Hollowfication multiplier crt

[ThitOneGuy]

While I won't disagree with the idea that the mask might have a greater multiplier than Bankai, I don't agree with saying that multiplier should be assumed to be 10x. From the original statement that gives the Bankai multipliers, the 5-10x multiplier is an average of itself. Meaning that Bankai's can give greater or lesser multipliers than that. Not to mention how Bankai in of themselves, as we all know, can amplify a variety of things and not just strictly stats.

The 10x is the minimum the mask would need to be to actually be "far greater than mere bankai" as that's the highest number we know bankai can be concretely. While higher is possible, 10x is the largest number we know is definitely possible, so hollowfication being "far greater than mere bankai" while only giving stat amps necessarily needs to amp stats better than stat amping bankai do, because otherwise it's just equal to bankai.

What makes Hollowfication superior could be a variety of things, one of them being that Hollowfication more clearly seems to always amp strength and speed no matter whose doing it. The fact that all Hollowfication does this might be one of the reasons that Tosen, whose Bankai nor Shikai seem to do anything to amplify his own stats considers it far greater. Not to mention that of the Visored's whose Bankai we've seen, none of theirs actually seem to give flat amps like their hollow mask hence that could also be the reason they tend to use just hollow mask over Bankai across the board.

Bankai that provide abilities like we many of them give, such as removing all senses, super poison, immense range, nearly perfect defense and omnidirectional offense, using any element you want, exploding whatever punch endlessly as long as you're knuckles are in contact, and Shunsui's bs, tend to be far stronger than just a stat amp, due to their versatility and how difficult they are to actually fight against. Hollowfication being "far greater" because they always give the stat amp and no hax as opposed to sometimes giving broken hax and sometimes amping stats doesn't track, that would just be them being equal to bankai in terms of effectiveness, which is not implied by the statement.

Generally, I think at best, 6x multiplier might be in order as the flat assumption across the board.

6x is well within what a bankai is capable of doing, while we see masks outright outperforming bankai and resurreccion in terms of amping stats along with being stated to be "far greater" and there being multiple characters who use it over bankai. 10x is the lowest for Tosen's statement, supported by the multiple instances of masks being shown>bankai/resurreccion, to be accurate.

Either it's at least 10x due to Tosen stating it to be far greater than bankai, being shown to give a better amp than bankai and things we know to be relative to bankai, and being used by characters instead of their bankai, or its unquantifiably above 5x because of the same reasons, except Tosen's statement is false.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Generally, I think at best, 6x multiplier might be in order as the flat assumption across the board.

Considering we currently accept Bankai as just a 5x, this is most sensible based on what is established on this site. Goes in line with what I mentioned earlier in thread.

 

[Luziifero]

Considering we currently accept Bankai as just a 5x, this is most sensible based on what is established on this site. Goes in line with what I mentioned earlier in thread.

idk arc when I hear "far greater" I don't think it refers to a single time greater than bankai

 

[Damage3245]

Hollowfication being "far greater" because they always give the stat amp and no hax as opposed to sometimes giving broken hax and sometimes amping stats doesn't track, that would just be them being equal to bankai in terms of effectiveness, which is not implied by the statement.

This is just an interpretation though.

That's why this statement is not clear-cut. because you're interpretating Tousen's statement to be referring to the stat-amping as the qualifier for what "greatness" is.

6x is well within what a bankai is capable of doing, while we see masks outright outperforming bankai and resurreccion in terms of amping stats along with being stated to be "far greater"

You know that outperforming specific Bankai does not mean outperforming all Bankai in general?

Let's suppose Komomura is a 10 to start with and his Bankai was a 5x multiplier which made him 50.

If Tousen was a 11 and his Hollowfication was 6x multiplier which made him 66, then of course his Hollowfication would outperform Komomura's Bankai without necessarily being superior to say Yamamato's Bankai which would thrash him by comparison.

Considering we currently accept Bankai as just a 5x, this is most sensible based on what is established on this site. Goes in line with what I mentioned earlier in thread.

I think I'd rather go with "At least 5x" without attributing a specific higher number to it, myself.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

idk arc when I hear "far greater" I don't think it refers to a single time greater than bankai

When I hear "far greater" I think unquantifiable if I'm going to be 100% with you. When someone says X is far greater than Y, the most you can concretely quantify about X is that it is vaguely above Y, but not by how much, hence the "at least Y" stuff. While I do think Kubo prolly intends for Hollowfication to be like a 10x amp across the board, that is still a generous interpretation, when "far greater" by itself is an unquantifiable statement. I'm saying DueDate's suggestion fits in line most with giving an unquantified statement a quantifiable upgrade based on our current status on wiki (i.e. based on our current acceptance that Bankai is 5x stats when it displays the ability to amp stats).

 

[Duedate8898]

The 10x is the minimum the mask would need to be to actually be "far greater than mere bankai" as that's the highest number we know bankai can be concretely. While higher is possible, 10x is the largest number we know is definitely possible, so hollowfication being "far greater than mere bankai" while only giving stat amps necessarily needs to amp stats better than stat amping bankai do, because otherwise it's just equal to bankai.

Not really. Far greater is a meaningless metric to determine what the multiplier for the power is. Not to mention, 10x isn't the highest metric a Bankai can concretely be. That's just the highest average we were provided and I think the statement by itself isn't really enough to just make the multiplier 10x. Just having it be greater than what we currently list our Bankai multipliers at works fine.

Bankai that provide abilities like we many of them give, such as removing all senses, super poison, immense range, nearly perfect defense and omnidirectional offense, using any element you want, exploding whatever punch endlessly as long as you're knuckles are in contact, and Shunsui's bs, tend to be far stronger than just a stat amp, due to their versatility and how difficult they are to actually fight against. Hollowfication being "far greater" because they always give the stat amp and no hax as opposed to sometimes giving broken hax and sometimes amping stats doesn't track, that would just be them being equal to bankai in terms of effectiveness, which is not implied by the statement.

To be honest, this is more just your conclusion than one the series itself gives. Being 10 times more powerful and faster doesn't really do anything to solve the problem you propose either. So I see no point in trying to use this as evidence that at 10 times stat increase is the way to go for Hollowfication.

6x is well within what a bankai is capable of doing, while we see masks outright outperforming bankai and resurreccion in terms of amping stats along with being stated to be "far greater" and there being multiple characters who use it over bankai. 10x is the lowest for Tosen's statement, supported by the multiple instances of masks being shown>bankai/resurreccion, to be accurate.

10x is also well within a bankai's capability. As I said, 5-10 is just the average multiplier, they can be far greater or lower. Not to mention looking at the instances you propose as support for this far greater multiplier, none of them are really concrete like that.

Ichigo and Grimmjow, for the most part have a balanced battle. Both are capable of damaging one another consistently throughout the fight, and neither manages to properly one-shot the other even till the end. A 10x multiplier is not at all supported by any of that fight, even with the fear Ichigo was feeling.

And again, the captains choosing mask over their bankai isn't really good support when we have no idea what most of their bankai's are. And of those we do know of, their bankai's don't even give an amp like their mask so there's no real direct line of comparison between the two in those cases.

 

[KingTempest]

The 10x is the minimum the mask would need to be to actually be "far greater than mere bankai" as that's the highest number we know bankai can be concretely. While higher is possible, 10x is the largest number we know is definitely possible, so hollowfication being "far greater than mere bankai" while only giving stat amps necessarily needs to amp stats better than stat amping bankai do, because otherwise it's just equal to bankai.

Bankai that provide abilities like we many of them give, such as removing all senses, super poison, immense range, nearly perfect defense and omnidirectional offense, using any element you want, exploding whatever punch endlessly as long as you're knuckles are in contact, and Shunsui's bs, tend to be far stronger than just a stat amp, due to their versatility and how difficult they are to actually fight against. Hollowfication being "far greater" because they always give the stat amp and no hax as opposed to sometimes giving broken hax and sometimes amping stats doesn't track, that would just be them being equal to bankai in terms of effectiveness, which is not implied by the statement.




6x is well within what a bankai is capable of doing, while we see masks outright outperforming bankai and resurreccion in terms of amping stats along with being stated to be "far greater" and there being multiple characters who use it over bankai. 10x is the lowest for Tosen's statement, supported by the multiple instances of masks being shown>bankai/resurreccion, to be accurate.

Either it's at least 10x due to Tosen stating it to be far greater than bankai, being shown to give a better amp than bankai and things we know to be relative to bankai, and being used by characters instead of their bankai, or its unquantifiably above 5x because of the same reasons, except Tosen's statement is false.

Far greater than Bankai =/= Far greater than the highest Bankai’s amp

 

[ThitOneGuy]

This is just an interpretation though.

That's why this statement is not clear-cut. because you're interpretating Tousen's statement to be referring to the stat-amping as the qualifier for what "greatness" is.

Considering that between the regen not being any better than what kaido can do and the ranged attack being outperformed by many zanpakuto's ranged attacks, the amp is the only thing that it could be referring to. Other bankai can outperform the regenerative capacity of the hollowfied character ls that demonstrate any regen, and ceros are just generic ranged attack, the amp is what's left to be considered "far greater than mere bankai"

You know that outperforming specific Bankai does not mean outperforming all Bankai in general?

Stated to be far greater than bankai, shown to surpass bankai every time the 2 are shown in a situation the can be compared in power, clearly Tosen only meant it gives a bigger amp than his own bankai.

Let's suppose Komomura is a 10 to start with and his Bankai was a 5x multiplier which made him 50.

If Tousen was a 11 and his Hollowfication was 6x multiplier which made him 66, then of course his Hollowfication would outperform Komomura's Bankai without necessarily being superior to say Yamamato's Bankai which would thrash him by comparison.

It being a 10x would still track equally well considering how Yama was a threat to Aizen who soloed the other captains present. It can give a bigger amp to stats than Yama's bankai without making Tosen throttle Yama. Hollowfication grants a larger stat amp than bankai, which can grant a 10x, thus hollowfication grants at least a 10x.

Hollowfication is always shown to be stronger than bankai when they can be compared, it's stated to be far greater, and the statement comes from someone who should know what bankai is generally capable of, so for it to be far greater as he claims, what it provides must surpass what bankai can provide in terms of what both give. We see zapakuto such as Minazuki and Kazeshini grant better regen than hollowfication, and we see zanpakuto like Zangetsu and Sennonzakura grant better projectiles, leaving only the stat amp, which is consistently shown to be higher than bankai and resurreccion by a significant margin, meaning it's a higher multiplier than any bankai in terms of straight stats.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Not really. Far greater is a meaningless metric to determine what the multiplier for the power is. Not to mention, 10x isn't the highest metric a Bankai can concretely be. That's just the highest average we were provided and I think the statement by itself isn't really enough to just make the multiplier 10x. Just having it be greater than what we currently list our Bankai multipliers at works fine.

10x is the highest number a bankai can be without hesdcanon.

To be honest, this is more just your conclusion than one the series itself gives. Being 10 times more powerful and faster doesn't really do anything to solve the problem you propose either. So I see no point in trying to use this as evidence that at 10 times stat increase is the way to go for Hollowfication.

Them being far more versatile is absolutely grounds for them to be greater. Hollowfication being greater necessitates the multiplier being above 10x.

10x is also well within a bankai's capability. As I said, 5-10 is just the average multiplier, they can be far greater or lower. Not to mention looking at the instances you propose as support for this far greater multiplier, none of them are really concrete like that.

I'm saying it should be above 10x, but 10x is the highest number given that doesn't require headcanon to reach. If you'd prefer I can try using what we're shown to calc the multiplier to be higher than 10x.

Ichigo and Grimmjow, for the most part have a balanced battle. Both are capable of damaging one another consistently throughout the fight, and neither manages to properly one-shot the other even till the end. A 10x multiplier is not at all supported by any of that fight, even with the fear Ichigo was feeling.

They both harm each other, while Ichigo is mentally nerfed, and mental state is massive, considering how pre-vizard training Ichigo had peaks above Ulquiorra during his fluctuations.

Desgarron is stated to be Grimmjow's best attack, meaning Desgarron>GRC>Cero Oscuras in terms of AP, which, if we go by databook statements is an order of magnitude, or 10x, stronger than a normal cero, so Ichigo's mask needed to be at least 10x stronger than base Grimmjow to completely overwhelm Desgarron, his best attack, which would need to be stronger than Gran Rey Cero, which is the strongest cero, which obviously includes CO. Can pull out the databook scan if you'd like.

And again, the captains choosing mask over their bankai isn't really good support when we have no idea what most of their bankai's are. And of those we do know of, their bankai's don't even give an amp like their mask so there's no real direct line of comparison between the two in those cases.

They choose mask over bankai, their masks bring them from certainly below Shunsui, who was around base Starrk level, to being only slightly behind res Starrk.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Far greater than Bankai =/= Far greater than the highest Bankai’s amp

Far greater than bankai implies far greater than all bankai.

 

[Kingcrim212]

Not really. Far greater is a meaningless metric to determine what the multiplier for the power is. Not to mention, 10x isn't the highest metric a Bankai can concretely be. That's just the highest average we were provided and I think the statement by itself isn't really enough to just make the multiplier 10x. Just having it be greater than what we currently list our Bankai multipliers at works fine.

To be honest, this is more just your conclusion than one the series itself gives. Being 10 times more powerful and faster doesn't really do anything to solve the problem you propose either. So I see no point in trying to use this as evidence that at 10 times stat increase is the way to go for Hollowfication.

10x is also well within a bankai's capability. As I said, 5-10 is just the average multiplier, they can be far greater or lower. Not to mention looking at the instances you propose as support for this far greater multiplier, none of them are really concrete like that.

Ichigo and Grimmjow, for the most part have a balanced battle. Both are capable of damaging one another consistently throughout the fight, and neither manages to properly one-shot the other even till the end. A 10x multiplier is not at all supported by any of that fight, even with the fear Ichigo was feeling.

And again, the captains choosing mask over their bankai isn't really good support when we have no idea what most of their bankai's are. And of those we do know of, their bankai's don't even give an amp like their mask so there's no real direct line of comparison between the two in those cases.

Actually. A 10 times for ichigo is supported. Gran ray cero iirc on site is treated as a 10x ap amp. Ichigo needed his hollowification to dispel it. Tousen who is a credible source that understands the power difference between bankai multiplicative amps and hollowification should be enough evidence as bankai multipliers in general are 5-10x so if hes stating with that in mind that its far GREATER than a bankai amp it should be fine to treat it as at least 10x.

 

[Damage3245]

Far greater than bankai implies far greater than all bankai.

I think you're taking a character's boasting a little too far.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Agree with Damage, Duedate and Arc

 

[BleachHollow]

Well, as far as I have seen the people who do most CRTs about Bleach like Arc follow a line. What I mean is Arc said he will revision the multiplayers.
So it's better if you wish to talk to him about the multiplayer revisions. We can have one single thread which will combine everything about the multiplayers of bankai hollowfication etc. Not saying I disagree ( because I agree, and the multiplayers of Bleach play a big role and now they are pretty barebone ) it's just better to wait and have a proper thread with multiple sources and scans. ( Because sometimes it's pretty hard for Bleach revisions to go through )

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeesh that makes it sound like I’m gatekeeping revisions. Obviously make your CRTs whenever/however you want (I’m not gonna do sumn like request you wait for me to cover a topic), but also feel free to reach out to me cuz I plan on doing a comprehensive rehaul of all multipliers.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

I think you're taking a character's boasting a little too far.

If I said "motorcycles are far more agile than trucks" would the right interpretation be that only my motorcycle is a little more agile than semi trucks? Or that some motorcycles are more agile than some trucks? Or is the speaker meaning that all motorcycles are more agile than all trucks?

How about if I said "cats are a far greater pet than dogs" am I referring to specifically tabby cats being better than great danes? Or am I saying all cats are better pets than all dogs?

Tosen refers to the whole group, not any subsets. The raw Japanese also doesn't make any mention of any subsets. Tosen is referring to bankai as a group, if you refer to a group without specifying that you mean a small subset of them, you are referring to all of them.

 

[Luziifero]

bump

 

[Kingcrim212]

Bump

 

[Luziifero]

bump

 

[Luziifero]

bump

 

[Luziifero]

bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

Damage is busy and Arc is also
So no need to bump let’s just wait for them

 

[ThitOneGuy]

I've found some more shtuff related to this, but I think it'll probably be best to close this thread and merge my stuff with what Arc's planning

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I appreciate it better to slam our two heads together when the time comes anyway.