Hatou Manabu: 2-A to High 1-C

[Promestein]

That's not Type 5

I also agree with CP

 

[Betaredex]

@Promestein Does type 5 refer to not existing on a conceptual level? If so, then it doesn't apply. However, Manabu has observed realities in which she doesn't exist, so I thought the wording fit. She certainly can be killed on a 5-d level.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Hatou merely exists in everyone of the infinite universes, she basically has a version of herself in each universe, but the same can be said for everyone in the series though, the only difference is that the versions of herself can share information with each other, that's not 5-D.

And she merely observes an entire universe, which as a byproduct cause all the possibilities of the universe to become definite which is of no result due to her own power but merely that observation=indeterminate infinite possibilities collapse into a single define thing.

 

[Betaredex]

That's incorrect. She said that by learning the ToE and becoming the first observer, her consciousness exists in a state beyond the normal universe. Again, I refer to Manabu's consciousness, not any of the versions of Manabu nor of the people she possessed. The information isn't shared in a normal fashion, it's because every version of Manabu shares this consciousness (recall how she mentioned that she gained the memories of her altermate self after calling them, without needing to verbally discuss anything).

 

[Betaredex]

Plus, Manabu observes worlds without existing in them; ones where she has no physical body. There's no manifestation of Manabu sharing information in those universes.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

She didn't become the first observer though she only went back in time and tempered with herself so she evolved into an existence which doesn't exist, thus can't be observed there could be a first observer but its irrelavant since they can't observe what doesn't exist.

How it works is all versions of herself share their knowledge with each other, but when she started becoming other people she couldn't get access to that knowledge anymore from a first hand perspective anymore but merely from a distance.

Still even if her consciousness was 5-D? I think you mean 4-D since that is what 2-A/infinite universes is, i don't think that makes her herself 4-D, only her consciousness, she has no 4-D feats of destroying or creating anything of her own power.

Pretty sure BB (Fate/Extra CCC) shares her consciousness or whatever with all the versions of herself across space-time and we don't have her as 4-D.

 

[Betaredex]

High 2-A is 5-d. I say 5-d because she can also freely move through time. Regardless of whether Manabu herself is 5-d, do you agree that the space all of her selves inhabit is 5-d by the parallel worlds interpretation? Also, the difference with BB is that BB merely exists in all possible realities and can share her consciousness between her alternate selves, whereas the universe Manabu observes becomes reality, regardless of the other possible realities.

 

[Betaredex]

Also, I think that the argument of her not being able to manipulate anything "by her own power" is flawed. For instance, a magic-wielding character manipulating mana or what have you to destroy a wall is still a wall level feat, even though the energy they harnessed isn't their own.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Infinite universes isn't 5-D, even being infinitely above infinite universes doesn't make you 5-D.

Hatou still doesn't destroy the infinite universes of her own power as i have been saying, the universe is indeterminate, it exists as a cloud of possibilities, observing it causes it to collapse into something definite, she isn't the one destroying it.

 

[Betaredex]

A possibility cloud is equivalent to infinite 4-d space-time continuums, which is 5-d. They're one and the same.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Infinite 4-D space-time continuums isn't 5-D, and again hatou isn't the one destroying anything.

 

[Betaredex]

In that case, theres something I'm clearly misunderstanding about the tiering system. From my understanding, 5-d space consists of A x B x C x D x E where x is the Euclidean product and A is a set bijective with the reals. In the case of infinite 4-d space-time continuums, A is the set of possible length values, B is the set of possible width values, C is the set of possible depth values, D is the set of possible temporal values, and E is an identifier for each 4-d space (which clearly has greater or equal cardinality to the reals.)

 

[Betaredex]

As for destroying the alternate realities, Manabu is causing their destruction through the physical laws of her world, i.e. that observation dictates reality. This is the same as any other exertion of power, see my example with a magic user above. Utilizing universal laws to manipulate some form of energy is equivalent to exerting that energy on one's own.

 

[Betaredex]

I should've clarified, I meant uncountably infinite 4-d space-time continuums.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

She is not doing anything of her own power, comparing what she does to a magic user using mana to destroy a wall is fallacious.

Observation=possibilities becoming definite, the universe itself is a cloud of possibilities, observe the universe, the cloud of possibilities that is the universe, becomes definite.

Hatou's series operates by specific rules, her entire existence along with everyone else in the universe is probabilistic just like the cat in the box, therefore observing this probabilistic universe causes it to become definite, this isn't equivalent to manipulating an energy source to then destroy a wall, this is literally like the wall destroys itself due to some specific traits inherent to the wall.

And have no idea where you're getting uncountably infinite 4-D space-time continuum's from when all has been established in this series is infinite universes.

 

[Betaredex]

But the superposition collapsing is caused by Manabu. It isn't like the universe assumed a state on its own. It's been shown that she can manipulate reality in her observation freely. I would think that there are an uncountably infinite number of ways of doing so.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Celestial Pegasus makes sense. Feel free to modify the profile so it turns more accurate.

 

[Embodiment_Of_Lies]

@Celestial I'm pretty sumre the verse runs on Quantum mechanics