Guts vs Killua Zoldyck

[CiscoTheSoto]

Guts vs Killua Zoldyck

• Battle Location: Greed Island
• Starting Distance: 20 meters
• Both in-character
• Speed Unequalized
• Berserker Armor Guts and Chimera Ant arc Killua were used.

Guts:

Killua: 7 (@TRAE_is_arceus, @Shmeatywerbenmanjenson, @Dr._whiteee, @Juggernaught, @jojo123, @Artorimachi_Meteoraft, @CiscoTheSoto)

Inconclusive:

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Guts AP: Significantly higher than 119 tons

Guts Speed: Mach 98

Killua’s AP: 278 tons

Killua’s Speed: Mach 50

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Guts in the Berserker Armor is completely immune to any fear, empathic manipulation or telepathy, which I believe is enough for Guts not to be overcome by Nen Crush. Guts has the higher speed and is also used to fighting opponents stronger than he is.

He should resist all of Killua’s electric attacks, since he tanked several of Ganishka’s lightning bolts and even dodged several lightning bolts as well. Guts has plenty of fighting experience, not to mention that he has significantly higher stamina in the Berserker Armor and the inability to feel any pain. So this should not be a stomp.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[GoldExPoints]

Even if you consider Berserker Armor's berserk mode to overcome madness type 3 (which is dubious), Ren still has death manip

 

[GoldExPoints]

Also which Chimera Ant Killua is this? Because if it's late Chimera Ant (post-Illumi needle), Killua's Ren is even stronger and he can just Godspeed and blitz Guts (Godspeed being able to blitz somebody who's Mach 100 and make somebody who's Mach 106 unconfident of his speed)

 

[Onelixy]

Guts Speed: Mach 98

Agony.

Now, I don't think VsBattle's speed for Guts is remotely accurate, as the ancient NarutoForum calcs are awful, and the one with Rosine straight-up lies, or unintentionally misunderstands the sequence, which I find hard when rereading. Guts couldn't even see her when she was faster than sound, and she intentionally had to slow down as well to land her attacks. There's nothing that indicated she's supersonic during the two attacks Guts somewhat reacts to, on the contrary.
This applies for the supposed lightning timing as well, but that's for its own Berserk-speed revision thread.

I don't really think Killua's speed is very accurate either, but still consistently far above Guts and he would eventually take him out.

 

[Nierre]

Guts' profile is outdated I think

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[GoldExPoints]

Bump

There's still no match to be had dawg, Guts doesn't completely resist Ren and even if he does, Killua blitzes by turning into Godspeed because he starts in base

 

[GoldExPoints]

Maybe start Killua in Godspeed, so they're on equal footing speedwise. That still doesn't help with Death Manip tho, but it's a step

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[Livinmeme]

Death manip takes time to take effect so...

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Guts in the Berserker Armor is completely immune to any fear, empathic manipulation or telepathy, which I believe is enough for Guts not to be overcome by Nen Crush. Guts has the higher speed and is also used to fighting opponents stronger than he is.

He should resist all of Killua’s electric attacks, since he tanked several of Ganishka’s lightning bolts and even dodged several lightning bolts as well. Guts has plenty of fighting experience, not to mention that he has significantly higher stamina in the Berserker Armor and the inability to feel any pain. So this should not be a stomp.

He's not completely immune to telepathy, otherwise Schierke never could've brought his consciousness back whenever he activated the armor. Everything else checks out though

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Guts' profile is outdated I think

The speed stats yeah, but Berserk has gone through a fair few revisions over the past year or so, so his abilities and AP/striking/dura are up-to-date

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not so sure, I just double checked the lightning feats, and there's 3-4 instances of them actively reacting to it and performing physical movements after it's fired, they're not as fast, but still fast enough to actually do something about it, which I'm pretty sure is what the calc accounts for.

Rosine a bit sus tho.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I'm not so sure, I just double checked the lightning feats, and there's 3-4 instances of them actively reacting to it and performing physical movements after it's fired, they're not as fast, but still fast enough to actually do something about it, which I'm pretty sure is what the calc accounts for.

Rosine a bit sus tho.

Rosine totally sus. The calcs ignore context, and the fact that even though she may not be the only supersonic character in Berserk, she is the only one to consistently produce mach cones when she's at full speed.

 

[Chariot190]

Checking the Rosine feat, when she tries to impale Guts, she does seem to have the whole jet burst thing in the panel prior to Guts reacting indicating she's going at her high speedand she doesn't have any indication of slowing down as she's extremely desperate given she's dying (Edit: Double double checking, she has the jet burst even after he reacts, so it really does seem she's going at high speed in the "feat"), pretty sure the calc might be legit but it's just inconsistent at that part of the story.

Though the lightning stuff as mentioned definitely seems to check out, 4 different instances of them reacting to it, does need a recalc though.
There's also a few other speed feats that could be taken a look at (not to mention LS, it's a huge shame they're that low, they definitely have some decent ones like "Human" Zodd yeeting a horse slayer at FTE speeds multiple kilometers).

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Checking the Rosine feat, when she tries to impale Guts, she does seem to have the whole jet burst thing in the panel prior to Guts reacting indicating she's going at her high speedand she doesn't have any indication of slowing down as she's extremely desperate given she's dying (Edit: Double double checking, she has the jet burst even after he reacts, so it really does seem she's going at high speed in the "feat"), pretty sure the calc might be legit but it's just inconsistent at that part of the story.

Though the lightning stuff as mentioned definitely seems to check out, 4 different instances of them reacting to it, does need a recalc though.
There's also a few other speed feats that could be taken a look at (not to mention LS, it's a huge shame they're that low, they definitely have some decent ones like "Human" Zodd yeeting a horse slayer at FTE speeds multiple kilometers).

Maybe she had a burst of strength from desperation that let her hit her normal top speed, but idk I personally think her being so severely wounded kept her from doing that, unless there's an actual visible mach cone in that scene

 

[Chariot190]

Looking over it, it definitely seems she's going at top speed there (she has the stuff while impaling Guts with a blood spray), there's to much to suggest she is to just assume she isn't. Meaning it's probably just a feat we'd have to take as an outlier for that timeframe, unless there's a handful of corroborating feats or evidence to suggest otherwise.

Guts seems to deflect a whip attack from her tho too for what that's worth.

 

[Onelixy]

I'm not so sure, I just double checked the lightning feats, and there's 3-4 instances of them actively reacting to it and performing physical movements after it's fired, they're not as fast, but still fast enough to actually do something about it, which I'm pretty sure is what the calc accounts for.

Rosine a bit sus tho.

The issue is that Ganiska is manifesting lightning even before it's launched and there's only one panel where we actually see lightning traveling through the air towards Guts, which is when he has already sat up Dragon Slayer as a lightning rod.

There are panels where Ganiska manifests lightning or electricity in his cloud/mist form before and unrelated to attacking, both Guts and Serpico is getting aid from Schierke which can sense the attack and warn them before it's launched, and Daiba, the mage, who is watching all of this confirms that it's useless, as no one is faster than lightning, right before Guts is struck again, losing Schierke. This wouldn't make sense if Guts and Serpico are capable of reacting to lightning already traveling towards them.

I'd recommend re-reading the entire sequence without the assumption that his lightning or electricity is already traveling each time it's manifested, as it makes a lot more sense. Especially considering it also manifests unrelated to any attacks.

I've made several posts about it on CV.

I'll make a revision thread later and tag those interested for discussion. I'm pretty confident in my assertion.

@Chariot190
Looking over it, it definitely seems she's going at top speed there (she has the stuff while impaling Guts with a blood spray), there's to much to suggest she is to just assume she isn't.

She's explicitly not going top speed during the two attacks Guts lets himself get hit by. She herself states that she's slowing down to land the attacks, Guts says he can first now see her attacks, contrary to her blatant supersonic attacks, which Guts stated he can't even see, and that he wouldn't be able to actually attack her. This is again proven by him interacting with her stinger when she's slowed down, and there are no visual clues or elements of anything supersonic taking place contrary to the earlier sequences.

This leads me to believe both of Guts' top speed feats on his page aren't represented correctly.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Guts AP: Significantly higher than 119 tons

Guts Speed: Mach 98

Killua’s AP: 278 tons

Killua’s Speed: Mach 50

I love these two
Anyway, Killua is roughly 2x stronger than what massively upscales from. So Guts’ true potency should be closer to Killua. Guts speed is basically 2x faster than Killua so he should be able to land more hits on Killua. The AP gap shouldn’t be too bad then…

Nen crush seems to be exaggerated here tbh but the reasons you gave for why Guts resists are fine by me.

So what else has been said so far here?

 

[rawXDglomp]

Chimera ant Killua has a massive speed amp.
Is he just not using that or is he using that by default?

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Chimera ant Killua has a massive speed amp.
Is he just not using that or is he using that by default?

Well he can use it, though he'd only be slightly faster, and he can only use Godspeed for a limited amount of time before he runs out of electricity.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Goku has swordsmanship experience too if no body is asking

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Killua is going to handily win with Godspeed unless there is an ability or resistance I'm unaware of. Godspeed Killua was > the RG in speed and his shocks were enough to cause Youpi pain and stun him several times. Same Youpi who literally just got done blasting away a town+ feat with him at the epicenter.

Should also be noted that Godspeed also allowed Killua to hit with enough force to superficially damage and knockback Youpi as well, and his concentrated blast completely incinerated Pouf's face.

So can Guts kill Killua before he activates godspeed? Killua is smart enough to activate godspeed once he sees a big armored dude who has good power and speed Imo, so Guts has a very small window to get it done.

 

[Chariot190]

Godspeed Killua was > the RG in speed and his shocks were enough to cause Youpi pain and stun him several times. Same Youpi who literally just got done blasting away a town+ feat with him at the epicenter.

Superficial damage at best ngl. And Youpi lacks res of any kind to even the most basic shocks. This doesn't mean Killua's shocks are like a trillion volts or whatever and probably also why Killua even with Godspeed doesn't scale to the God Tiers a whole magnitude above his ratings

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Superficial damage at best ngl. And Youpi lacks res of any kind to even the most basic shocks. This doesn't mean Killua's shocks are like a trillion volts or whatever and probably also why Killua even with Godspeed doesn't scale to the God Tiers a whole magnitude above his ratings

Yeah, but once again, he had just finished ragdolling a whole squadron and nuking himself. Youpi was both stunned and wailing out in pain. So while superficial it was definitely noteworthy giving it was bruising and char, where as even someone like Knuckle wasn't really much of a physical threat. Mind you, that CA arc Killua in base was notably weaker than CA Palm in physicals so knocking Youpi around his a very noteworthy accomplishment even if not significantly harming him to that point.

I don't really know too much about Guts so I was more so trying to get feelers for how he'd deal with godspeed Killua and those upgrades given it seems a relative match in base.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, but once again, he had just finished ragdolling a whole squadron and nuking himself. Youpi was both stunned and wailing out in pain. So while superficial it was definitely noteworthy giving it was bruising and char, where as even someone like Knuckle wasn't really much of a physical threat. Mind you, that CA arc Killua in base was notably weaker than CA Palm in physicals so knocking Youpi around his a very noteworthy accomplishment even if not significantly harming him to that point.

But that's due to electrical currents? Not AP, Guts is going to be effect merely the same way, in fact, probably less so given Guts has tanked super powerful lightning that can turn apostles to ash before, aka, he does have a decent electrical res.
Youpi being "hurt" by the electrical attacks is due to the nature of the attacks, not energy output, and he lacks any resistance to such attacks so of course hw would.

The question we should be asking is what is the potency of Killua's electricity (volts, ampage, etc) and how does it compare to super-powered literal lightning?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

But that's due to electrical currents? Not AP,

I mean, that is debatable as him screaming while paralyzed isn't really something that is possible, nor would it account much for his skin being hurt.

Guts is going to be effect merely the same way, in fact, probably less so given Guts has tanked super powerful lightning that can turn apostles to ash before, aka, he does have a decent electrical res.

That's pretty potent lightning.

The question we should be asking is what is the potency of Killua's electricity (volts, ampage, etc) and how does it compare to super-powered literal lightning?

As far as in verse he was able to incinerate a portion of Pouf's face, albeit Pouf is weaker than Youpi he is still a RG and even fodder base ant soldiers are pretty durable.

As far as indicators of strength, this relatively fodder electric whip set is said to have been 1 million volts and the Killua utilized his lifetime experience of electric torture to create it. So well above that value.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, that is debatable as him screaming while paralyzed isn't really something that is possible, nor would it account much for his skin being hurt.

That's kinda how electrical currents work lad. Not only is it possible, that's the basic fundamentals.
Electricity bypasses durability without innate resistances, it's literally why MGS' ratings are being questioned as they come from Volgin having 10m volts.

As far as in verse he was able to incinerate a portion of Pouf's face, albeit Pouf is weaker than Youpi he is still a RG and even fodder base ant soldiers are pretty durable.

As far as indicators of strength, this relatively fodder electric whip set is said to have been 1 million volts and the Killua utilized his lifetime experience of electric torture to create it. So well above that value.

That Pouf isn't even a fraction of Pouf's normal strength (as in, it's literally a fraction of him, after he already used up most of his power at that), and Pouf is already the weakest. That's barely even a feat.

That isn't how it works, you're acting like Killua is taking the cumulative lifetime of his shocks, combining it into one thing, and that's Godspeed. It isn't, all it is is something he learned from said experiences. While it probably is above the 1m volt whip, that reasoning as to why doesn't cut it.

Also an average lightning flash is 300m volts and Guts tanks a super one.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

That's kinda how electrical currents work lad. Not only is it possible, that's the basic fundamentals.
Electricity bypasses durability without innate resistances, it's literally why MGS' ratings are being questioned as they come from Volgin having 10m volts.

You misunderstood my post.

I am saying that Youpi screaming means he was not fully paralyzed or else he wouldn't have been able to yelp and in tandem with his superficial damage means it did some damage to him outside of stunning him. You can't vocalize while being taxed because of your muscles geeking out. And that is the only aspect that bypasses durability to my knowledge unless it's something specific and targeted like Law's ability vs Doflamingo.

That Pouf isn't even a fraction of Pouf's normal strength (as in, it's literally a fraction of him, after he already used up most of his power at that), and Pouf is already the weakest. That's barely even a feat.

Pouf being the weakest Royal guard doesn't really mean much, he's still a royal guard and still MCB. And the clone that was sent to get Killua was specifically given the power to do such and when Pouf discusses Killua's ability in reference to his he doesn't state that his being "weakened" due to split is being taken into account. Mind you, even the portion left with Meruem was enough in combination with Youpi to nourish Meruem and have him evolve. So not sure why we're downplaying here.

That isn't how it works, you're acting like Killua is taking the cumulative lifetime of his shocks, combining it into one thing, and that's Godspeed.

I never claimed that. I said that Killua based his electricity transmutation directly from his experiences tanking lightning since being a baby. Killua tanked 1,000,000V and found it a mere annoyance, and was tortured using electricity again by his brother. Thus, I was making the case that Killua's electricity is > 1,000,000 V to an uncertain degree.

I'm not sure why you're aggressively strawmanning me when I said I was looking for Guts resistance feats and ways of dealing with the stat boost.

Also an average lightning flash is 300m volts and Guts tanks a super one.

Well lightning doesn't autoscale to resistance against the shock but it does make it so Killua's potency is outmatched, if able to vaporize significantly strong humans.

But does he have a stat boost to close the AP gap after Killua is beating him in speed?

 

[Chariot190]

Pouf being the weakest Royal guard doesn't really mean much, he's still a royal guard and still MCB. And the clone that was sent to get Killua was specifically given the power to do such and when Pouf discusses Killua's ability in reference to his he doesn't state that his being "weakened" due to split is being taken into account. Mind you, even the portion left with Meruem was enough in combination with Youpi to nourish Meruem and have him evolve. So not sure why we're downplaying here.

That doesn't matter?
He gave Meruem most of his power, and the clone was just a fraction of his power post fact. Of course it wasn't explained in that scene it'd be weaker, but they already do it extensively before that point in how that ability works, no need to reiterate what was already said, that's just bad writing.

We know his clones only have a fraction of his power, saying Killua wounded a RG is disingenuous. It leaves out how he's drastically weaker in that state, atop of already being weakened.
We're not downplaying, Pouf, normally is comparable to the other guards, it's just in this specific situation there's other factors at play..
Like there's a good reason Killua isn't scaling to Pouf's normal rating.

The clone should be quite strong given it was intended to beat Killua, but it's also true Pouf is up his own ass and didn't know Killua's full capabilities.

I never claimed that. I said that Killua based his electricity transmutation directly from his experiences tanking lightning since being a baby. Killua tanked 1,000,000V and found it a mere annoyance, and was tortured using electricity again by his brother. Thus, I was making the case that Killua's electricity is > 1,000,000 V to an uncertain degree.

That's what you wrote.

Killua utilized his lifetime experience of electric torture to create it

That's what you said, if that isn't what you meant that isn't my fault.

But can you even? Just because he has good resistance doesn't mean his lightning he uses is better than his own resistance, we need evidence or a statement. While I agree it should be > 1m volts, you haven't posted any proof it is either, even if you did that's still 300x below Guts.

Honestly, it made have evidence to be situational, if memory serves, Killua has to actively charge up his lightning. In the scene you posted, he procs it by taking

I'm not sure why you're aggressively strawmanning me when I said I was looking for Guts resistance feats and ways of dealing with the stat boost.

I'm just replying to what you said as outlined above, if that isn't what you meant, that isn't my fault. That's just how your post is worded.

Well lightning doesn't autoscale to resistance against the shock but it does make it so Killua's potency is outmatched, if able to vaporize significantly strong humans.

But does he have a stat boost to close the AP gap after Killua is beating him in speed?

Yes it does? He was attacked by a living cloud with intent to fry him, it's why he got that resistance.
Nah, the lightning doesn't vaporize strong humans, it vaporizes strong demons.

Guts in the armor is ridiculously above his normal AP. He can hit so hard he breaks his own arms and pushes back and overwhelms those that dog walks his base.
No solid number, but it can be tremendous.

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Is this still going? Assuming this is Post Illumi’s needle, Killua wins handily FRA. I honestly don’t see how this is fair. Ren still has paralysis and death manipulation as mentioned above and Killua could probably just pummel him with Kaminari to weaken him and rip his head off(pretty in character to do when he fights enemies with strong defense)

 

[Chariot190]

Killua has less LS than Guts tho, he ain't ripping anyone's head off
Or at least, he would if that recent Class K calc gets accepted

And isn't the parahax and death manip an extension of the fear manip?

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Killua has less LS than Guts tho, he ain't ripping anyone's head off
Or at least, he would if that recent Class K calc gets accepted

And isn't the parahax and death manip an extension of the fear manip?

No. Ren combats it just like the fear manipulation, but it was just stated that if Gon and Killua kept resisting the Ren it would kill them. They are both from Ren but they are separate things. Also I did mention that Killua uses the tactic of pummeling enemies with lightning to weaken them if he can’t hurt them. He did that to Rhino(who he couldn’t even scratch) and then was able to rip his heart out effortlessly. If it worked on Rhino it should work on Guts

 

[Chariot190]

Also I did mention that Killua uses the tactic of pummeling enemies with lightning to weaken them if he can’t hurt them. He did that to Rhino(who he couldn’t even scratch) and then was able to rip his heart out effortlessly. If it worked on Rhino it should work on Guts

Except Guts has electric resistance, he doesn't. Killua's lightning needs to supersede Guts' res, or it's not going to phase him. And even if it did hurt him, it won't actually stop him due to the armor.

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Except Guts has electric resistance, he doesn't. Killua's lightning needs to supersede Guts' res, or it's not going to phase him. And even if it did hurt him, it won't actually stop him due to the armor.

Fair point. What about Killua’s Yo-yo’s? They are fairly efficient and hard to predict. Is there anything stopping Killua from applying the same strategy with the yo-yo’s instead? and Killua’s paralysis and death manip are still important to note. Guts doesn’t resist these things IIRC so I can’t see anything stopping Killua from barraging him with attacks until he gets some fatal hits.