Hashirama upgrade

[Lina_Shields]

I have to revise the calc first before I get things settled, but there is a specific image that I would like you guys to see first before I finalize the calculation.

Will post that image soon.

Edit: Well, in the calc blog, there are two scenarios for this situation. Here is a picture of Bijuudama crossing the sea.

• The size of the wake at the end is 5px shown in the picture.
• The size of the wake at the end is 1px, as the Bijuudama travelled even further after reaching the end of the sea.

Picture 1

Picture 2

Also, would that explosion be an airburst, or a fireball?

Keep in mind that if this explosion is an airburst we would have to revise the Bijuu Mode Naruto's Bijuu bomb calculation as well.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"They maintained a similar distance from eachother throughout the unknown time-frame is all that I can conclude from looking at the PX scalings in both scans."

What you are arguing is that because the bijudama moved an extra unknown distance when Hashirama summoned the gates that the calc is false correct? However that arugument is false.

Before Hashirama used the gates, the distance between him and the BB was 40.12 m. After he summoned the gates, the bijudama had traveled a bit of distance and the distance between Hashirama and the BB had lessened to 34.5 meters.

That means that during that small timeframe that we can't account for when Hashirama summoned the gates (Which is your arugument on why the calc is false) the bijudama only moved a total of 5.62 meters during that timeframe.

Hashirma outsped the BB, and summoned the gates, in the same timeframe the BB traveled less than 6 meters.

 

[CinCameron20]

See? You just proved my point. The distance both moved is unknown before Hashirama summoned the gates and therefore you can't suggest he is 7+ times faster than it with NOTHING TO BACK THAT UP. Their distance was consistent by the time we see the BB again.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

How did I prove your point? Your arguing that because of the unknown distance it traveled when Hashriama summoned the gates, that the calc is false correct?

However by comparing the distance between Hashirama and the BB before and after he summoned the gates you can see how much extra distance the BB traveled. Which is less than 6 meters total. That makes Hashirama 7.8 times faster .

 

[CinCameron20]

LOL? then where is the distance Hashirama traveled?

You're completely unaware of what you're suggesting. You seem to be saying that Hashirama stood still, summoned the gates before the bomb could travel 6 meters, and say that Hashirama moves faster because of the gates rising from the ground (which were already almost completely summoned by the time we see the BB again) while the bomb traveled an unknown distance.

Can everyone else please tell me that they see what's so wrong now? This is making a LOT of assumptions on travel distance when it was off-panel.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"LOL? then were is the distance Hashirama traveled?"

Hashirama was on the other side of the gates.

" Hashirama stood still, summoned the gates before the bomb could travel 6 meters"

I'm saying that before Hashirama summoned the gates, the distance between him and the BB was 40.12 meters and after he summoned the gates (And Hashirama is on the other side of the gates) the distance had lessened to 34.5 meters. That means that in the timeframe that Hashirama outsped the BB, summoned the gates, and the gates reached the BB, the BB hadn't even traveled a total of 6 meters.

"This is making a LOT of assumptions on travel distance when it was off-panel."

How is it an assumption to compare the distance between Hashirama and the BB before and after the gates went up to see how far the BB traveled ?

 

[CinCameron20]

If the distance lessened, that clearly means that Hashirama is slower than the BB. You're soooooooo ridiculous.

You're also making assumptions on the BB travel distance when you're basing it off of the gates and ignore the fast tht Hashirama ran for an unknown time-frame before summoning the gates.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"If the distance lessened, that clearly means that Hashirama is slower than the BB"

The speed feat here is that Hashirama outran the BB and summoned the gates. Before the gates were up the BB was 40.12 m away, and after Hashirama summoned the gates, the BB was still 34.5 meters from him.

Your trying to say that Hashirama is slower? But that's not possible because Hashirama outran the BB and put the gates up in the same timeframe the BB traveled 5.62 meters.

That is a clear speed feat.

"You're also making assumptions on the BB travel distance when you're basing it off of the gates"

I'm not basing it off the gates. I'm basing the BB travel distance on the starting and ending distance between Hashirama and the BB. The only reason the gates are used is because Hashirama is on the other side of them from the BB.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Keep in mind that the Rashomon is a defensive summoning technique used to block oncoming attacks, such as Kyubi Bombs and Bijuudama.

There would be no point in using a defensive technique if the user is required to be in front/sides of the gates, as the gates are primarily used as a shield. This technique would be meaningless if the gates were summoned at a location other than in front of the user, as it would not serve its main purpose otherwise.

The scenario goes:

• Madara charges up Bijuudama and aims at Hashirama.
• Hashirama goes to a specific spot and summons 4 gates.
• The Bijuudama gets bounced off the gates and changes its trajectory.

This would mean that when the 4 gates were summoned, the only position that Hashirama was at relative to the four gates was behind it, meaning that by the time Madara's Bijuudama was shown here in this scan, Hashirama was behind the four gates.


There is also another scene where the Rashomon gates were summoned (by Orochimaru), and they were used to shield the incoming blast that the Tailed Beast mode charged up. I have provided the scans shown here:


Naruto's BB is fired

Orochimaru summons Rashomon as a shield

Rashomon gates tank blast

I agree with SwordSlayer, although the feat is going to have to be recalculated.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Has the rest of the calculation group been contacted to take a look at this?

In any case, CinCameron20, I would appreciate if you try to stay civil towards SwordSlayer99. Saying that he is ridiculous is not acceptable.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I have messaged the calculation ground members to check out this thread. They should be here soon.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Mm. Lina your analysis is a bit off.

1. Hashirama was not trying to tank the hit with the gates, he was trying to deflect it and change it's trajectory. standing behind it would be meaningless here

2. Orochimaru did try tank Narutos attack hence he stood behind it.

Comparing the two and assuming Hashirama did the same is just speculation, at worst.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"1. Hashirama was not trying to tank the hit with the gates, he was trying to deflect it and change it's trajectory. standing behind it would be meaningless here"

In this scan here we can see Hashirama outsped the BB,land on the ground, and turn around and then Hashirama faces towards the BB and uses the summing jutsu. That's proof that Hashirama is behind the gates, as Hashirama summins the gates when he is facing towards the BB.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Blog to Bijuudama's revised speed here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Lina_Shields/Kyuubi_Bijuudama_Calc_Revised

@LA: Keep in mind that that Madara was aiming the Bijuudama towards Hashirama here. If Hashirama would have stood anywhere other than behind the gate when the gates were summoned, this would mean that Madara was purposely aiming for the land somewhere behind Hashirama, instead of aiming for Hashirama himself, which is not the case.

Anyways, the point here would be that even if Hashirama did stand anywhere other than behind the gate, this would still mean Hashirama was still much faster than the Bijuudama that was fired.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Lina - (before I talk about your calc since I'm still arguing against MHS+ Hashirama) there is no time-frame for the time it would take for Hashirama to summon the gates.

When we see them initially, Hashirama and the BB are 40.12m from eachother in the first scan. Hashirama was clearly shown running away, and then we see Hashirama, after an unknown small window of time, use summoning to bring up the gates. If he is behind the gates while summoning them, he is still around 40~45 meters away from the Bijuu Dama in the scan before it hits them (it will be a little different now if your new speed calc for the bomb is accepted).

There is no shown travel time/distance for both Hashirama and the BB after they are shown initially and before the summoning of the gates. The time frame can only be assumed, which is why I keep suggesting that we can only say that Hashirama is at least equal to the BB in terms of speed, somewhat higher since the distance between him and the BB did increase, but there is no time-frame for that nor is there any showing of Hashirama's exact location in the 2nd scan (I already complied that he would be behind the gates, but that would still suggest that the distance between him and the bomb is similar to the initial distance when the BB was first fired).

About your calulation: Those numbers are impressive. I'm going to look at it for some time but Small Country for the High end is just crazy :O The one thing that made me very doubtful about your scaling is the size of the blast radius being 319km. We've seen quite a lot of BB, but I don't think we've seen anything even remotely close to that from any of the tailed beasts, have we?

You can disregard this bit, it isn't important

Just so you know, there were three times in the series Rashomon was used. You linked the 2nd, but here is the 1st. It was summoned by two people, but it had both of them to the side of it. Just to say that Hashirama being directly behind it isn't a set in stone.

Only point I'm making is that the suggestion that Hashirama is 7 times faster than the BB is inconsistent with the statement made by Madara, the distance between him and the BB being consistant in BOTH SCANS, and there being an unknown time-frame between the initial panel and the panel where the gates erupted from the ground. He is at least as fast as the BB, that much is certain, but he is in no way faster than it by any large degree.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"Hashirama was clearly shown running away, and then we see Hashirama, after an unknown small window of time, use summoning to bring up the gates."

After the gates were summoned the Bijudama was 34.5 meters away from the edge of the gates, where Hashirama is. And before the gates were up their was a 40.12 meter distance between them. Using the starting and ending distance between Hashirama and the BB you can see how far the BB traveled during the timeframe that Hashirama moved and summoned the gates.

That means that during that small timeframe that you talked about "running away, and then we see Hashirama, after an unknown small window of time, use summoning to bring up the gates" the Bijudama only moved 5.62 meters during that timeframe that you are talking about.

" He is at least as fast as the BB, that much is certain, but he is in no way faster than it by any large degree."

Hashirama traveled over 43 meters before the BB could travel 6 meters. He is serveral times faster than the BB.

 

[CinCameron20]

No, the BB was a few meters away from the gates, THEY covered 34meters.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

Yeah the gates covered 34 meters, and Hashirama was on the other side of the gates.

All I'm doing is getting the distance from the BB to Hashirama before the gates are up (Which is 40.12 meters)

And the distance from the BB to Hashirama (Who is on the other side of the gates) was 34.5 meters after the gates are up. That means that the BB only moved 5.62 meters total, in the timeframe that Hashirama outsped it and summoned the gates.

 

[CinCameron20]

if that's what you're suggesting, you're ignoring any time between the initial panel, and the panel where the gates are summoned.

The distance between them is 40.12 meters, that's not distance TRAVELED. I wish you'd understand.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"The distance between them is 40.12 meters, that's not distance TRAVELED. I wish you'd understand."

I do understand through. Before the gates were up the distance between Hashirama and the BB was 40.12 meters. After the gates come up, the BB is 34.5 meters away from the edge of the gates. Taking the two numbers 40.12 - 34.5 = 5.62 meters traveled total for the BB.

I understand that the 40.12 meters is not the distance traveled and that's not what I'm arguing.

I'm simply finding how far BB moved by comparing it to Hashirama's position before and after the gates come up, to find how far the BB moved in the timeframe that Hashirama moved. I'm not making an assumption.

 

[CinCameron20]

It is making an assumption:

1) There is no panel showing how far the BB was chasing Hashirama, making distance traveled unknown by the time Hashirama summons the gates.

2) The position of Hashirama being behind the gates is the best bet, but that would mean that the distance from BB and Hashirama himself, from when we see the BB again, has hardly changed and remained around 40 meters.

3) Where is Hashirama moving 43.88 meters? it is never shown. If you mean vertically (going to the ground to summon the gates), it doesn't make sense. The distance between Hashirama and the BB, as mentioned several times, remains fairly consistent from what WE ARE SHOWN.

4) Hashirama was at a full stop when he summoned the Gates. The BB "Moved 5.62 meters" after the gate was summoned, and you're saying Hashirama moved during that time frame? Where? That's a lie.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"4) Hashirama was at a full stop when he summoned the Gates. The BB "Moved 5.62 meters" after the gate was summoned, and you're saying Hashirama moved during that time frame? Where? That's a lie."

The 5.62 is the full distance moved by the BB when Hashriama was on the other side of the gates. Also where did I say that Hashriama moved after the gates were summoned?

"3) Where is Hashirama moving 43.88 meters? it is never shown"

In the original calc http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/hashirama-outspeed-a-bb.21116/ I quote "now to get the distance crossed by hashirama hashirama's height sould be the same as the BB since the BB was shot at him flutter already calced the height of the BB to be 43.88 m" The 43.88 meter comes from the height of the BB.

"2) The position of Hashirama being behind the gates is the best bet, but that would mean that the distance from BB and Hashirama himself, from when we see the BB again, has hardly changed and remained around 40 meters."

That's the speed feat through. Madara shot the BB at Hashirama and the BB was 40.12 Meters away from Hashirama. Hashirama then runs and summons the gates(And Hashirama is literally behind the gates) and the BB is 34.5 Meters away from the edge of the gates ,where Hashirama is.

"There is no panel showing how far the BB was chasing Hashirama, making distance traveled unknown by the time Hashirama summons the gates."

You can get the distance the BB traveled by seeing how far the BB traveled.

Here are the facts: Before the gates are up, the distance between them is 40.12 meters

Then in the next panel the BB is 34.5 meters from the edge of the gates, where Hashirama is.

That means that Hashriama outsped the BB, and summoned the gates in the same timeframe the BB moved 5.62 meters. How is that an assumption? I'm calcing the starting and ending distance from Hashirama and the BB to see how far the BB traveled. That's not an assumption.

 

[Antvasima]

I now think that SwordSlayer99 seems to make more sense.

 

[CinCameron20]

1) You're repeating youself about the distance BETWEEN THEM. That's irrelevant without a known distance both of them traveled from their initial spots and the distance between them before Hashirama stopped moving. It is UNKNOWN

2) If we're talking about the gates, we don't see BB's starting position when the gate STARTED coming from the ground (this is what I mean by off-panel). But we see the BB's position when the gates are ALREADY fully summoned.

3) That's discussing the height of Hashirama and the Bijuu Dama. The distance from BB to Hashirama is being ignored. As I said before, Hashirama changing his height means nothing to the distance between him and the BB. The reasoning for the calculation is invalid. Hashirama was NOT MOVING after he summoned the gates. the 5.62 meters is the distance between them being changed (and you only used horizontal distance and not the actual distance between Hashirama and BB). The presentation does not make sense.

Hashirama going downwards 43.88 meters is not relevant if the BB can maintain a direct 40 meters distance from him. That suggests that their speed is equal or close. The lack of any time-frame or travel distance does not help this calculation either. This is what I mean by assumptions. The time frame is being assumed when there isn't one in the first place.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"That's irrelevant without a known distance both of them traveled from their initial spots"

We do have a distance. Before Hashirama ran to use the gates, they're was a 40.12 meter distance between them. Then Hashirama runs over and summons the gates (The gates summoned the moment Hashirma used the jutsu) and the BB is over 34+ meters from the edge of the gates, and Hashirama is behind them. It is clear Hashriama is several times faster because he outsped the BB and summoned the gates in in the same frame the BB barely moved.

The distance between them shows how far the BB moved.

The distance was 40.12 m before the gates went up, and 34+ meters after the gates were up. That means the BB only travled 5.62 meters in the time Hashirama moved

"when the gate STARTED coming from the ground"

The gates summoned the moment Hashirama slammed his hand on the ground. The summing justu teleports things from point a to b almost instantly.

"Hashirama changing his height means nothing to the distance between him and the BB."

When the BB was fired at Hashriama they were on the same altitude (43.88 meter) and by the time Hashirama landed on the ground and summoned the gates, the BB had only moved 5.62 m. That means that Hashirama crossed over 7 times the distance the BB did .

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Actually just by knowing the initial and the final distance between the two one can figure out Hashirama's speed and IIRC the distance got bigger.Since Hashirama stopped moving before the final distance between the two is measured that would only make him faster.

 

[CinCameron20]

As I've been saying, but is clearly being ignored: There is no time-frame.

Also, the 34+meters < 40.12 meters. If Hashirama is behind them, that's literally the same distance especially with the angle the pov is.

I'm done with this topic. It is going in circles. I'm going to go discuss the latest Bleach Chapter.

 

[JingleFloor]

I agree with Kkapoios, Lina and Sword.. Hashirama is definitely faster than the BB and the Gates seeing as how he was already behind the gates and ahead of the BB waiting.

 

[Alakabamm]

....looking over this again, wouldn't this just give Hashirama MHS+ attack speed because his gates were the ones doing the movement?

 

[SwordSlayer99]

It would give him MHS+ attack speed since the gates could block the BB. But the real feat is that the BB only moved 5.62 m compared to the 40+ m covered by Hashirama, which is a massive speed feat.

 

[CinCameron20]

Hashirama didn't move 40+ m in the time it took the 5.62m for the BB.

 

[Akuto_Sai12]

You're right he moved faster than the time it took the BB to cross 5.62m since he was shown waiting for it but it's an unquantifiable amount tho so it won't matter

 

[CinCameron20]

^exactly what I'm saying, and even if the amount was known, the time-span they were moving is unknown. can only be assumed that he is just "faster" than it since he outsped it.

 

[Antvasima]

So, given that Kkapoios has quit, what is the conclusion here?

 

[LlamaGod1411]

Well, two people state MHS+ Attack Speed Only, One States MHS+ Combat/Reaction Speed, While two oppose the second(or both) notion(s).

 

[Alakabamm]

...well, we have multiple calcs running around right now, none of which are necessarily satisfactory and I need to review the distance argument myself by rereading that portion of the manga. If it's legit, I suppose I will formalize it into a blog.

 

[Antvasima]

@Alakabamm Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

Okay, so I was planning on staying out of this since I don't really care what happens either way, but I have the feeling that some people here haven't fully understood the point of this calc., which is unfair to the person that originally made it. So in order to avoid any more circular arguments, I will try to present it in a more clear way than has been done so far in an effort to remove any lingering confusion and misconception. So, let's take this one step at a time shall we?

-Step 1 (chap. 621 p.8 middle panel): Start of feat. Hashirama is running away as the BB pursues him. The distance between them at that point was calculated to be 40.12m (horizontally). Furthermore, both the BB and Hashirama were calculated to be 43.88m (vertically) in the air.

-Step 2 (chap 621 p.8 bottom panels): Hashirama is about to summon the Rashoumons. To do so, he needs to be in contact with the ground meaning that he changed his direction of motion and travelled 43.88m (vertically) from his previous position in the air to reach the ground.

-Step 3 (chap. 621 p.9): End of feat. The Rashoumons are summoned facing the BB and are calculated to be 34.5m wide (horizontally) all together. It is assumed that the BB impacted them just as soon as they appeared, meaning that at that point it too was 34.5m (horizontally) away from Hashirama, who was on the other side of the gates. So, 40.12 (original horizontal distance between Hashirama and the BB) - 34.5 (final horizontal distance between Hashirama and the BB) = 5.62m (horizontal distance travelled by BB up till Hashirama stopped moving).

-Step 4 (final tally): Hashirama travelled 43.88m (vertically). BB travelled 5.62m (horizontally). Both movements were performed at the same time and different direction of movement is irrelevant. 43.88/5.62 = 7.81 (rounded). Meaning Hashirama is 7.81 times faster than the BB. BB is Mach 234 so 234*7.81 = 1827. Hashirama is Mach 1827 in combat speed.

If anything this would be an absolute low-end since it assumes that: a) Hashirama moved perfectly vertically to reach the ground, when he would have logically moved diagonally (yielding a higher distance travelled) and b) That he summoned the Rashoumon instantly and that the BB also hit them instantly after they appeared, which is also unlikely, meaning that the BB would have moved even less by the time Hashirama finished the feat (the width of the Rashoumon is calculated from the bottom panel of page 9, while Hashirama's feat ended on page 8, before the gates were even summoned).

Also some people made reference to an unknown timeframe as cause to doubt the calc. You see the thing is, this calc. doesn't need a timeframe, its a simple maipulation of ratios. Whether the timeframe was 1 second or 3 hours, Hashirama would still be 7.81 times faster than the BB since their relative speeds won't have changed.

To the people mentioning an attack speed (I assume you mean his summoning speed), to find the low-end I think you would need to calculate how far the Rashoumon gates rose from ground level (i.e. how far they moved) and compare with 5.62m (BB's movement).

Sorry about the wall of text, but I hope that cleared things up for some people. So yeah, I think this calc. is legit but I'll leave it up to everyone else to decide.

 

[CinCameron20]

MHS+ attack speed doesn't really work given that we don't see the distance the BB is as soon as Hashirama begins summoning the gate.

when we see the gates and the BB on the same panel, the gates are already up.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

@CinCameron20

That's why I'm saying its a low-end. The BB would have obviously moved some distance below 5.62m before Hashirama summoned the gates, meaning that the gates rose up while the BB moved even less.

Though this of course depends if we assume that the Rashoumon just instantly appears or rises up.