, and keep forcing the fight outside of Hope's mid-range comfort zone, I just don't know about that actually happening. And I really don't see Hope winning a fight in close range.

If she were smarter, I'd see a good argument for using the blindness windows to back off and set up tricks, or get good angles for shots, but as it stands she's effectively a novice chess player trying to beat the World's Greatest, first try (Average vs. Genius).

Which isn't even getting into that Soul Manip. Resist. Even if it isn't strictly regarding its destruction prior to being knocked out of its physical body, it might not be enough to stop Valev from just eating her soul upon the first "death". I don't really know how potent said hax is, exactly, or how quantifiable it can be here, but it feels at worth noting. So, yeah.

I'm hesitant to call it a stomp, since Hope can legitimately win, but... Ooph.

 

[Moritzva]

That analysis seems correct, although it is worth nothing that Valev's actual range options he uses in this key << Hope's ranged options, and Hope's battle intelligence is better than you say from what I've heard.

Still a vote, though?

 

[ThePerpetual]

I mean more general werewithal than strictly combat skill, yeah. If that's higher than what its lifted (Average person level), then, uh, that should probably be listed.

Actually, question: if Valev's only weapons are the Kiri, where's he getting the hundreds of meters from? Consortium Flame?

And, yes, Valev I think takes this with decently little hassle all things considered... this might be closer some time in the future, when I actually have more showings of Hope's that aren't a whole five sessions of the campaign to go on, but currently there's not that.

 

[Moritzva]

Wait, 8-A key. No, that's just specific guns and the likes (Use to use very potent/powerful sniper weapons).

Unlikely to be useful here since whipping out a sniper rifle isn't really an ideal strategy here.

 

[ThePerpetual]

So, it's functionally the same as Kiri being the main weapons he'd default to if allowed to.