Hatou Manabu Revisions

[Betaredex]

I cleaned up some of the wording on the page for Manabu: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Betaredex/Hatou_Manabu

- Used her given name (Manabu) rather than her family name (Hatou)

- Changed the wording on the description of her abilities

- Added an origin section

As for the tier discussion I've made my opinion pretty clear (i.e. that she's 2-A via hax). It doesn't make much sense to me that her range is 2-A yet her tier is 2-C, given that her control over alternate possibilities is completely defined by the extent of what she can observe. Cal brought up that https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Serge_(Chrono_Cross) does a similar thing to Manabu in another thread and I'm interested as to what the differences between him and Manabu are.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Thanks for this, man. You did a good job.

 

[RM97]

She should be 2-A via Hax

I vaguely remember that she was also able to transcend Theory of Everything to the point where she states that even higher beings cannot observe her. I think if this would grant her Type 5 Acausality, Resistance to Higher Dimensional Manipulation, Quantum Manipulation, and Probability Manipulation since the verse deals with wave function collapse and treats it as a casual thing for Hatou.

 

[Betaredex]

The main reason I view the "alternate possibilities" as distinct universes is that they have different physical laws (magic being possible, for instance.) At that point it kinda surpasses probability manipulation.

 

[Betaredex]

@RM97 I'm pretty sure she said the opposite, that learning the theory of everything led to a new theory of everything outside of the first, and therefore she could never fully escape being observed (otherwise she'd probably have 1-A durability or something). She just escaped observation from everyone in the universe that is defined by the theory of everything. Not to mention, Yukari manages to observe Manabu since her qualia is outside of the theory of everything.

 

[RM97]

Yes but what I meant was precisely that. She transcended the Theory of Everything that Alice was able to find out which governed the Universes. She said that the Universe is contained in a catbox which is further contained in higher boxes which she collapsed. She also states in Chapter 17 that she is completely free from the shackles of observation and doesn't even exist in the reality even as a mere possibility.

 

[Betaredex]

https://s2.********.org/data/18ae6ff106e7e6974d7dab024de84d04/x3.jpg It says that she went beyond the limits of HUMAN observation, and that she's hidden herself from the recognizable universe. I don't think that allows her to escape observation from beings that exist beyond the ToE/universe (like Yukari's qualia does.)

 

[Betaredex]

Agreed on Acausality though.

 

[RM97]

Well human observations does define the Reality in MNQ verse but it's cool. She'll get Acausality Type 5 as well as Subjective Reality and Resistances to Quantum Manipulation and Probability Manipulation.

Also this is funny but Hatou has a powerful Powernull, Quantum Manipulation, and Probability Manipulation that worked on her Type 5 Acausal self collapsing infinite possibilities into one. We just need to know how far up in 2-A is her Hax. Iirc it was mentioned that there's infinite possibilities for everyone but I'm not too sure.

 

[Betaredex]

Quick question: how should I format it if I want two powers to have the same justification?

 

[RM97]

Just write the powers with a bracket. For example:

Quantum Manipulation and Probability Manipulation (Hatou has complete control over the Theory of Everything allowing her to use the principles of Wave Function Collapse to observe anything including all of the Infinite possibilities)

 

[Betaredex]

I'd say that Subjective Reality is moreso a subset of Reality Warping, and not a kind of Reality Warping that Manabu really does. She's not making unreal things real or real things unreal since all the possibilities are just as real as each other.

 

[Betaredex]

Just reorganized the Powers and Abilities section again, you can go take another look. Going to put her as 2-A on my page until any arguments are made to the alternative.

 

[RM97]

Why is she High 2-A? Afaik she didn't affect any 5D structure

And she honestly should get Subjective Reality since while all the possiblities are present to her as real, they are as unreal to everyone in the universe like having superpowers or magic. Plus she even made herself Non-existent completely by removing herself from the shackles of reality and TOE which also falls under Subjective Reality.

 

[Betaredex]

I'd assume she could affect an uncountably infinite number of possibilities, which would be a 5-d space

I don't much care about the Subjective Reality part, I personally didn't feel like it properly described how her powers work, but I'm fine with it being there

 

[RM97]

Uncountably infinite number of possibilities is very high in the 2-A tier, not High 2-A.

 

[Betaredex]

From the tiering system page: Multiverse level+: Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. Take note that the universes are technically lined up along a 5-dimensional axis, but that their geometrical size still amounts to 0 within this scale. High Multiverse level+: Characters who are 5-dimensional, and/or can destroy and/or create 5-dimensional space-time constructs of a not insignificant size. Characters who can destroy and/or create an uncountably infinite numbers of universes may potentially also be assigned this tier, as their geometrical 5-D size can be higher than 0.

Are you confusing countably infinite with uncountably infinite?

 

[TheSpeedster96]

Doesn't the LN state that a single parallel world creates infinite possibilities in which more branch off infinitely? I don't see why that wouldn't be a 5D structure.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

That's very clearly 5D

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Doesn't the LN state that a single parallel world creates infinite possibilities in which more branch off infinitely? I don't see why that wouldn't be a 5D structure.

that is just 2A.You can`t jump dimensions by stacking infinities

 

[Betaredex]

An uncountably infinite collection of N-dimensional objects is N+1-dimensional. If we're assuming the "possibilities" to be distinct 4-dimensional universes, then a collection of an uncountably infinite number of them is certainly 5-d. It's not about the fact that every parallel world has more branches. In fact, that would merely be a countably infinite number of parallel worlds.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

^ This

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I agree to 5D.

 

[Betaredex]

Bump

 

[Betaredex]

First of all I'd like to say that my motivation in creating this thread was not initially to move Manabu to High 2-A. I noticed that there had been a revision thread I hadn't participated in and I found the descriptions on her abilities to be rather vague and poorly worded. Regardless of the decision on her tier, I'd appreciate that those changes be reviewed as well.

Now I'll present my argument for Manabu being High 2-A. First off, it's important to understand that the entire Qualia-verse is acausal. In Qualia, reality is defined by an observer's perception of reality (or their qualia, if you will.) After learning the ToE, Manabu can understand the qualia of everyone contained in the system defined by the ToE. Through this discovery, she can observe (and thereby define) the scope of the ToE without being observed (and defined) by anyone within that scope. Now that Manabu is the only one capable of observing this system, she can define it however she wants, which is equivalent to Reality Warping on the scale of the ToE. So, what exactly is the scope of the ToE? It accomodates an uncountably infinite number of possible universes. These are NOT the possible states of one universe, since some have different laws of physics (e.g. the magical girl one.) These universes all have (at least) three spatial dimensions and a temporal dimension, making them 4-D. Since Manabu can observe an uncountably infinite number of possible universes, we can conclude that the ToE encompasses at least a 5-D structure.

This approach addresses two of the main criticisms of High 2-A Manabu: 1. "She doesn't destroy/create universes through her own power" Destruction and creation both require causality, since they're the movement from a state of being to a state of unbeing (and vice versa.) Reality Warping on a 5-D scale is pretty much equivalent to that idea. 2. "The possiblities aren't a 5-D structure, they're just a superposition" The pssibilities exhibit alternative physical laws, and therefore are possible timelines of an alternate universe. Manabu is shown to be able to observe (and thereby "create") any universe with arbitrary laws of her choosing, which there would be an uncountably infinite number of.

 

[Betaredex]

@Cal @CP @Ant I'd appreciate review of my reasoning.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have not read it, I have just seen and argued over some scans in a CRT a while back. What I have seen in those best fit the unknown tier.


I think it would be good if you post scans regarding the things you state, as otherwise your interpretations can not be checked by the general public (e.g. me).

Btw. is this based just on the manga or also the novel?

 

[Betaredex]

My bad, I assumed you had read it during the previous thread. It's a bit tricky to find single scans to use as evidence, since a lot of it requires context. You can read it if you're interested though. It's only 18 chapters: https://********.org/title/9114/qualia-the-purple

Just the manga (though I have read the novel; the manga is a very faithful adaptation so I wouldn't worry about that.)

 

[RM97]

As much as I'd like High 2-A Hatou, there's a couple of things I want to say. First off, I don't really remember where it was stated that the verse has an Uncountably Infinite number of Universes. Just that there's an infinite number of Universes with newer ones branching off. Though my memory is vague on that. Secondly, I don't this this wiki would accept 5D just based off that statement unless there really is a statement that says she's 5D. Iirc the whole "Uncountably Infinite number of Universes = 5D" was revised and now it requires a solid statement of being 5D/being beyond all of Time and Space to be a 5D rather than stacking something as Setsuna said above. Otherwise there's characters who are Countlessly above 2-A tier like Master Unit: Amaterasu or many characters from Shin Megami Tensei and yet they aren't High 2-A.


I'd like to comment on a couple of stuffs in the blog:

1) Acausality Types 2 & 3 are missing though those are for her human form key so it's not necessary

2) Information Analysis and Manipulation is not present and Hatou has shown both. Dunno if Nigh-Omniscience covers Info analysis or not but Info Manip was when she outright rewrote her parameters completely to become a Non-existent entity that doesn't even exist as a probability

3) Speaking of Non-existence, she should be just Type 1 Nonexistent Physiology rather than Type 2. Because type 2 is for characters who are Transdual in nature and are literal void lacking a concept itself such as Padomay and The Numidium. Hatou did become a Non-existent entity who ceased to exist even as a possibility and from the shackles of all of human observations but she still exists as a Concept. If she was Type 2 Non-existent then not even Mari would have been able to observe her.

4) Time Travel and Memory Absorption is missing since she can travel back in time and absorb someone's memory by becoming them.

 

[Betaredex]

Alright, I wasn't aware that was how High 2-A was defined. I'm fine with 2-A if that describes her better. Agreed on the other points, I'll update my page tomorrow.

 

[Betaredex]

I assumed it would be an uncountably infinite number since theoretically there are an uncountably infinite number of ways you can manipulate the laws of the universe. My reservation with regards to that is that it's never actually explored.

 

[Betaredex]

Actually, time travel would fall under time manipulation. I felt like what she did when redefining herself out of the universe was more akin to Law Manipulation but it could fall under Information Manipulation as well.

 

[Betaredex]

Updated the page.

 

[RM97]

Looks great.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that the page seems fine, but DontTalkDT usually has a better sense of judgement than I do, so it depends on what he thinks.

 

[First_Witch]

I recently finished the manga but im not sure on 2A Hatou. What i saw made me believe that 2B is more appropiate, due to the countless worlds and possibiltys she collapsed and erased. Mind giving me the scan that states that she collapsed the entire multiverse? Maybe its physican thing, something that isnt my field of expertise.

The ability section looks great and i agree with all of them. We may need to write a cosmology blog for the series though, as its a big pile of Quantum Physic jumbo, to accuratly get a Tier for her.

 

[RM97]

It's 2-A considering there's multiple statements throughout the manga where Hatou refers to the possibilities as Infinite and Endless as well as her alternate versions as "Infinite Armies" of herself

 

[First_Witch]

Im perfectly aware of that. I want a scan that specificly states that she collapsed an infinite amount in the first place.

 

[Betaredex]

If there's only one universe remaining, doesn't that mean that the superposition of all the other possibilities was collapsed? Regardless, she can still manipulate every possibility through observation.

 

[Betaredex]

I'm unsure what would prompt a 2-B rating. Whether you interpret the collapse of the superposition as an indication of AP or not, there's nothing that suggests that she'd be limited to a finite number of universes (which is what 2-B is).