Kyogre Vs Acnologia (High 6A Tourney)

[Stupits]

Same rules as stated in the tournament

Kyogre: 8

Acnologia:

Incon:

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, this is a weird match.
First, the location is a sealed central park, and I'm not sure if sealed means literally closed between walls or just "invisible barrier"
Without water, base Kyogre is almost motionless, since it doesn't fly, while Acnologia can fly and move freely.
Rain will start immediately, but I'm not sure if the fight would last enough to allow Kyogre to float or swim, and/or drown Acnologia to death (still assuming that sealed central park is literal, and I don't know if dimensional travel is allowed).
All of this might sound stupid, but it isn't so obvious.
Moving on, Acnologia has the advantage in AP and durability (67.2 vs 35.6, and Acnologia's defense is higher than his attack power) and this battle would likely be them shooting magic blasts and water and ice beams at each other.
If we consider pseudo-motionless Kyogre, then Acnologia takes this just by flying, shooting and dodging.
But, from what I can see from the rules, speed isn't equal, so Kyogre takes the first shot, which is likely Primal Pulse (with a 30% boost thanks to Water Gem), but it wouldn't be enough to knock out Acnologia immediately.
Kyogre can heal and raise attack and defense but, again, if it can't move properly, it loses badly.

 

[Stupits]

Well, this is a weird match.
First, the location is a sealed central park, and I'm not sure if sealed means literally closed between walls or just "invisible barrier"
Without water, base Kyogre is almost motionless, since it doesn't fly, while Acnologia can fly and move freely.
Rain will start immediately, but I'm not sure if the fight would last enough to allow Kyogre to float or swim, and/or drown Acnologia to death (still assuming that sealed central park is literal, and I don't know if dimensional travel is allowed).
All of this might sound stupid, but it isn't so obvious.
Moving on, Acnologia has the advantage in AP and durability (67.2 vs 35.6, and Acnologia's defense is higher than his attack power) and this battle would likely be them shooting magic blasts and water and ice beams at each other.
If we consider pseudo-motionless Kyogre, then Acnologia takes this just by flying, shooting and dodging.
But, from what I can see from the rules, speed isn't equal, so Kyogre takes the first shot, which is likely Primal Pulse (with a 30% boost thanks to Water Gem), but it wouldn't be enough to knock out Acnologia immediately.
Kyogre can heal and raise attack and defense but, again, if it can't move properly, it loses badly.

invisible barrier so acnologia wont stomp via flying as for kyogre's case i can do smth like put a big lake there that should be good enough

Nah the "sealed" part is just for flying so water will still get out but im pretty sure kyogre is strong enough to drown the entire world so acnologia will have to try ending this fast. Also for tourneys sba is instantly applied so speed equalized

Edit: added SBA in the rules to prevent confusion

 

[Stupits]

uhmmm also moves that are stated to attack first via gameplay mechanics should still attack first even if speed equalized iirc

 

[SamanPatou]

Drowning the entire world will take time, at least hours, if not some day. It's not a super fast process, and the initial storm involves only the city of Sootopolis, and threatens to expand over all the region. Acnologia would still have to fight among clouds, rain and wind.
The big lake should make the fight even, I suppose, even though Acnologia likely blows the lake away by firing magic blasts, as a consequence of the battle, but let'signore this for a moment.
Acnologia has an AP and durability advantage, but rain and stats buffs fill the gap a bit.
Kyogre holds the edge in versatility, with stats reduction, ice attacks that may freeze (I don't know is using Sheer Cold is possible) and healing. Thunder may also be used to strike directly Acnologia from the sky, but Kyogre doesn't learn it naturally, so I'll ignore it in my argument.
Most of Acnologia's powers are related to dragons and magic, and both things aren't a factor here, so he lacks versatily.
Dragging Kyogre into the space between time likely breaks the battle, I don't really know how it would work, especially when there's not water there.
The battle would be likely both shooting at each other from sky and water, Kyogre might have a very slight edge since he can hide underwater (And Acnologia can't sense it, since it's not a magical being), but this is a very minor factor.

Overall, I'm leading with Kyogre, for now

 

[Stupits]

Kyogre would only have to submerge the world 50 meters high though so we could argue that it would take less than an hour. also assuming Acnologia wont be able to oneshot Kyogre this fight will take very long perhaps even last a day so drowning Acnologia should still be a threat. Correct me if i'm wrong though

Acnologia has resistace to all kinds of Magic but I dont think that applies here so Sheer cold should work. As for BFR it isnt a wincon for this tourney (I should probs add that to the rules). But yeah u make a good point so will you vote Kyogre?

 

[SamanPatou]

I honestly don't know how much it would take, considering that the water can flow off the park, maybe just hours, we don't have a real timeframe. But, from the moment in which the storm starts, the player has time to get out of the cavern, talk to a bunch of people, move through the city, talk again, going through another cave and fight Kyogre. During this time, the small city placed over the sea wasn't sinked, but a day, if not much less, should be enough (maybe, I don't really know) to submerge the area.
Acnologia definitely desn't oneshot, the power gap isn't high enough

 

[Stupits]

I honestly don't know how much it would take, considering that the water can flow off the park, maybe just hours, we don't have a real timeframe. But, from the moment in which the storm starts, the player has time to get out of the cavern, talk to a bunch of people, move through the city, talk again, going through another cave and fight Kyogre. During this time, the small city placed over the sea wasn't sinked, but a day, if not much less, should be enough (maybe, I don't really know) to submerge the area.
Acnologia definitely desn't oneshot, the power gap isn't high enough

but how how high was the water?

 

[SamanPatou]

The game shows only a heavy rain coming down, and a bunch of characters tell that the world will eventually be flooded and in that moment the storm cloud was covering only the city, but it would have exapended all over the region soon.
However, they were afraid and convinced that something had to be done quickly.
These are the only informations, and from what I know there aren't similar scenes in the anime or the manga.
If we were talking of Primal Kyogre it would be different, but this is base Kyogre.

 

[Zackra1799]

I think it should be noted that Acno's durability can no sell attacks at his own level and spams Danmaku that can span km explosions for each attack so Kyogere being trapped in a relatively small area is really bad for him as he would just have to tank it.

Also wouldn't verse equalization take care of the magic situation mentioned above?

 

[SamanPatou]

I tried to ignore Acno nuking the lake because it's a bit unfair.
Verse equalization must have a limit, it can't be applied to things so different between each other.
Verse equalization would be fine if we were comparing Acnologia to another dragon or a magic user.
In this case there's only Kyogre's power, an undefined energy completely different from magic.
Otherwise, it can be argued that ice attacks are super effective on Acnologia because dragon types are weak to ice, but Acnologia isn't a Pokémon.

 

[Zackra1799]

Well no, It just has to be between abilities with similar energy, Magic in FT is natural and can be increased with training, which is very similar to pokemon. Which is enough to qualify for vs equalization as Pokemon doesn't have a weird energy system like Bleach with it's soul stuff.

 

[Zackra1799]

Even if we don't equalize It, Kyogre doesn't really have a response to Acno Danmaku nuking the battlefield the entire fight given one of his explosion's is about the size of Central park and he can throw a few hundred if not a few thousand of these at a time.

 

[SamanPatou]

Magic in FT is a sort of substance present in the air, it has also its own name.
Pokemon doesn't use a specific energy, and the only mentioned is aura, which is limited to only a few Pokemon.
They use their own energy, which vary depending on the type and the move of the Pokemon.
Saying that it can be compared to FT's magic is a huge stretch.

 

[SamanPatou]

The range is a problem only if you consider that Kyogre is limited to the lake that we assumed is in this version of Central Park, but then it becomes an unfair fight.
The strength of the attack, however, is an argument

 

[Zackra1799]

Eternal Flare scales to Acno's AP, as in FT attack smaller in scale (Natsu's fist coated in flames), are basically equal with a larger scale attack (Natsu's Fire Dragons Roar) as long as a similar amount of Magic power is put into it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Eternal Flare should get resisted, right? It’s a fire move after all. And base Kyogre can still fly. Nothing implies that it’s specific to Primal Kyogre. And magic does exist in Pokemon. Kyogre isn’t it. Furthermore, Calm Mind is a massive problem. Just...makes it so range is in the whale’s favor.

 

[SamanPatou]

I agree with you, I didn't mean that.
What I was saying is that firing a barrage of strong beams is sure a point and an advantage, but nuking the lake or trapping Kyogre in it shouldn't be an argument, because it depends on the terrain chosen for the fight and not on the characters.
Btw, Kyogre can fire multiple attacks too, even though not as many as Acno at the same time, and can keep up fighting for days with enemies of comparable power, while healing, boosting its stats and reducing those of the opponent and the possibility to inflict some status effect.
Kyogre also gets powered by the rain that constantly comes down and gives him water to control as mean of attack.
But I agree that Acno lands more hits than Kyogre and his more durable.

Eternal Flare isn't fire, it's a barrage of magic beams.
When did Kyogre fly in base?
And what do you think of Sheer Cold? Would be useful or gets nulled according to the in-game rules of the move?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sheer Cold would indeed just allow Kyogre to win if it hits.

Kyogre’s never flown in base, only Primal. It’s just never proven to be an ability specific to Primal, given it’s just a power boost.

I do think Kyogre can stall out Acnologia. Aqua Ring is just healing that’ll never go away, and Calm Mind kinda just screws over Acno just carpet bombing, because they’re doing next to nothing by the time Kyogre maxes out. And Kyogre can just yeet Thunder from the clouds it summoned, adding the unpredictability, and Rest when it gets too close to the brink.

 

[SamanPatou]

If we assume that Kyogre flies even in base, than the battle goes very differently (but it should changed in the profile)
This isn't the right thread to address this, but thunder isn't a move that Kyogre can learn naturally. Or did it use thunder in the anime or the manga? I hope it's not a leftover of Mystery Dungeon

 

[Zackra1799]

Isn't Sheer Cold level based, and if so what does that mean given Acno doesn't have a Level, because he isn't a pokemon?

Calm mind will help but Kyogre won't have enough time to stack them to max given he is being hit with hundreds of attacks stronger than him which is going to hurt alot and could easily grant Acno the win here. Kyogre's attacks will do basically chip damage even with calm mind stacked, due to having insane defense due to dragon scales.

 

[SamanPatou]

The difference in strength between the two isn't enough to do "massive damage" and not every single attack covers a gigantic area.
And Kyogre will not stand still taking damage like nothing. Raising both attack and defense while lowering Acno's stats is also possible.
Kyogre fought with Groudon for days, even though both were weaker than Acno, the difference isn't big enough to say that Kyogre goes down in few shots.
Status effects are also to be taken in account in the realm of possibilites.
I don't know about Sheer Cold, levels are clearly a game mechanic to express the strength of the Pokemon.
I took a look, and in the anime Kyogre performed Sheer Cold on Groudon, freezing it in place temporarily and the move was portraied as a spanning energy field that froze the surrounding.

 

[Zackra1799]

Sure the AP gap isn't that much but because of the small size of the arena they are fighting in, almost all for the attacks are guaranteed to hit given Acno's aoe spans that much space.
I'm not talking about a difference in power here, I'm talking about the amount of attacks he would be taking here. Getting hit with even 10+ attacks stronger than you can be devastating let alone 100+ attacks. Also even if Kyogre goes for rest, that's basically a death sentence as he can't even attempt to dodge at that point and would easily be overwhelmed with the massive volley of attacks.

If Sheer cold is based off strength than if fails as Acno is physically stronger than Kyogre as well.

 

[Stupits]

Hmm Honestly I think Kyogre just has to stall for one day and the water level should rise to at least 50 meters if not more. And from what im seeing Kyogre can last for a day. As for whether or not acnologia can vaporize the lake yah i guess he can but doesnt Kyogre have a defense for that?

 

[Stupits]

Another thing is sheer cold counted as hax or is it an ap thing

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sheer Cold is just ABZ hax

 

[SamanPatou]

The small area affects Acnologia too, since it will be hit more easily.
Sheer Cold is depicted as a spanning aura that freezes anything, and Acno doesn't resist absolute zero.
I agree that rest isn't the best of the tactis, but Kyogre can still endure many hits, while buffing, healing and possibly lowering lowering Acno's stats.
The rain also passively boosts Kyogre's water attacks.
Confusion, freezing and paralysis are also things that can happen.
Kyogre can also freely control water, so the lake itself is a weapon.
Acno is durable, yes, but that doesn't mean he is invulnerable (and absolute zero bypasses it).
They both will hit each other many times, but overall I still vote Kyogre.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

This is a tricky one. AOE Spam is a huge problem, but Kyogre does have a bunch of Stat Buffs and Nerfs it can use to level the Playing Field. Pretty sure Kyogre also has a Speed Buff at his Disposal unless I'm misremembering something.

 

[Zackra1799]

Acnologia can tank his own attacks as they are magic, which he heavily resists.

What's the range of Sheer Cold? As if it's an AOE aura like you mentioned than he might just oneshot the Tourney if nobody has enough space to dodge it.

 

[SamanPatou]

The only speed buff Kyogre has comes from Ancient Power, which has a small chance to raise every statistic, but it can lower Acno's speed with Scary Face

At 9:05 there's an example of how Kyogre uses Sheer Cold

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It’s less speed buffs and more speed debuffs. Scary Face lowers the opponents speed by two stages.

 

[Epiccheev]

That's a pretty big AOE, guess i'll vote Kyogre for now

 

[J.J._Chambers]

Kyogre FRA

 

[Stupits]

I mean as all pokemon moves work the Freeze is temporary so it isn’t a oneshot. Also am I allowed to vote if it isnt my character?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sheer Cold isn’t temporary. Only reason Groudon broke out without being an ice type or having Sturdy is because it’s basically sun god

 

[Stupits]

Sheer Cold isn’t temporary. Only reason Groudon broke out without being an ice type or having Sturdy is because it’s basically sun god

seriously? well then kyogre destroys most of the competition. Or can it be broken by ap?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It’s absolute zero so no, AP won’t help you. Basically the best way is to get out of range, find some way to avoid it (intangibility or forcefields), Lill the user before they do it (which tbh is easy given Kyogre is more of a water spammer) or resist it. Unlike the games, it doesn’t have 30% accuracy.

 

[Stupits]

It’s absolute zero so no, AP won’t help you. Basically the best way is to get out of range, find some way to avoid it (intangibility or forcefields), Lill the user before they do it (which tbh is easy given Kyogre is more of a water spammer) or resist it. Unlike the games, it doesn’t have 30% accuracy.

the real question is how big is the range?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What you see in the vid

 

[Stupits]

well i need meters