Hokuto no Ken revisions

[Promestein]

Alright, so I've read the first half of Hokuto no Ken. Our pages have a lot of issues, ranging from inaccurate scaling to plagiarism.

- Scaling to Kaioh: A lot of characters are scaled to Kaioh and EoS Kenshiro, which is quite inaccurate. Kenshiro fought evenly with and eventually defeated Raoh; that same Kenshiro lost to Kaioh, who later fought Kenshiro at his strongest. We can't scale Raoh to this, despite statements of him being equal to Kaioh, because those contradict everything shown in the story; and we should avoid speculative keys like "Full Potential" when normal Raoh was the one said to be equal to Kaioh, to my understanding.

- Jagi: I don't think Jagi's low-end stats should scale to Raoh Gaiden Raoh. There's no indication that he's stronger than him; and besides, Raoh did that casually and has always been Jagi's superior. It seems fairly arbitrary, even if Jagi has higher feats, to scale him to something that he has no direct indication of being stronger than.

What we can scale Jagi to is nameless fodder who can smash rocks and walls for his low-end, and for his high-end, we use the fact that he scarred himself (given that he survived blows from Kenshiro) and Amiba. So, "At least Wall level, likely At least Small Island level". We cannot scale Jagi to Kenshiro's higher-end stats, because all of the siblings are far superior to him. Jagi injured Kenshiro, before the events of the series, when Kenshiro was weaker, and those wounds were minor anyways. Still, Jagi should be closer to Kenshiro and his siblings in power than the aforementioned fodder.

Characters who are capable of threatening Kenshiro yet are still dispatched without much issue, such as Amiba, Uighur, etc. should be At least Small Island level.

- Ryuken: Ryuken is not far superior to Raoh. Ryuken beat Raoh before the events of the series. Raoh during the events of the series beat Koryu without much issue, and he was comparable to Ryuken. This is not surprising in the slightest. Students eventually surpass their masters.

When I revise the pages, I will deal with the plagiarism issues and trim any unnecessary information and length.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Sounds very reasonable to me.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Seems reasonable

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sounds logical and justifiable I agree.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I can agree with Jagis stats, I initially scaled him to BOS raoh(during the events of raoh gaiden.) because he performed that buliding busting feat so casually and I assume Jagi at his best would be somewhat comparable to that. Idk if wall level is better because Jagi by no means fodder(maybe to his other brothers.) but I don't mind having him at wall level until new evidences suggest he could be higher

As for raoh, it has been Stated that raoh has the superior strength compared to all of the brothers(heck Kenshiro in his epilogue arc told baron that his strength surpassed his and would have soundly defeated him if not for him letting himself lose.) Also another indication of them being similar is the rank given to each character (AAA,AA,A etc.) and only but a few characters are given the rank of AAA.

Toki,raoh,Kenshiro,Ryuken,Kaioh. So having them scale to each other IMO makes sense. Now since you are reading hokuto no Ken(which makes me very happy to see you took up the chance of reading it.) you must know that Kaioh, raoh and toki also possess the hokuto Soke bloodline. That means that "full potential" power that hyoh and Kenshiro unlocked can be unlocked to raoh and toki as well.

Now Kenshiro was able to unlock his with the statue, however hyoh was able to unlock it all on his own(we don't know how exactly likely he unlocked it as a kid, but if he was able to do it, why wouldn't Roah be able to.) we could put a possibly sign next to his stats since we have no idea if Roah or toki ever unlock the full bloodline potential within them, But other than that I'm going to have to disagree with not scaling raoh with Kenshiro or Kaioh

Now for the issue with Ryuken and Koryu. Yes raoh dispatched him much easier than he did with Ryuken, and yes their strengths were considered equals. And that is why Koryu was ranked AA, now I've noticed the difference between AA and AAA was usually due to skill. It makes sense, Ryuken being superior to raoh in skill and soundly defeating him make sense, than the fact he got sick from the radiation sickness make sense to as why he lost. Now considering Hokuto users get stronger with every fight they get in, plus the fact raoh observed Ryukens fight and learned from it via sueichein. It again make sense he was able to dispatch Koryu so quickly becuase what Koryu lacked against Ryuken was skill, same with raoh.

So Ryuken being far inferior in strength to raoh would be ridiculous. Considering he was able to damage him quite easily. And the reason why Koryu lost so easily to raoh was simply a matter of skill really. So I'm going to have to disagree not scaling Ryuken to raoh

 

[Grudgeman1706]

As for the plagrism issues, I've been meaning to change the information on all their pages(I already started with kenshiros.) But I've been quite busy with life and simply haven't gotten the time to do so. I appreciate the cooperation you are willing to changing the pages.

 

[Promestein]

I'm not saying Ryuken doesn't scale to Raoh, I'm saying that Ryuken is not >>>> Raoh at his best.

That seems very inconsistent to me. I know that they're all of the same bloodline, but I don't think Raoh and Toki have unlocked their full potential. A big deal would've been made about it. And, again, the Kenshiro that beat Raoh did not unlock his full potential, to my understanding.

Giving Raoh and Toki speculative stats for their full potential seems weird to me. We'd have to give speculative full potential stats to a bunch of characters. Like Gohan.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Promestein okay I see what you mean for Ryuken, I mean yah he's not completely superior to Raoh, it was just a matter of skill on who was superior.

Also it wouldn't be that much of a speculative stat, this isn't something they could potentially do, it's not like Gohan with his father goku who could potential'l one day pass him if he treated just as hard. This is a difference in whether or not they unlocked the literal full potential within their bloodline and it's not crazy to say they could have since they were born in the same as Ken and are much older, so raoh knowing of the hokuto soke bloodline wouldn't be crazy. In fact he was ready to face his brother after Kenshiro, and knew whoever lost would have to be the one to out Kaioh down.

Iirc you may correct if I'm wrong. But even Lin herself talked about if raoh fought Kaioh and she stated he would have won or something along the lines of that.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'd very much appreciate if we didn't make stats for things a character hasn't done.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Statements that "A character has the potential to surpass another" are meaningless if he doesn't actually do such a thing in story.

Stephen Hawking says that Nanashi has the potential to surpass The Axiom, but that doesn't mean he should be ranked as "Possibly Low 1-B"

 

[Promestein]

Again, Raoh being able to fight Kaioh seems like an inconsistency.

The issue here is, regardless, a lot of characters scaled to Raoh - like Souther - are scaled to the Large Island level stats, which, on top of being speculative, don't even apply to those characters.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Prom actually makes a good point there, Grudge.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Souther was scaled to raoh because he is strong enough to hurt or even kill raoh and Kenshiro, and the reason they can't kill him really was he had immunity to their hax so they had to fight physically with them. And in the raoh gaiden series it was stated they would have killed each other if they continued to fight, so raoh stated away form souther until he could get past his immunity. Plus souther is ranked AA only one rank below raoh so I thought it would makes sense considering how they were. But I contemplated that for a while so you can decide whether or not to scale souther to raohs island level stat than to kenshiros large island level.

 

[Promestein]

Several things.

- Again, the full potential thing. I'm not going to restate that point.

- Raoh stated that Kenshiro was stronger and faster than Souther.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, about this plagiarism issue here, are the pages for HnK directly ripped off from the HnK wiki, or are they being ripped off from somewhere else?

As for Kenshiro, Raoh, and Toki's stats, both Raoh and Toki should only be scaled to Kenshiro's stats before unlocking his full potential, as Kenshiro was nowhere near his full potential during his encounters with Raoh/Toki.

Raoh AP should be just flat out

• Attack Potency: At least Small Island level, likely Island level

Raoh should scale to Kenshiro during their final fight pretty much. Didn't Raoh and Kenshiro had a fight prior to their very final fight, with Kenshiro actually outmatching him? It was this one.


Hokuto no Ken - Kenshiro Vs. Raoh

Toki's AP should be rated

• Attack Potency: At least Small Island level

For why Toki is rated this way, we only know for a fact that Toki faced Raoh when he was almost sick and dying. Raoh even states that Toki's sickness was hampering him from using his full strength, thus it would be incorrect to say that Toki was flat out equal to Raoh, even though we could consider them comparable to each other.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Several things.

- Again, the full potential thing. I'm not going to restate that point.

- Raoh stated that Kenshiro was stronger and faster than Souther.

-Fair enough

- Where did he say he was stronger and faster, I don't recall him ever saying that, a scan would be very much appreciated

 

[Promestein]

They're copied from the Hnk wiki. I know it's something the wiki can live with but I want to fix it.

Yes, they did, though that was because of Muso Tensei.

Toki still seriously injured Raoh and fought on par with him. It was even stated that they were equal; If Toki wasn't sick, he'd have beaten Raoh.

 

[Promestein]

Kenshiro's stronger than Souther. I seem to have misremembered the speed, but there you go.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Kenshiro's stronger than Souther. I seem to have misremembered the speed, but there you go.

Okay I remember that, but while yes Kenshiro is superior to souther in strength, souther was still capable of cutting and hurting Kenshiro in their first and second fight. So him having similar but weaker strength to raoh and Ken makes total sense.

But once again if you'd like to scale him to BOS than end of series I won't stop you.

 

[Promestein]

Does anyone have any objections, or can I start these revisions?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Don't think there's no objections here.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@prom could you make a list of which characters are going to be affected

 

[Lina_Shields]

If you are going to start the revisions, list all of the stats of the characters that you have changed in your next post. The stat changes should read as:

Raoh

• Attack Potency: --- level
• Durability: --- level

This should be done for all of the characters that need to be changed, as to see if all of the changes made were correct.

 

[Promestein]

I know how to list the character's stats.

BoS Kenshiro and Raoh's stats will not change, though I will remove Raoh's full potential key for the reasons stated above.

Toki:

• Attack Potency: At least Small Island level, likely Island level (Equal to Kenshiro and Raoh. If it had not been for his sickness, he'd have been the successor to Hokuto Shinken and would've killed Raoh).
• Durability: At least Small Island level, likely Island level

Jagi:

• Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Should be vastly superior to nameless fodder capable of smashing boulders and walls), likely Small Island level (While still the weakest of the Hokuto siblings by far, he should be closer to their level than the level of nameless fodder. Scarred himself and Amiba).
• Durability: At least Small Island level (Survived many blows from an angry Kenshiro, though Kenshiro was deliberately trying to prolong his suffering)

Souther:

• Attack Potency: At least Small Island level, likely Island level (The strongest practitioner of Nanto Seiken. Defeated Kenshiro in their first fight and fought Raoh to a draw).
• Durability: At least Small Island level, likely Island level

Ryuke:

• Attack Potency: At least Small Island level, likely Island level (Initially stomped Raoh in their fight before the events of the series, only losing due to his illness).
• Durability: At least Small Island level, likely Island level

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Prom's suggestion is fine me thinks

 

[Lina_Shields]

The listed stats that you proposed sounds good. Will you be making the changes soon, or tonight?

 

[Promestein]

The plan is to start tonight. I dunno when I'll finish them, since I'm also planning to rewrite the summaries and powers so that they are no longer copypasted from the Hokuto no Ken wiki and are more concise.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Promestein makes sense.

 

[Promestein]

I revised Souther's page. It's late, and I've had a long day, so I'll work on the rest tomorrow.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Thank you for the help.

 

[Promestein]

I finished the revisions I laid out earlier. I'm going to start dealing with the plagiarism issue on other pages now.

 

[Ryukama]

@Prom Thank you for your help.

I have removed Raoh's Large Island "full potential" stats as well.

 

[Promestein]

It's nothing. Thank you, Ryu.

 

[Ryukama]

No it's not nothing. You're taking your time to greatly improve the quality, logical coherancy and moral integrity of our pages here. And going through the effort to rewrite entire sections yourself, which is considerably harder than just rewriting the stats.

It's a big help, and we appreciate it.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

What Ryu said. (NODS)

 

[Promestein]

Thank you. I'm glad to be a help.

I've fixed up the plagiarism issues on Kenshiro's pages. While this involved the removal of most of the other techniques of other schools, a lot of that information was redundant and thus unnecessary.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Understandable.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Thank you. I'm glad to be a help.

I've fixed up the plagiarism issues on Kenshiro's pages. While this involved the removal of most of the other techniques of other schools, a lot of that information was redundant and thus unnecessary.

I understand very much so your actions for revoking a lot of the excess Info on the pages. But was it really necessary to have almost removed all of the techniques of the other schools. A lot of these moves are used in the manga but are never given a proper name or description so that's where the games come in because they give a proper name and description of each technique. I have the games and if you want we can rewrite the moves together on the pages.

Also a lot of these moves have very useful attributes and noting them is something that should be done, removing them would be arbitrary as they still provide some background information for users reading his pages, in a way adds flair to it.

 

[Ryukama]

@Grudge if you want to rewrite those sections, feel free to do so. But we're not keeping plagiarized work on the profiles or stuff that is overly redundant.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Grudge if you want to rewrite those sections, feel free to do so. But we're not keeping plagiarized work on the profiles or stuff that is overly redundant.

That is completely reasonable and have no problem with that