Hollowfication multiplier crt

[ThitOneGuy]

So this is my first thread on the site, so forgive me if the formatting is bad.

Basically Hollowfication is stated to be "a power far greater than mere bankai" by Kaname Tosen, and he says this prior to going lowkey insane due to his resurreccion.



Tosen is likely not referring to hollowfication+resurreccion being greater than bankai, because he says he'll face off against Komamura with his "true power" before using his mask, and doesn't use his resurreccion until his argument with Komamura about justice, and he's very clearly never used it prior to that moment, as if he had he wouldn't have reacted the way he did to sight.



He starts shouting about how he can see, obviously seeing the sky for the first time, something he could've seen in Las Noches had he ever used it there.

Tosen's claim should only apply to hollowfication itself, and not his resurreccion as he clearly had no experience with what power his resurreccion actually has, and refers to hollowfication as his true power.

Basically, I'm proposing that hollowfication should be at least a 10x multiplier, since Tosen would clearly know that bankai can reach that level, and still claims hollowfication is far greater, and hollowfication is used by the Vizards who used to be captains over their bankai in FKT, Kensei aside.

Love and Rose both use their masks against Starrk, not their bankai, despite both being former captains who have access to bankai.



Kensei uses bankai against Wonderweiss after Mashiro's mask drops, but considering how sparingly every other Vizard uses their mask due to their strict time limits and stamina consumption, Mashiro aside, this can be easily argued to be Kensei not thinking he needs to use the more draining ability, plus Kensei is the only Vizard who loses to an Arrancar, while also being the only one who doesn't use his mask.

In all, the hollow mask is stated to be a power greater than bankai, and characters with both are shown to use the hollow mask over bankai against tough opponents, while avoiding it against weak ones due to the strain it puts on them.

Hollowfication is clearly built to be a more powerful, less stable ability than bankai. Plus, unlike bankai, it always gives a boost to physicals along with some hollow abilities.

Adding on to this, against Grimmjow, bankai Ichigo is relative to base Grimmjow, while masked Ichigo with a mental nerf from Orihime's fear of him is able to dodge and catch multiple attacks from resurreccion Grimmjow and just tank others with little to no lasting damage.



Then, after taking 5 massive hits and getting ragdolled for a while, sustaining serious injuries, Ichigo once again catches Grimmjow's attack after Orihime calls out to him, showing she's not scared of him.



This Ichigo is heavily fatigued, heavily wounded, moreso than Grimmjow, and he still does this. Then, after taking some more hits, Ichigo blatantly overpowers Grimmjow's ultimate technique twice.

https://imgur.com/a/E6g3MN0

If Resurreccion is relative to bankai, than hollowfication should be a greater multiplier because of fatigued, injured Ichigo being able to overpower Grimmjow's ultimate technique without using Getsuga, Ichigo's own AP boosting ability, so masked Ichigo has higher base AP than Grimmjow's ultimate technique and is able to catch multiple of Grimmjow's blows, while Grimmjow only manages to block Ichigo's attacks twice throughout the entire fight between Masked Ichigo and Res Grimmjow.

https://imgur.com/a/z8uBVB2

Grimmjow blocks as many attacks as Ichigo caught barehanded. If that doesn't demonstrate a difference is power, I don't know what does. Ichigo has the upper hand while mentally nerfed until he literally tanked 5 hits from Grimmjow that Grimmjow was shocked he could fight after taking, while Ichigo's regular attacks brought Grimmjow to similar levels of injury.

Then Ichigo gets ragdolled because on top of being wounded, he's worried about how Orihime is afraid of him, giving him further mental nerfs. Then an Ichigo who was eating attacks from Grimmjow while barely answering back catches his strike again and overpowers Grimmjow's ultimate.

All of this fight shows hollowfication to be a power greater than resurreccion, which is accepted to be relative to bankai, which this stacked onto Tosen claiming it to be greater than bankai and also the Vizards using it over bankai in FKT indicate that it's more powerful. Thus, since Bankai is a 5-10x amp, with hollowfication being consistently greater than it, hollowfication should be at a minimum a 10x amp.

Once again, I apologize if the formatting was bad, also sorry if I rambled excessively or repeated myself too much. Still new to this site.

 

[speedster352]

Seems fine

 

[Rebirth]

seems good after a quick skim through. Will provide some input later

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Poorly timed a lot of Bankai multipliers are about to get changed/potentially axed.

 

[skippy]

It also says that the Mask Drasctically increases their combat abilities

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Also considering we only accept Bankai as a 5x amp for where it’s applicable, Hollow Mask’s would only be at least 5x, which is how we currently rate them.

 

[skippy]

Also considering we only accept Bankai as a 5x amp for where it’s applicable, Hollow Mask’s would only be at least 5x, which is how we currently rate them.

Pretty sure on the Bleach multiplier crt it was agreed that Espada Ress gives 5x too
And Vollstandig 5-7.5x

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Pretty sure on the Bleach multiplier crt it was agreed that Espada Ress gives 5x too
And Vollstandig 5-7.5x

Nope. 5x is what’s accepted

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Also considering we only accept Bankai as a 5x amp for where it’s applicable, Hollow Mask’s would only be at least 5x, which is how we currently rate them.

Bankai is stated to be a 5-10x, with hollowfication being stated to be and shown to be stronger than bankai as a whole. If it was just one character's bankai specifically I'd agree with this, but it's a general hollowfication>bankai, meaning hollowfication is above all bankai, including the 10x ones that exist due to the lore, even if we only use 5x for scaling

 

[SirAlex09]

Agree

 

[Damage3245]

Tosen's Bankai doesn't even multiply his stats, so of course his Hollowfication would be greater than a "mere Bankai" without needing to be "At least 10x" multiplier.

 

[SirAlex09]

Tosen's Bankai doesn't even multiply his stats

It boosts his spiritual pressure, Reiyorku and everything else by extension

 

[Damage3245]

It boosts his spiritual pressure, Reiyorku and everything else by extension

Which isn't a direct multiplier of his stats.


I'd rather wait on this to see what Arc7 has planned for his upcoming multipliers revision.

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Tosen's Bankai doesn't even multiply his stats, so of course his Hollowfication would be greater than a "mere Bankai" without needing to be "At least 10x" multiplier.

It's also used over bankai by the Vizards and is shown to be stronger than resurreccion, as I said and showed in the OP. All of what I showed together points toward the conclusion that hollowfication is greater in terms of stat amp than any bankai, including ones that give 10x which are stated to exist

 

[Damage3245]

It's also used over bankai by the Vizards and is shown to be stronger than resurreccion, as I said and showed in the OP. All of what I showed together points toward the conclusion that hollowfication is greater in terms of stat amp than any bankai, including ones that give 10x which are stated to exist

Their Bankai may not be as useful to them in those fights than just their Hollowfication.

That doesn't make Hollowfication an over 10x multiplier.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Their Bankai may not be as useful to them in those fights than just their Hollowfication.

That doesn't make Hollowfication an over 10x multiplier.

Tosen: hollowfication is far greater than bankai

Multiple characters with both: use their mask over their bankai against an opponent who should be relative to them or stronger than them

Ichigo's mask: clearly significantly stronger than Grimmjiw's resurreccion, something accepted to be relative to bankai

You: hollowfication isn't stronger than bankai

 

[Damage3245]

Tosen: hollowfication is far greater than bankai

Multiple characters with both: use their mask over their bankai against an opponent who should be relative to them or stronger than them

Ichigo's mask: clearly significantly stronger than Grimmjiw's resurreccion, something accepted to be relative to bankai

You: hollowfication isn't stronger than bankai

Hollowfication could be more useful than Bankai. That doesn't make it just a higher stat multiplier than the highest stat-multiplying Bankai.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Hollowfication could be more useful than Bankai. That doesn't make it just a higher stat multiplier than the highest stat-multiplying Bankai.

Tosen states that it is a power far greater than bankai, with other translations of the scene being "far more incredible" and "far stronger" he is clearly referring to power, as power is the only thing hollowfication has.

Tosen's bankai strips all senses from the opponent, far more useful than a stat amp with regen and a ranged attack.

Hollowfication is shown to be a stat amp significantly higher than something accepted to be relative to bankai, and other characters use it over bankai to match up against strong opponents, and Love's zanpakuto is very clearly a stat amping one, as it has no abilities other than being big and strong. The power is consistently shown to be above bankai, and it's less versatile than hax-based bankai, yet Tosen still claims it to be far greater.

A stat amping ability being stated far greater than another stat amp and shown to give higher boosts should, by all rights, mean that it's a larger amp. Thus hollowfication is stronger than bankai, meaning at least 10x

 

[Damage3245]

I can't agree to that. Bankai by itself is not a purely stat multiplying ability and it isn't stated anywhere that Hollowfication boosts stats greater than all Bankai. Hollowfication being a "greater power than Bankai" =/= "Hollowfication boosts all stats better than any Bankai".

Since there is an upcoming multiplier revision in the works, I suggest we table this until then.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

I can't agree to that. Bankai by itself is not a purely stat multiplying ability and it isn't stated anywhere that Hollowfication boosts stats greater than all Bankai. Hollowfication being a "greater power than Bankai" =/= "Hollowfication boosts all stats better than any Bankai".

Since there is an upcoming multiplier revision in the works, I suggest we table this until then.

It's not just greater than bankai, it's far greater than bankai as an ability that only amps stats and gives extremely minor abilities that are easy enough to reproduce via kido. Regen can be done better by Kaido, and Ceros can be replaced with Hado. Hollowfication has next to no versatility at all, it is purely a stat amp, one stated to be far greater than bankai at that.

Characters use it over bankai, it's shown to be stronger than another ability that purely amps stats and is relative to bankai. Hollowfication is consistently shown to be stronger than bankai, despite bankai being more versatile and also having pure stat amps. If hollowfication doesn't give an amp above 10x, it's not greater than bankai, as there would be bankai that do the same thing it does only better and there would be bankai more versatile. For hollowfication to be "far greater than mere bankai" the one thing it does needs to surpass what bankai is capable of.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

just want to clarify something bout that moment of ichigo:

ichigo on that fight was having some of his emotional problems due to orihime being scared of him, so he was not all in that

and as we know, emotions have a great impact on the power of characters on bleach, which is why when orihime screams at ichigo he gets stronger as the issue of her being scared is solved

 

[KingTempest]

It's not just greater than bankai, it's far greater than bankai as an ability that only amps stats and gives extremely minor abilities that are easy enough to reproduce via kido. Regen can be done better by Kaido, and Ceros can be replaced with Hado. Hollowfication has next to no versatility at all, it is purely a stat amp, one stated to be far greater than bankai at that.

Characters use it over bankai, it's shown to be stronger than another ability that purely amps stats and is relative to bankai. Hollowfication is consistently shown to be stronger than bankai, despite bankai being more versatile and also having pure stat amps. If hollowfication doesn't give an amp above 10x, it's not greater than bankai, as there would be bankai that do the same thing it does only better and there would be bankai more versatile. For hollowfication to be "far greater than mere bankai" the one thing it does needs to surpass what bankai is capable of.

Just saying it’s a big amp doesn’t justify or assist the justification of a 10x. This is all I’m hearing.

Guy: 10x amp for combat ability so 10x for stats
Dama: It’s never stated to be stats
Guy: It’s a BIG AMP

Count me as disagree + wait for Arc

 

[Rebirth]

Which isn't a direct multiplier of his stats.


I'd rather wait on this to see what Arc7 has planned for his upcoming multipliers revision.

Yh I may have to agree to wait tbh

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Just saying it’s a big amp doesn’t justify or assist the justification of a 10x. This is all I’m hearing.

Guy: 10x amp for combat ability so 10x for stats
Dama: It’s never stated to be stats
Guy: It’s a BIG AMP

Count me as disagree + wait for Arc

Hollowfication is only ever shown to amp stats, and is stated far greater than bankai, with characters using it over bankai and it being shown to be significantly stronger than an ability shown to be relative to bankai.

Everything points to hollowfication being stronger than bankai, with there being bankai that just amp stats, so for the statement as worded to be consistent with what's shown, it must necessarily grant a stat amp higher than any bankai, as stats are all it offers.

Statement of it being far greater+characters with both using it over bankai+it being shown to be significantly stronger than something known to be relative to bankai=hollowfication>all bankai in terms of power, the one thing it provides.

Would appreciate if you or damage would show something in the manga that actually contradicts any of this, because atm my argument is based off multiple instances that point to the conclusion I'm claiming, while Damage's argument seems to be basically "maybe he meant hollowfication is more versatile, or maybe he only meant his own bankai, or maybe he didn't mean all bankai" which isn't supported by the manga.

He doesn't say "far greater than my bankai" or "far greater than some bankai" he says "far greater than mere bankai" as in all bankai.

 

[Damage3245]

Hollowfication is only ever shown to amp stats, and is stated far greater than bankai, with characters using it over bankai and it being shown to be significantly stronger than an ability shown to be relative to bankai.

Hollowfication doesn't just grant stats, it grants access to Hollow abilities as well.

Everything points to hollowfication being stronger than bankai, with there being bankai that just amp stats, so for the statement as worded to be consistent with what's shown, it must necessarily grant a stat amp higher than any bankai, as stats are all it offers.

That's assuming Tousen everything about every Bankai out there, it seems. How does he know that Hollowfication is superior to all Bankai?

Statement of it being far greater+characters with both using it over bankai+it being shown to be significantly stronger than something known to be relative to bankai=hollowfication>all bankai in terms of power, the one thing it provides.

Characters using it over Bankai is not evidence. Do you know how common the trope is of characters forgetting about their powers? If we assumed that characters were performing the most optimal move at all times, they'd be always using Hollowfication and Bankai at the same time, but they consistently don't.

Would appreciate if you or damage would show something in the manga that actually contradicts any of this, because atm my argument is based off multiple instances that point to the conclusion I'm claiming, while Damage's argument seems to be basically "maybe he meant hollowfication is more versatile, or maybe he only meant his own bankai, or maybe he didn't mean all bankai" which isn't supported by the manga.

We're just going off our interpretations of Tousen's statement here and I think your interpretation is overly generous.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Hollowfication doesn't just grant stats, it grants access to Hollow abilities as well.

It doesn't consistently grant them though, Ichigo and Tosen aren't shown to be able to fire ceros with their masks, nobody other than Tosen and Ichigo are shown to have any regen, and nobody is shown to have Hierro. It sometimes grants you a ranged attack and very rarely grants you regen. Both abilities are replicated by various bankai.

That's assuming Tousen everything about every Bankai out there, it seems. How does he know that Hollowfication is superior to all Bankai?

It's assuming he knows they generally grant a 5-10x amp, and that some only grant an amp. Assuming the man who's been a captain for over a decade knows the very basics of what a bankai is shouldn't be something that gets doubted. For him to not be actually braindead and still make that claim implies he meant hollowfication grants more power than bankai, knowing the amp a bankai can give, and knowing some only amp stats, meaning hollowfication grants a greater stat amp than any bankai.

Characters using it over Bankai is not evidence. Do you know how common the trope is of characters forgetting about their powers? If we assumed that characters were performing the most optimal move at all times, they'd be always using Hollowfication and Bankai at the same time, but they consistently don't.

Not alone, no. But paired with a statement for hollowfication>bankai and a fight scene showing hollowfication>resurreccion, and it's solid supporting evidence.

We're just going off our interpretations of Tousen's statement here and I think your interpretation is overly generous.

Your interpretations are legitimately not at all in line with anything in the story. Nowhere does he say anything that implies he's only referring to Suzumushi, nowhere does he say anything that implies he meant the stat amp that sometimes gives you a ranged attack is more versatile than the ridiculous shit many bankai can do, and nowhere does he say he only meant some bankai. Tosen claims hollowfication>bankai, multiple character use hollowfication over bankai, and it's shown to grant an amp significantly larger than something we know is relative to bankai.

Keep in mind than bankai Ichigo needed his mask to block base Grimmjow's GRC, yet masked Ichigo didn't need to use any technique to completely break through Desgarron, which is claimed to be stronger than GRC. Hollowfication is shown to be stronger than resurreccion, which is stated and shown to be relative to bankai, is stated to be far greater than bankai, and is used over bankai multiple times by extremely skilled fighters.

My interpretation of Tosen's statement is backed up by other scenes, yours is backed only by you claiming it.

 

[Damage3245]

It doesn't consistently grant them though, Ichigo and Tosen aren't shown to be able to fire ceros with their masks, nobody other than Tosen and Ichigo are shown to have any regen, and nobody is shown to have Hierro. It sometimes grants you a ranged attack and very rarely grants you regen. Both abilities are replicated by various bankai.

Ichigo not making full use of his abilities? There's a shocker.

But the point remains that it is not a pure stat multiplier.

It's assuming he knows they generally grant a 5-10x amp, and that some only grant an amp. Assuming the man who's been a captain for over a decade knows the very basics of what a bankai is shouldn't be something that gets doubted. For him to not be actually braindead and still make that claim implies he meant hollowfication grants more power than bankai, knowing the amp a bankai can give, and knowing some only amp stats, meaning hollowfication grants a greater stat amp than any bankai.

Doesn't the fact that Hollowfication consistantly provides a stat increase in the first place and Bankai does not automatically make Hollofication a "greater power" than Bankai, without needing to surpass each and every Bankai?

Not alone, no. But paired with a statement for hollowfication>bankai and a fight scene showing hollowfication>resurreccion, and it's solid supporting evidence.

It doesn't seem that way to me, sorry.

My interpretation of Tosen's statement is backed up by other scenes, yours is backed only by you claiming it.

You do realize it is very difficult to prove a negative? It's not like there are stat-measuring devices in verse that we can point to for proof that there aren't 10x multipliers everywhere.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Ichigo not making full use of his abilities? There's a shocker.

But the point remains that it is not a pure stat multiplier.

Ichigo isn't shown to have a cero, Tosen is only shown to have a cero in his resurreccion, none of the Vizards are shown to have any regen. The extra stuff it grants aside from stats are extremely inconsistent and depends on the character, while also being things multiple bankai provide, and provide better versions of.

Doesn't the fact that Hollowfication consistantly provides a stat increase in the first place and Bankai does not automatically make Hollofication a "greater power" than Bankai, without needing to surpass each and every Bankai?

It wouldn't be a greater power than bankai, it would be a greater power than the average bankai going by that interpretation. Tosen clearly knows the basics of bankai, and still claims what he does, implying that it gives a better amp than any bankai in terms of stats.

It doesn't seem that way to me, sorry.

It's stated>bankai, it's shown>bankai, and characters use it over bankai multiple times. These combine together to form my point. Saying "this one point alone doesn't prove your whole claim" is a garbage argument to be frank.

You do realize it is very difficult to prove a negative? It's not like there are stat-measuring devices in verse that we can point to for proof that there aren't 10x multipliers everywhere.

I'm asking you to provide anything supporting your interpretations. I'm not asking you to prove mine wrong, I'm asking you to show anything in the manga that supports your interpretations of the statement. I've shown the supporting scenes for mine, and explained why they support me. Now show something that supports you.

 

[Damage3245]

Ichigo isn't shown to have a cero, Tosen is only shown to have a cero in his resurreccion, none of the Vizards are shown to have any regen. The extra stuff it grants aside from stats are extremely inconsistent and depends on the character, while also being things multiple bankai provide, and provide better versions of.

So you admit that Hollowfication can vary a great deal between characters, but you think Hollowfication consistantly grants the same stat boost to all users of Hollowfication?

Why can't it just be Tousen's Hollowfication that is "greater than a mere Bankai"? That seems like an equally valid interpretation even if we went with your way of it.

It wouldn't be a greater power than bankai, it would be a greater power than the average bankai going by that interpretation. Tosen clearly knows the basics of bankai, and still claims what he does, implying that it gives a better amp than any bankai in terms of stats.

I don't think he says that. Fair enough if you think he does.

EDIT: I don't really have anything else to say for now. I'll wait to see Arc7's upcoming revision.

 

[Jibz]

Disagree fra

 

[ThitOneGuy]

So you admit that Hollowfication can vary a great deal between characters, but you think Hollowfication consistantly grants the same stat boost to all users of Hollowfication?

It probably doesn't grant the same multiplier to everyone, but we have multiple pieces of evidence coming from multiple characters that all points to the same conclusion of mask>bankai

Why can't it just be Tousen's Hollowfication that is "greater than a mere Bankai"? That seems like an equally valid interpretation even if we went with your way of it.

Because it's Tosen's statement+Ichigo's mask being shown to be above resurreccion which is relative bankai+multiple other characters using their masks over their bankai when fighting a strong opponent. Multiple pieces of evidence from multiple characters that all point to the same conclusion should absolutely not only apply to Tosen.

I don't think he says that. Fair enough if you think he does.

He's been a captain for over a decade, for him to not know the basics of Soul Reaper lore is a claim that absolutely needs evidence. He claims that hollowfication>bankai. There is no reason to doubt that he knows the most basic lore, this when he says hollowfication is "a power far greater than mere bankai" he is claiming that knowing there are bankai that give a 10x boost to stats, meaning hollowfication must be above a 10x amp if his claim is true, which the other evidence I brought up in the OP supports.

Damage please back up your interpretation with literally any scans or evidence.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage please back up your interpretation with literally any scans or evidence.

You're the one making the proposal so the burden of proof is on you, I have to say. You've submitted your evidences and I thank you for it, but my assessment is that I'm not convinced that your interpretation is the sole correction option or the most likely to be correct.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

also have in mind that ichigo not having hollow abilities when he used the mask can be attributed to old man sealing his powers, as we see when he has them all an enters resurrection (HOS) he can use them

 

[ThitOneGuy]

You're the one making the proposal so the burden of proof is on your, I have to say. You've submitted your evidences and I thank you for it, but my assessment is that I'm not convinced that your interpretation is the sole correction option or the most likely to be correct.

None of the other interpretations you've brought up have anything backing them. In fact all other interpretations you brought up for the statement are contradicted by the scans I've already provided.

Tosen isn't referring only to his bankai, as he doesn't say it's greater than his bankai.

Tosen isn't only referring to some bankai, as he only refers to bankai as a group, which encompasses all bankai.

Tosen isn't saying it's stronger than the average bankai, for the same reasons as the 2nd one.

Tosen's statement doesn't only apply to him because multiple characters show that they rely on their mask over their bankai and Ichigo shows that his mask surpasses resurreccion and by extension bankai.

Tosen isn't someone with no knowledge on the lore of Soul Reapers, and claiming he is would require evidence.

Your interpretations aren't consistent in any way, shape, or form, have nothing supporting them, and are outright contradicted by the series. My interpretation has multiple pieces of evidence supporting it. Show anything supporting your interpretations, because mine is supported by what I've already shown.

Simply claiming it to be wrong because you can think of other interpretations that don't hold any water shouldn't be enough. I'm not asking you for extensive proof, just literally ANY evidence for any of your claims.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

ThitOneGuy is right about about this ^

Sadly, I have no comment because I remain unsure of how the multipliers may change.

 

[Damage3245]

Tosen isn't referring only to his bankai, as he doesn't say it's greater than his bankai.

His statement is in response to Komamura talking about about both of their Bankai. To me, it looks like he could just be saying that his "true power" which is his Hollowfication is greater than his Bankai.

Tosen isn't only referring to some bankai, as he only refers to bankai as a group, which encompasses all bankai.
Tosen isn't saying it's stronger than the average bankai, for the same reasons as the 2nd one.

That doesn't mean he is referring to just stat-multiplying Bankai as you seem to be interpreting from that.

Tosen's statement doesn't only apply to him because multiple characters show that they rely on their mask over their bankai and Ichigo shows that his mask surpasses resurreccion and by extension bankai.

Again, I can't provide scans for this because this is just an interpretation thing. A character relying on their Mask instead of their Bankai does not prove that their Mask > their Bankai in all respects.

Masked Bankai Ichigo beating Resurrecion Grimmjow doesn't prove anything for all Hollowfication either.

Tosen isn't someone with no knowledge on the lore of Soul Reapers, and claiming he is would require evidence.

Didn't say he had no knowledge. I'm saying there isn't enough evidence that he's intimately familiar with everybody's Bankai. Some of the characters haven't even seen each others Bankai in ages within the 13 Court Guards.

Your interpretations aren't consistent in any way, shape, or form, have nothing supporting them, and are outright contradicted by the series. My interpretation has multiple pieces of evidence supporting it. Show anything supporting your interpretations, because mine is supported by what I've already shown.

You can think that. I disagree.

Simply claiming it to be wrong because you can think of other interpretations that don't hold any water shouldn't be enough. I'm not asking you for extensive proof, just literally ANY evidence for any of your claims.

Your claims are "Tousen says that his Hollowfication is greater than mere Bankai, so what he really means is that specifically the stat-multiplying attribute of all Hollowfication in general is superior to the best possible stat-multiplication granted by any Bankai."

Sorry if I think that claim is not sufficiently supported by the evidence you've presented but it is an exceedingly generous interpretation for the transparent sake of some upgrades for characters. Multipliers have standards on the wiki and for an upgrade to multipliers for all of these characters you'll need more than a non-specific statement from Tousan and some characters opting to make use of their Hollowfication instead of their Bankai.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Following.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

His statement is in response to Komamura talking about about both of their Bankai. To me, it looks like he could just be saying that his "true power" which is his Hollowfication is greater than his Bankai.

Komamura wants to fight bankai against bankai, to which Tosen claims hollowfication is greater than bankai, he doesn't say greater than his bankai, and throughout that fight Tosen is shown to be stronger and faster than bankai Komamura, despite being portrayed as being at a similar level to Komamura in the Soul Society arc when Kenpachi rolled Tosen and then Komamura was able to block Kenpachi's attack and push him back. Masked Tosen completely overwhelms Bankai Komamura, then obliterates him in resurreccion. So hollowfication is shown above bankai yet again.

That doesn't mean he is referring to just stat-multiplying Bankai as you seem to be interpreting from that.

I didn't say he's only referring to stat boosting bankai. I said that in order for hollowfication to be far greater than bankai, the stat boost it gives, which is the main thing it does, cannot be surpassed by any bankai. Thus hollowfication must give above a 10x amp, as there are bankai that do that.

Again, I can't provide scans for this because this is just an interpretation thing. A character relying on their Mask instead of their Bankai does not prove that their Mask > their Bankai in all respects.

Alone I'd agree, but this isn't the main support, and is supported by both other points. A character relying on a power stated and shown to be greater than another instead of relying on the one stated and shown to be inferior is absolutely support.

Masked Bankai Ichigo beating Resurrecion Grimmjow doesn't prove anything for all Hollowfication either.

Ichigo blatantly outperforms Grimmjow despite the mental nerfs he has going on, and getting seriously wounded. Ichigo catches multiple of Grimmjow's blows, while Grimmjow only blocks at all twice, Ichigo's few normal attacks deal as much damage to Grimmjow as Grimmjow's many normal attacks and his stronger projectiles he's surprised Ichigo took, and when Ichigo is no longer mentally nerfed he deals with Grimmjow easily.

Base to base they were relative, and Ichigo needed the mask to stop the GRC, yet masked Ichigo didn't even need Getsuga to completely overwhelm Desgarron, Grimmjow's ultimate technique which is stated in Masked to be Grimmjow's best attack, GRC is also one of Grimmjow's attacks, thus the scaling chain would go like this:

bankai Ichigo~base Grimmjow<base Grimmjow's GRC<Resurreccion Grimmjow(base x5)<res Grimmjow's theoretical GRC<res Grimmjow's Desgarron<fatigued heavily wounded masked Ichigo<fresh masked Ichigo

Masked Ichigo jumps from being relative to base Grimmjow to overwhelming his strongest attack while gassed and wounded.

Didn't say he had no knowledge. I'm saying there isn't enough evidence that he's intimately familiar with everybody's Bankai. Some of the characters haven't even seen each others Bankai in ages within the 13 Court Guards.

What I'm claiming is that his claim is based on the knowledge that bankai are generally 5-10x, and that bankai exist that only give a stat amp, therefore to claim hollowfication>bankai, he would need to include a bankai he knows is possible that gives a 10x stat amp. He doesn't need to have the bankai encyclopedia to know a bankai that grants a 10x amp to stats might exist.

You can think that. I disagree.

Your claims are still contradicted.

Your claims are "Tousen says that his Hollowfication is greater than mere Bankai, so what he really means is that the stat-multiplying attribute of all Hollowfication in general is superior to the best possible stat-multiplication granted by any Bankai."

My claim is "Tosen says hollowfication is far greater than mere bankai, it's shown multiple times to be stronger than bankai, and multiple characters rely on it over their bankai, thus hollowfication must be stronger than bankai"

Sorry if I think that claim is not sufficiently supported by the evidence you've presented but it is an exceedingly generous interpretation for the transparent sake of some upgrades for characters. Multipliers have standards on the wiki and for an upgrade to multipliers for all of these characters you'll need more than a non-specific statement from Tousan and some characters opting to make use of their Hollowfication instead of their Bankai.

Good thing there's also multiple characters demonstrating that it grants them a bigger boost than bankai then, like Ichigo and Tosen, and even arguably Love and Rose.

The argument for Love and Rose would go like this: Shunsui and Ukitake are stated by Yamamoto to be transcendent in their ability, therefore they are stronger than any captains not shown to be better than they are, meaning Yama, Aizen, and Unohana. Love and Rose aren't shown to be on the same level as Shunsui and Ukitake. Shunsui was able to fight base Starrk fairly evenly with his shikai, and was able to hold out against a casual res Starrk. Love and Rose in their masked state are able to deal with res Starrk pretty effectively, thus this scaling chain is born:

Love and Rose<shikai Shunsui~base Starrk<res Starrk(x5)~>Masked Love and Rose.

Or, Love and Rose go from weaker than Shunsui to relative to, if a bit weaker than, res Starrk, meaning their masks also grant a bigger boost than resurreccion and, by extension, bankai

 

[Duedate8898]

While I won't disagree with the idea that the mask might have a greater multiplier than Bankai, I don't agree with saying that multiplier should be assumed to be 10x. From the original statement that gives the Bankai multipliers, the 5-10x multiplier is an average of itself. Meaning that Bankai's can give greater or lesser multipliers than that. Not to mention how Bankai in of themselves, as we all know, can amplify a variety of things and not just strictly stats.

What makes Hollowfication superior could be a variety of things, one of them being that Hollowfication more clearly seems to always amp strength and speed no matter whose doing it. The fact that all Hollowfication does this might be one of the reasons that Tosen, whose Bankai nor Shikai seem to do anything to amplify his own stats considers it far greater. Not to mention that of the Visored's whose Bankai we've seen, none of theirs actually seem to give flat amps like their hollow mask hence that could also be the reason they tend to use just hollow mask over Bankai across the board.

Generally, I think at best, 6x multiplier might be in order as the flat assumption across the board.