High 1-C Halo.

[KarmodF]

So, in Halo is stated that the Slip-Space is a multidimensional Space-Time Continuum, but how much does this Space-Time continuum is? Eleven Dimensions. As stated by Halo: First Strike, Eleven No-Visible Dimensions, this Dimensions are compressed to the point of being Infinitesimal, meaning that this Pocket Reality (The Slip-Space) is Complex Multiversal Space.


So... How this scales to the Forerunners? The Forerunners are capable of modifiying the Slip-Space at their liking reaching near Tier 0 (Trascendant) meaning that they almost were able to create Eleven-Dimensional Space (Like the Precursors). Not to mention that they have shown Inmesurable speed and Reality Warping in Slip-Space. So: -This is actual canon, not something that the writter pulled out of his ass or rather just a brief mention.

-The statement from First Strike

-Being theorised by the UNSC as a Tangled dimensional space.

-Satements of Forerunner constructs being Higher Dimensions.

-The Halo Warfleet statement.

And nothing of these has been retconned.

Questions and Answers.

"This is an Outlier, the Forerunner tech isnt this strong." R=The Forerunner Tech heavily varies, the Prometheans surviving nukes, some of their Mechs destorying planets and then you have 3-C with the Tilt of Galaxies,3-A/2-C Void Manipulationand 2-A Power Generation, his Tech never show a "Peak", only when they created their Instalations.

"This came out of nowere, so this cant be acepted." R=The Forerunners were concived until Halo 2, as far as I remeber CE never mentioned them, It was until 2004 when Halo 2 came out in 2004, not only Halo: First Strike came in 2003, meaning that they were concived as Higher-Dimensional Reality Warpers since the get go, some of his structures are mentioned to be Higher-Dimensions in Halo: Ghost of Onyx (2006), in plural meaning at least 5 Dimensional.

"The Writters dont know about Dimensions." R= Eric Nylund have been working for Halo since 2001 al the way to Halo: Reach, he never used dimensions as a way to say "Universes" or "Timeline", he is a Sci-Fi expert and followed Halo since the start never making any PIS on his works in Halo, his work hasnt been Retconed since the Halo: Warfleet still uses the Multidimensional statement (A book from 343i a.k.a main canon, a book from 2017), he isnt like Greg Bear who created by far the worst triology of Books in Halo History and that some of his work have been retconed by 343i.

"Forerunners are grounded to Galaxy level, anything far than that seems speculative." R=Sorry, but no, the Haloverse have shown to Have Infinite Universes, like 7 separate Universes and even more thanks to some citations by the Didact, the fact that they only make stuff on the Milky Way is because the main point for them is to have an Empire that covers the entire Galaxy, not because characters live on a normal world means they cant have 4-C or even 2-A feats.

"The Flood beat them and they are only 3-C, that means this is heavily inconsistent" R= This is a big mistake that people think and that haters use to downgrade the Forerunners, the Flood didnt beat the Forerunners, the De-Evolved form of the Precursors known (nicknamed) as Floodcursors were the Masters pulling the strings, these beings were capable of helping the Flood to beat the Forerunners since they prefered to Scare them and provocate them looking how their Tech is stolen and infected by other Civilization, and these upgrade would make more credible the fact that the Flood beat the Forerunners since they use Slip-Space portals to Curbstomp them to death.

"Even if this gets added they wouldnt be able to use this for Offensive purposes." R=Not really, they were able to negate dura. by creating portals inside the Ships of their enemies and pulverized them, every Forerunners Ship had Slip-Space Tech. and the fact that not even one Ship survived this tactic makes this upgrade even more reasonable.

NOTE (Important): This treath was going to be created originally on Friday to get the Final results on Sunday, so I would not be able to answer any question from now until Saturday, I decided to create this treath today because I have a little free time and that the info. seems enough to make the Upgrade, I would prefer Staff that thinks this seems reasonable, and get other (more mixed) coments on Saturday.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Following.

 

[Huesito88]

Interesting

 

[FanofRPGs]

1. The Forerunners are tier 1 on there scale, but they are nowhere near tier 0, they are not reaching it. Even back in the Forerunner-Precursor war when they were more advanced, they were still not even scratching tier 0.

2. The outlier argument does not work. As this range is to be expected by all races in Halo. Covenant has 9-B weapons with 7-B ships and 5-C super-tech. Humans have 9-B weapons with 7-C ships and 6-A super-tech. Its evenly distributed, and we have justification for their 2-A rating in that its not actual destruction, but causal hax-butchery on a multiversal scale. Tier 1 is so out of the question its ridiculous, and the Forerunners cannot make or manipulate it on a large scale. They take localized regions and manipulate it so their transport is easier, and even that is seldom as it still ***** them over causally, If they were really in control of a 1-C existence, they would have more than just mere time-dilation.

3. Yes, the writers know what they are writing about for dimensions. As in they know how to write it unlike I/O, or Demonbane, or some other softer shit which claims dimensions = higher infinities. Our system bases of the fictional status quo, in that writers misconstrue dimensions to be higher infinities. Innacurate to real science? Yes. However most useful and worthy for a system? Yes. The Halo writers don't write them as higher infinities, rather subspaces where physics runs a tangent from ours. How can the Glow be a higher dimensional reality of infinity unfathomable to us if it is literally quantically composed of photons, I.E a thing pretty damn common to our 3rd Spatial Dimension?

>Forerunner Trilogy

>Worst books in Halo series

>When Karen Traviss exists


You Serious?-1507256016

4. Except these alternate universes and timelines aren't like some multiverse and talked of in a sense that the Forerunners even think they can fully master and conquer. Rather interesting oddities of the greater universe which the Forerunners realize they can exploit to a degree. They have little control of the greater amount of Slip-Space, just a small zone letting them conquer the galaxy and at most local galaxies too

5. I can't care any less if the Precursors get 1-C, given there is actual justification to some twisted degree. The Floodcursors are complete bastardization of them, not being but an infinitesimal fraction of their true force. If the Forerunners can not deal with one 1 senile rogue and corrupted Precursor, how can they deal with a whole 1-C race who so easily shut them down. If they are such big masters off 11-D space, how did simply blocking out slipspace **** them over so easily?

6.

>Forerunners offesively 1-C

Yes, when their greatest weapon in all of existence can blast out 25,000 light years across space-time. Yet they somehow have complex multiversal+ range and damage-leveled tech for other stuff. That makes perfect sense

 

[Tonie_M._Movies_Productions]

Whoa

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Welp, that ended quickly.

 

[Tonie_M._Movies_Productions]

Hah, yeah

 

[KarmodF]

Giant Wall of text.

Seriously do people dont take like 3 or 2 minutes to read the damn note that is on bold, Jesus Christ.

1.The Forerunners were capable of controlling the Slip-Space at a big extend, to the point of ALMOST reaching Tier 0, Its even present on the profiles, yes, not to full extent or at the likes of the Precursors but still at a massive extend.

2.His tehc. varies is the point, the Ships would just open a Portal to Slip-space inside one of the Human's planets and the War should be over but they decided to send War Sphynxes to destroy their "Cities" instead, they dont have a peak when it comes to technologie.

3.I dont think many characters (Say Bill Cipher, the SCP Gods and others) follow the rule of Higher Infinite, these are more like the Axis movement (More dimensions more ways to go), seriously saying that the Dimensions on the Slip-space are only Subspaces based on the fact that the Glow has been theorized to be made of photons is dumb, they could travel there and notice that was just a infinite place with literally nothing in it and say it was made of photons when in reality they are just too lower dimensional to realize they arent able to see the full extent of that realm. Gonna give you the Spider-Man reference, sick burn.

4.The main point of Halo has always been the Galaxie, there are realms that are outside of the Universe they live in (They aborted nacend Universes, various ones as If they know these weren gonna run out so they can make fuel out of them), yeah they never conquered them or even traveled to them bu the fact that Halo expands over the simple galactic scale still exist.

5.The Flood infected their ships, giving them "A taste of their own medicine", using their Slip-Space tech and fighting against them in both normal Space and Slip-space, I dont know were did you get the part of Infinitesimally weaker than the actual Precursors, Its unknown to what extend the Flood were able to influence Slip-space, not to mention they Reality Warp an Eleven-Dimensional Space-Time (Forerunners), they didnt have any reality warp outside it, thats why Blocking and supsequently using Slip-space as their main weapon screwed them over.

6.Yeah dude, because their Ships cant make the same feat and travel at those speeds!, Seriously If you ment that the Mantle is the strongest thing on their Arsenal you are wrong, very wrong, like what about the Guardians, War Sphynx, Void Manipulation and Heavy Cruisers, the mantle isnt even as strong as some of their fodder ships, they could use this Slip-Space tech. to create portals inside of enemy ships, negating Durability, is not full "Ofensive purpose" but is the closest to that, not to mention Mendicant being able to know exactly were John was gonna travel trought Installation 4 (B), If a single AI is capable of traveling/knowing Time at that extend (Meaning he traveled trough time) is just dumb the people that created are unable to do so, so Time Dilatation is just an understatement.

SERIOUSLY I CANT ANSWER THIS QUESTIONS RIGHT NOW THATS WHY I PUT THAT NOTE IN BOLD.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

And just like that, the journey continues.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@KarmodF "The Forerunners were capable of controlling the Slip-Space at a big extend, to the point of ALMOST reaching Tier 0, Its even present on the profiles, yes, not to full extent or at the likes of the Precursors but still at a massive extend."

This is a massive claim to make which requires sufficient proof, if it's just throwaway statements of being omnipotent or all powerful etc, that's common in fiction and doesn't mean jack unless you have an established hierachy in which there are beings who are beyond all levels of dimensions, whatever level it is, infinite or not, and then being ridiculous beyond such beings who are tier 1-A, that you transcend them to the point as if they are the same as regular humans to you, and you are boundless, have no limitations, beyond everything etc.

Unless you show me proof of this saying someone almost reaches Tier 0 when what i am seeing here is an 11-D feat which is so far below Tier 0 it's not even funny. Now as for your other reasons i know nothing about halo so i will just watch how this plays out, FanofRPGs reasoning seems reasonable to me though.

 

[Fllflourine]

@Celestial, by "Tier 0", KarmodF means the Tier 0 from the in-universe Forerunner Tech Advancement Tiers, which is quite confusing, since i also read the OP's tier 0 as being our tier 0 at first.

also, fan did not mean mantle's approach when he was referring to the strongest forerunner weapon, he was referring to the halo array. @karmodf

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@FIIflourine I see, it was confusing indeed, glad that got cleared up.

Gonna watch how this plays out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, I hope saying this is not offensive, but I agree with @FanofRPGs; this just feels wanked.

First of all, the eleven-dimensional stuff is a statement made by one of the human characters; not a feat. I know statements can be acceptable if they haven't been contradicted, but the fact is, it has been contradicted. Slipspace still behaves like a pocket realm rather than an eleven dimensional multiverse. And while I'm still unsure about Immeasurable speed; it does mentioned time travel, it still sounds more like moving in a timeless void. Also, there is a fact that, they don't time travel outside of Slipspace, proving that it qualifies as moving in a timeless void and can only be considered MFTL+ at best.

Additionally, as Fan mentioned, their ships that they use to travel through Slipspace have only City level durability; they still get easily destroyed by 30 megaton bombs. And of course, the 2-A rating isn't even remotely combat applicable as mentioned multiple times on multiple threads. And still, the best human weapons, being the Nova Bomb, are only High 6-A, so no human weapon could possibly be upper dimensional either. And of course, the Floodcursors, or Devolved Precursors are only 3-C at their peak; an yet they still destroyed the Forerunners.

As for defending Eric Nylund by saying he's been working on Halo since 2001, that's not a good argument, because there do exists older and ongoing sci-fi stories where people still get the definition of dimensions wrong. And it isn't just the term "dimension," it's very common in fiction for authors to refer to star systems as galaxies, galaxies, as universes, and parallel universes as dimensions. Take Mr Mxy for example, some comics have him stated to be capable of creating "infinite dimensional compressed realities," but that's contradicted. He only creates 5-dimensional multiverses containing an infinite number of 4-dimensional universes; therefore, he's only High 2-A as opposed to 1-A. There were statements about Marvel's Asgard being 9 compressed dimensions from what I heard, but that's also contradicted and Odin is only 3-B to Low 2-C last I checked.

Sorry, I don't think the Tier 1 stuff is going to happen any time soon.

 

[KarmodF]

All opinion is acepted as far it isnt insulting, Its not wanking, let me explain.

-Yes a character said the Eleven-Dimensions, but the books and other sources help this argument to be counted, "Slipspace still behaves like a pocket realm rather than an eleven dimensional multiverse." I dont think you understand that the Slip-Space is a literal Pocket Reality, similar when you create a Multiverse and incapsulated in a bottle or something, Btw the Inmesurable speed that I am refering comes from the 11-D Multiverse theory.

-The Ships themselves are capable of travelign trough time, but opening a portal to slipspace colapsed them, they created motors specificly to travel at stupid speeds and have the Ships not tear apart by the movement, the 2-A rating does not aply I know (Tought it was used power up planetary sized shielding), the Floodcursors are of unknown Tiering, they arent the Low Key Precursors neither the High Key Flood so no 3-C argument.

-If an author uses Dimensions refering Space-Time they ment Dimensions, they came out of Slip-Space when he said that line, when does Eleven Space-Time Galaxies/Universe/Multiverse/-Isertanyword-verse where introduced to Slip-Space?, The problem with Odin is that he is a character that comes from only one iteration and that fights many underpowered characters, so they cant upgraded to a Higher Dimension, same with Myx, he only have one iteration, he has Higher feats than 5-D but he have more consistent 5-D feats, Forerunner are a civilization, thats why they have tech that warps many Nacent Universes, Multiversal Power Generation and are Capable of Controlling the Tilt of Entire Galaxies (All of these being stated by the books) but they call the Halos their Magnum Opus even if these only Life Wipe on a Galactic Scale.

I need to upload the OP, but I literally have no time to coment on this treath, let alone be on this wiki, thats why It have been freezed for like 2 or 3 days not because I dont want to answer, but to give some perspective:

-No, they arent Eleven Dimensional and neither can Reality Warp Eleven Dimensional Space-Time (Outside Slip-Space) thats why they were so screwed when the Flood infected Slip-Space, because it was his most powerful technologie.

-The Ofensive purpose is miss understand, they opened Holes inside enemy ships so they can negate durability (Thats why the Subspace argument is invalid AF, if it was just other Space where they can travel, the Ships were they opened portals just have been sucked by the Holes), If they open a portal to Slip-Space against a Lower than 10-D being they could probably colapse, but against 11-D they just get (Dimensional?) BFR to Slip-Space.

Sorry for the grammar I cant check the spelling right now

 

[Jockey-1337]

Bump

 

[FanofRPGs]

Bump

No. Just no.

They are not High 1-C. These same "higher dimensions" (They aren't higher planes of infinity, just dimensional axes which give one the advantage at moving around I.E Slipspace) include the Glow... Which are made of Photons. These spaces are accessed by punching holes into their existence. I guess we should have High 1-C UNSC too.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This thread is a little old and kind of debunked by everyone. Should we just go ahead and close it?

 

[KarmodF]

This thread is a little old and kind of debunked by everyone. Should we just go ahead and close it?

Yeah is kinda old but I dont see the debunking really.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, Fan and I both mentioned many reasons and both the staff and the main halo experts agree with us. There's still no proof of 11-dimensional stuff; the strongest UNSC weapons are High 6-A at best, and all ships; human, Covenant, or Forerunner, have City level durability at best. And even if you're gonna argue about "Devolved Precursors nicknamed Floodcursors and not the Flood destroying the Forerunners," it is still a fact that those Floodcursors are still comparable to the Flood, who are 3-C at best.

Between those arguments and that fact that no one really agrees with the Tier 1 revisions, I think the topic is pretty much concluded, unless FanofRPGs or Soldier Blue has more to say.

 

[KarmodF]

Why even brought the UNSC and Covenant? (And no, the NOVA Bomb is 5-C At the very least) not to mention that your points are fairly weak like saying that Ships and other constructs arent Higher-Dimensional (Tought some are) and how do you know that the Floodcursors are 3-C at best for scaling to the weakest Galactic Flood, they were barely mention, hell, even the name "Floodcursor" is fan-made, not to mention that you compare the to the Flood instead of the Precursors (2-A) only to make them look weak.

"Between those arguments and that fact that no one really agrees with the Tier 1 revisions" yes, because only one of the staff (Celestial Pegasus) replied and didnt even decide.

People dont understand that the Forerunners themselves arent 11-D (Only 3-D with a Ton of tech.), the Slipspace is the Eleven Dimensional place that they were capable of fully control.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, FanofRPGs is a Calc group member, so he still counts as staff. Same with Fllflourine and Soldier Blue; Content Moderators are obviously staff as well. The Everlasting, who is also an Admin gave FanofRPGs a kudos.

I brought the UNSC up because they also have access to Slipspace technology, and so did Fan. And their technology definitely not 11-D. And actually, Nova Bombs are High 6-A according to the UNSC profile, and it was calc'd in Petatons referring to a previous discussion board. And yes, well aware that Forerunners are only 3-D, but technology is not 11-D either as there's no proof of it. It's 4-D at best.

It's still listed on the The Precursors's profile that their devolved forms are 4-B to 3-C and once again, it wasn't just me, Fan also mentioned it.

 

[KarmodF]

Yes they definelty give Fan a kudo becuase of his wall of text, not because of the J.J. Abrhams joke, not to mention that puting staff over anything (Even Admin.) should be wrong, opninions vary from person to person, they would read this and reply something like "I actually agree with Fan thats why I give Kudos" even when they dont understand what they are talking about.

The UNSC and Covenant are faaaaaaaaaar below in terms of Slip-Space tech. they would never scale they only use it for traveling (Same with the Covenant) while Forerunners Warp and Manipulate Slip-Space on its entirety, and how Vaporizing a Moon and 1/4 of the Planet is only High 6-A? And is actually 5-Dimensional.

What do you mean? The Keyminds and Floodcursors are two different things, they talk about Flood using weak Precursor tech. and even then they re-wrote Universal Laws. (Tha Key should be removed and change the End Key of the Flood for that one instead.)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And some of those same people also mentioned off the thread that they agree with Fan; and the fact is, some of those same people are both knowledgeable for the standards of tiering and VS debating, so their input is generally very important.

I'm well aware of that, but that doesn't mean Forerunners are invincible compared to the UNSC or Covenant. Also, even the forerunners have limits with their own technology, otherwise Forerunners would have never struggled to fight humans to begin with. But the fact is, they have. "How is vaporizing moons and 1/4 of a planet only High 6-A?" Because those are very small moons and/or planets; the GBE of Pluto is only High 6-A. And vaporizing a moon =/= over powering the Moon's GBE and dispersing it completely. Vaporization turning a giant solid ball into a giant gas ball. There's no proof of 5-dimension either; being on an "upper-dimension higher than humans can comprehend" isn't proof of 5-D; otherwise whole bunch of characters, including almost every deity in fiction, would be upgraded to High 2-A or above.

Not sure who added the Ancient Key Mind key to the Precursors profile, but I was informed that the Flood were thought to be a reincarnation of the extinct Precursors.