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Hatou Manabu: 2-A to High 1-C

A few months ago, shortly after discovering this wiki, I decided to create a page for Hatou Manabu, the protagonist of Murasakiiro no Qualia. Since at that point I wasn't familiar enough with the tiering system, my first attempt was exceedingly misinformed. My article was temporarily taken down, and we had a lengthy discussion in this thread where we ended up agreeing that her tier should be "Unknown". However, after revisiting some of my previous research, I'd like to try to clear up what spot on the tier list I think Manabu should inhabit.

One argument brought up in the thread was that Manabu never exerts enough force to destroy higher-dimensional constructs, nor does she physically exist. However, Manabu's abilities are heavily based off quantum physics, namely the idea that observation collapses a superposition of states. Because of this, someone being able to observe a higher dimensional system implies they can interact with that system, since observation is a form of interaction. This in turn implies that they exist on the same dimensional level as that system.

At a glance Manabu would seem to be 5-d, since she can observe infinite different parallel universes at any point in time. However, I'd argue that after coming into contact with the Theory of Everything (hereafter referred to as the ToE) she should be considered 11-d. After discovering the ToE, Manabu becomes able to expand the scope of her observation. The ToE is implied to encompass the multiverse of Qualia in its totality: "The four forces that hold the universe together: strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravitational force... Unified into one. The absolute culmination of physics." (Source). In the Tiering System page, it is explicitly stated that VS Battles Wiki considers a complete multiverse to be 11-d: "The M-Theory defines the sum totality of an entire multiverse, with all higher dimensions included, as a 10 to 11-dimensional structure. We follow the convention of a complete multiverse being 11-dimensional." While some of M-Theory's analogues utilize a fewer number of dimensions to explain string theory concepts, since M-Theory is the standard, and the series clearly displays that theoretical physics is consistent in the Qualia multiverse, I consider the scope of Manabu's observation to be 11-d.

For these reasons, I put Manabu as 2-A prior to learning the ToE, and High 1-C afterwards.

Here's the link to my version of the article: User_blog:Betaredex/Hatou_Manabu

Feel free to ask about the reasoning for other sections of the edited page here as well. It would be rather annoying to list the rationale for all of them here, especially when a lot of them were covered in the previous thread.
 
Maybe you could invite the people who took part in the previous thread to this discussion.
 
Speed should not be "non-applicable", it just means it's not measurable by conventional means. Even if she's not manifested physically, in a way she can not be observed.
 
Don't agree with putting manabu at 2-A prior to learning the theory of everything, she never shows any 2-A feats, what she does is that she is connected with all the infinite versions of herself and can become them.

After learning the theory of everything though, don't agree with High 1-C either, nothing is ever said about higher dimensions, that would just be an assumption.

Manabu simply became the first observer, which caused the probabilistic nature of the universe in which there are infinite possibilities, to only be one, a wavefunction collapse as she calls it. But to be able to oberseve such a thing as an entire universe does entail her existence being greater than that a universe. So i guess a Low 2-C rating could probably work, actually since the universe itself is in a box like the cat in schodinger's cat, and there is a further box above that, and another and so on, 2-C is more appropriate.
 
Actually disregard what i said, the universe is like the cat in schrodinger's cat, it has infinite possibilities, hence infinite universes, hatou became able to observe all those, and above those infinite possibilities is another box, and then another, and another, and it's cause she observed all that, that they all collapsed into single one, so At least 2-A works best here.

Might be even higher as like the cat in the box, the universe is in a box and exists as infinite possibilities, above that box is another box so more infinite possibilities, and another box, and another, and hatou can observe all those boxes hmm....

Actually i think High 1-C isn't that far fetched looking at it like this.
 
Maybe but that's speculative, we do know there are like 2 more boxes above the box with the universe however.
 
@Celestial Yeah, that was my reasoning for putting her at "potentially 1-B" back in the old thread IIRC. I decided against it here because it seemed too far-fetched and wasn't discussed in detail during the manga. In my opinion however, the scope of her observation should definitely be considered as her dimensional scale, since its explained in detail how her observation allows her to manipulate the state of whatever she's observing. For the record, that's certainly 5-d prior to learning the ToE, since she can travel through 3-d space, time, and an uncountably infinite number of alternate possibilities.

@ProspectX Didn't know how Omnipresence was defined here (and concerning Manabu the definition probably becomes pretty vague.) Speed: Non-applicable also makes sense though.
 
Speed is always applicable, especially in quantum mechanics. This wiki either uses, immeasurable, or omnipresent to define higher-dimensions.

"Irrelevant", or "non-applicable" would be way beyond the concept of dimensions themselves.
 
Ah, my bad. I misread your comment and thought you were advocating for it being non-applicable. EDIT: Just changed them all to immeasurable instead.
 
By the way Celestial, I'm kind of unsure which part of my argument you're objecting to. Are you trying to say that the scope of Manabu's observation isn't 5-d/11-d, or that her level of observation doesn't define her tier?
 
I am saying there are no statements of higher dimensions in the series, that's merely your assumption, and we need iron clad proof.
 
Manabu, after accepting the superposition, can observe an infinite number of alternate realities, and can communicate with her alternate selves in these realities (it's stated repeatedly that there are an infinite number of these.) Each of these alternate selves exist in a three dimensional system, since they are human. At this point, since she still can't manipulate time, but can manipulate an infinite number of 3-d systems (by proxy), she can manipulate a 4-d system.

Then, she learns that she can communicate with her alternate selves at any point in time (she communicated with that 'magical girl' self, for instance). This means that the alternate selves she can communicate with now exist throught a 5-dimensional system: 3 spatial dimensions, time, and throughout all parallel universes.
 
Hell, she's even shown to be able to DESTROY a 4-dimensional system. Look at this page: https://u.teknik.io/VsSBL.png

Before anyone mentions that she may be just ceasing observation of that particular timeline, I'd like to remind you that Qualia functions on the anthropic principle: https://u.teknik.io/NKC2U.jpg. This means that her ceasing observation of that system is equivalent to the system never existing in the first place. Incidentally, this is also a major piece of evidence for being able to destroy a 5-d system, since she can simply cease observation of all of alternate realities and collapse the superposition.
 
Lastly, I'd like to change my claim from her being 2-A to her being High 2-A. I had simply misread the tier descriptions, she should be High 2-A for being 5-d. I'm changing my article now.
 
That's not proof of her being 11-D, again nothing was said about higher dimensions, and being able to communicate with infinite versions of yourself doesn't make you 5-D.

But as i have already said, her being able to observe the entire universe, and surpassing the limits of human observe, does entail her existence being higher dimensional, i just don't agree with the 11-D stuff.

Her powers are really specific to her verse, the reason the infinite universes collapsed was cause she was able to observe the entire universe, hence the possibilities of the universe which there are infinite, collapsed into one, so thinking about it, it's not her doing anything but just a byproduct of how the world works.

The universe itself is like the cat in schrodinger's cat, and above it is another box, so even if you became able to observer to the entire universe, there would be another observer above you, and another above that person.

Being an observer doesn't mean they can destroy like infinite universes, it simple means their observation, hence i would argue their existence is beyond that of the thing they are observing, the collapsing of the possibilities is a byproduct of how the world works, not due to the observers power.

After rethinking it, i am going along the lines of what i originally suggested, hatou should be Low 2-C, as she became able to observe an entire universe, however to counter the other observers above her, she became non-existent so she couldn't be observed.
 
As for High 1-C, it's strongly implied that the ToE encompasses the entire multiverse (since the theoretical physics of Manabu's multiverse line up with our own.) The tiering system states the sum totality of a multiverse to be 11-d. By learning the ToE, Manabu can observe everything encompassed by it: https://u.teknik.io/zE200.jpg. By becoming the first person to observe the multiverse, Manabu can bring herself outside the perception of everything in the multiverse (which is High 1-C reality warping). Finally, by ceasing this observation, Manabu implicitly destroys an 11-d system via the anthropic principle.
 
Read my previous reply, you have no proof ToE makes her higher dimensional only assumptions, and manabu simply observed her universe which caused the infinite possibilities that it has to collapse, like the cat in schrodinger's cat it both exists and doesn't exists, and there are infinite possibilities as a result, the universe has never been observed so it has those infinite possibilities, hence infinite universe, observing the universe means it becomes definite, just like opening the box of the cat will make it become definite whether the cat is either dead or alive, exists or doesn't exist, manabu caused the infinite universes to collapse due to observing the universe, it's not due to her power. And she became nonexistent, so that no one could observe her, it doesn't matter if there are other observers above her, they can't observe what doesn't exist.

If you don't have any proof that explicitly says ToE encompasses higher dimensions or something and not just assumptions, then we can't accept it.
 
Alright. I don't have any evidence of the ToE encompassing the multiverse other than how it corresponds to M-Theory.

I do stand by my claim that she's at least High 2-C, however. The space her consciousness exists in is clearly shown to be at least 5-d.
 
She can share her consciousness with the infinite versions of herself, as they are all connected basically, and know everything they know, see what they see etc, but that doesn't make her 2-A, just gives her a sort of omnipresence since she exists in infinite universes.

But since all those infinite universes were collapsed into one due to her learning ToE, she no longer exists in infinite universes, only one since there is only one universe, and after learning ToE only the hatou from that universe existed, i question whether hatou could possess people l as she did before as she had a hard time taking over the manabu from that universe, and needed yukari's help.

In short her speed should be unknown, after learning ToE, nigh omnipresent before learning ToE due to being connected with all infinite versions of herself, and being able to posess ppl i guess.
 
From my understanding the superposition didn't collapse until she smashed the window. I'm not sure though. For now, I'll just remove the ToE stuff.
 
Completely forgot about this thread.

I think there are two points of misunderstanding here. First of all, Manabu doesn't have to be able to move through five spatial dimensions or be able to destroy a five dimensional system to be considered 5-d being. What makes the dimensional tiering system so versatile is that it can apply to non-spatial dimensions. If it didn't, all non-corporeal characters would end up as 0-dimensional.

Secondly, I'm arguing that Manabu's CONSCIOUSNESS exists in a 5-d system, not Manabu herself. The fact that Manabu does not physically exist is no reason to discredit the evidence for her being able to (abstractly) manipulate a 5-dimensional system. I argue that Manabu observing various realities is analogous to movement through this system. Each reality is 3-dimensional, and she can freely observe that any point in that reality (see the hospital bed scene; Manabu observed Yukari without possessing anyone.) She can also view any point in time, and an infinite number of possible realities. Manabu killing an alternate version of herself is akin to destroying a 4-dimensional system because Manabu's observation literally governs reality. Without Manabu observing a timeline, that timeline ceases to exist (or, because Manabu is beyond the concept of time, it never existed in the first place.)
 
For lifting strength and striking strength I wrote 'Immeasurable' because of ProspectX's comments. I wanted to emphasize that her non-corporeality prevents her from having a definable Striking Strength/Lifting Strength. Durability is Multiverse+ because the only way to destroy her would be to destroy the 5-d system she inhabits.

I assumed she was High 2-A because she can move freely through a 5-dimensional system, which I thought meant she was 5-d. If physical size is a requirement for that term, though, 2-A sounds good.
 
Is the only way to destroy her to destroy an infinite multiverse? If so, I can change her durability.
 
Well, simply having a normal human body in infinite universes is hard to properly quantify.
 
Since I saw it and this thread is as good as any, why does she have Type 5 immortality with that explanation...?
 
>Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed. Typically, abilities such as Existence Erasure are needed to destroy them.

Manabu's physical body has died in many alternate realities. If she does die she can simply observe a universe where she didn't die, and that becomes 'reality'.
 
Hatou shouldn't be 2-A, already been over this, she can't destroy universes on her own, she merely makes the infinite possibilities of the the universe collapse into one by observing the universe.

The universe is like the cat in Schrodinger's box, there are an infinite amount of possibilities for it, observing the box, in this case the universe, makes those possibilities collapse into a single one, in the case of the cat it is dead, or that it is alive, in the case of the universe that there is only one universe.
 
My point is that having an infinite number of universes is analogous to an infinite number of possibilities. It was stated repeatedly that the parallel worlds theory is equivalent to the wave function representation.
 
Still not hatou who is destroying anything on her own, it's simply that observation=things becoming definte in this series.

She isn't destroying universe of her own power, things exist in an indeterminate state, hence infinite possibilities, infinite universes, observe the universe and that all collapses into one, becoming definte.
 
Regardless of her destructive capabilities, she exists on a 5-dimensional level. Additionally, I feel like "destruction" isn't very well defined in this context (especially with acausality/non-corporeality in the mix.) Because of her acausal nature, destruction isn't as simple as something existing and then existing anymore. At the very least, her ability can affect a 5-dimensional system and she can observe it in its entirety, somethong a 4-dimensional being would not be capable of.
 
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