Guts vs. Son Goku

[ScarletFirefly]

@EliminatorVenom

Yes, I thought you were the dude I was debating earlier. Apologies to both of you.

Also, are you sure Guts will suffer only broken bones? His Durability is 10x lower than Goku's AP at the lowest case scenario.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

@Scarlet

I figured so, but I thought that the Dragonslayer, combined with his skills and experience, would allow him to block most of Goku's attacks, and considering how pragmatic Guts is at combat, chop off his limbs as he attacks.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@EliminatorVenom

Didn't Goku battle Tao Pai Pai or something? I remember that dude was really old, therefore having much more experience than Goku and a master of martial arts.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

@Scarlet

He did. However, Tao Pai Pai lacked something that Guts have: Range (Soulcutting also helps). With Dragonslayer, Guts can safely remain outside of Goku's physical reach while he literally disassembles him.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

That's why I asked if Goku has the staff here. If he does, he outranges Dragonslayer.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

You can go around this however you want. Unless you show proof that Dragonslayer actually killed a guy with a non-lethal wound, then it's not happenning. Everything you've argued at this point has proven that Dragonslayer affects the soul, nothing more, nothing less.

This is kind of my point basically. Soul manipulation is typically considered OHK unless specified otherwise. Comparing Guts soul attacking sword to other characters from completely different verses isn't a good argument.

Also sorry for the late reply, had to go do... something.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, Soul manipulation is not always considered an OHK, it is more commonly not considered an OHK. And Guts never showed the ability to OHK anyone with Dragonslayer by attacking their soul.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

No, Soul manipulation is not always considered an OHK, it is more commonly not considered an OHK.

Guts variant stops the soul. Making it a OHK.

And Guts never showed the ability to OHK anyone with Dragonslayer by attacking their soul.

Proof?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Why the hell do you need to prove that a character hasn't done something? You need to prove that he did.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Why the hell do you need to prove that a character hasn't done something? You need to prove that he did.

This is a fallacy right here. The Dragonslayer literally stops the soul.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Where does it show the ability to do that?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Last I checked it just damages the soul alongside the body.

Can you show me a scene where Guts actually does what you claim? And what does "stop the soul" even mean?

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Last I checked it just damages the soul alongside the body.

Can you show me a scene where Guts actually does what you claim? And what does "stop the soul" even mean?

Already provided the scan earlier in this thread.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Black No you provided a scan where Guts says that when he cuts someone's head off they die, nothing about your claim of Dragonslayer killing with a small cut

 

[Arigarmy]

i mean can we get a source of this fam

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@XBlackExcellenceX

You're shifting the burden of proof again. We cannot accept a claim as true because it's not proven false yet.

And the "stopping the soul" thing not only doesn't prove anything since it's said in the context where Dragonslayer has cut through their neck, but also heavily suggests it's flowery language.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Guts literally states that the Dragonslayer will stop their soul.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

You're shifting the burden of proof again. We cannot accept a claim as true because it's not proven false yet.

And the "stopping the soul" thing not only doesn't prove anything since it's said in the context where Dragonslayer has cut through their neck, but also heavily suggests it's flowery language.

How exactly is that flowery language? It would be considered flowery statement if something contradicted it. Guts states that he can stop souls and he can affect non-corporeal entities via soul manipulation.

I'm providing the proof here. You guys just aren't accepting it.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

I'm providing the proof here. You guys just aren't accepting it.

Except that's not proof of OHK at all, only proving that he can affect the soul with his sword, something that we already know.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Except that's not proof of OHK at all, only proving that he can affect the soul with his sword, something that we already know.

So stopping a soul (which is your life essence in Berserk) isn't OHK? Ok

 

[Reppuzan]

@Black

All you need to do to end this argument is provide a scan of Guts killing someone with a nick of the Dragonslayer instead of cutting through their whole body. Since you're the one making the claim, it falls on you to prove it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Intelligence: Mostly even. Guts is more intelligent overall, and is quite cunning in battle, while Goku is far less intelligent overall, but is a battle genius.

AP to Dura: Goku, Large Building Level AP to Gut's building level+ means he will oneshot. He can still block with the dragonslayer, but considering this is Berserker Guts, he probably wouldn't bother trying to block (unless he has Schierke helping keep him conscious)

Range: Goku has much higher range, but as covered above he's a martial artist and is more likely to try and end this in CQC, in which case Guts gets the advantage here with the Dragonslayer's size.

Stamina: Probably Guts thanks to the Berserker armour, but both pretty high.

Hax: Guts is able to attack the soul, but as it has yet to be shown that he can one shot with a scratch, this instead is only partial durability and regen negation. Goku doesn't have regen so that aspect of it is meaningless, as any wound is going to remain regardless. It still means only a fatal strike or repeated small strikes can kill Goku.

Overall, I'd have to go with Goku here. I can definitely see Guts winning with a sudden berserker charge, but the power advantage goes to Goku when Guts doesn't block with Dragonslayer, which unless Schierke is helping out, he isn't in a rational enough state of mind to do, so Goku takes him down with a couple of hits.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Doesn't the Power Pole severely outrange the Dragonslayer?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. In which case Goku also has the range advantage even in CQC, so yeah, voting Goku

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm voting for Kid Goku too. Glass Cannon status doesn't do well for Guts here.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

The beginnings of a comeback for Goku. Omoshiroi.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

I change my vote for Goku for reasons above

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Hmmm, the staff makes this more interesting.

I'd just like to point a counter (I must admit I am kinda a Guts fanboy here) to some of @Monarch's points:

Durability: True, Guts' durability is way lower than Goku's AP, but the Berserker Armor guarantees that, unless Goku blows his head off or does such outrageous damage that it kills Guts instantly, he'll go through it. I'm not denying the AP advantage though, just pointing this out.

Intelligence: I say that Goku being a battle genius is a bit... Too much? Sorry if I sound arrogant or anything, but Goku's intelligence is basically normal, even a bit naïve, with the difference that he is really good at martial arts. Guts' intellect is quite above normal, and while he is outmatched by Goku in hand-to-hand combat, Goku simply lacks the pragmatic mindset that Guts has. Guts isn't above - in fact, he is likely - to use underhanded tactics in order to beat a foe stronger than he is. He is willing to hurt himself only to get a surprise strike, he is really good at adapting to sitautions that go from bad to worse and quite a bit of scientific - even though basic - knowledge to help him in the middle of battle. Goku gets close, and Guts notices that he is stronger, and has longer range with his staff? Mini-bombs. They are both trying to outmatch eachother in a sword-staff clash? Guts takes the opportunity to fire his arm-cannon at Goku's gut. Guts is on the ground, close to Goku, and he is about to deliver a finishing blow? Guts slices his hands off.

Stamina: Guts is... An interesting case. His stamina is finite, but even if it ends - which is unlikely, considering how outrageous it is - the Berserker Armor will force him to continue fighting. His body will literally tear itself to shreds before Guts stops fighting.

However, while I do not change my vote, you managed to convince me that Guts will have a hell of a time trying to beat Goku.

 

[Byakuya_"Senbonzakura"_Kuchiki]

Going with Goku for reasons above.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Bump.

 

[TheRustyOne]

It'll be very close but I vote for Goku for reason above. Not much for me to add here.

 

[Zianmoon2]

Sorry for any inconvenience this brings. With the arguments above being presented(specifically about how the Dragonslayer works), I wish to switch my vote to So Goku.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Goku for reasons above.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

This going to be added to profiles then?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Whoops. Going to add it later.

 

[Ingenium_Nitro]

Guts has the Bersker amrour a strong armour that gives the use in inhuman streatgh and speed if goku laid some good hits on Guts while he is in this armour and Guts bones break the Armour would bind the Bones togeter so Guts could continue fighting goku I hope some of you know that guts has a huge rage he has like a Kratos level rage when he goes into his rage things would be cleved in half. Guts has a range of weapons and Dragon slayer has feed on so many Demonic blood it could harm even spirts given that if goku did die and comes back from the dead like he did in Dbz to help Gohan Dragon slayer would be able to kill goku with out a thought. But we have two guys whos pride are over the roof Guts has strong will power and fighting stlyes if you look at guts and how many demons fought im sure goku would not be a problem to our Demon slayer If you look at the battle with Zodd Guts said if he blinks once he would becleved in half and his bones fill like they would shatter but they didnt that shows that Guts can handle phiscal damage maybe some Ki blast would hurt him but you need to remeber about Bersker Armour>

 

[DragonEmperor23]

This was already concludded

 

[Ingenium_Nitro]

oh sorry just wanted to just added afew things sorry ill just head off