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Grandmother Raven v.s Khorne (Great match here I guess...) 9-1

For what reason? You gave NO reason as to why Khorne wins, with nothing to retort my reasons for why Raven wins. Give an actual reason as to why Khrone would win.

@Eleonore
 
Zenkaibattery1 said:
If he doesn't then here's how I see the battle going. I'll go over Khrones abilities
snip
Click to expand...
I'll go through a bit of this and why I disagree with a lot of it being reasons for a victory.

First of all, in regards to AP, I have no idea what Raven's is beyond "countless", but I can clarify Khorne's a bit more. Firstly, it's important to remember that the Realm of Shyish, which is one of the eight main mortal realms, contains within it every version of the afterlife conceived by mortal life. This is already pretty enormous, but beyond that, there's a formless bubble of magic that's larger than all the mortal realms combined (including Shyish) and surrounds them. All of this is just tiny drop in the Realm of Chaos, which appears to be endless by comparison. Stuff like Nurgle's garden is only a portion of this seemingly endless realm, which the Chaos Gods could accidentally destroy in the blink of an eye if they didn't balance themselves.

"Set apart from the rest of the Realm of Chaos is the Court of the Covenant, the neutral territory upon which the Gods meet when they have cause. Each of the Dark Gods has an equal seat at the table, for the natural balance between the Gods is a complex and convoluted weave. No single deity is ever powerful enough to prevail over another without aid and, for the sake of all existence, it is well that this is so. All natural order would cease if one of the Gods were to triumph over his brethren, undoing the fabric of creation and destroying all that exists in the merest blink of an eye."

Raven forcing Khorne to follow laws she sets is so ridiculously debatable that I'm not even sure how this is a point in her favor. First of all, Khorne's power null functions just fine against beings comparable to himself, and I've seen nothing to suggest Raven could just overwhelm Khorne with her powers when the other Chaos Gods can't. Second, forcing Khorne to follow the laws set by her would require changing the structure of the entire Realm of Chaos, which I'm not sure how she could do when such a thing is governed by all four main Chaos Gods. Their domain general domain may be "Chaos", but they still have to ensure there's a balance. This is of course ignoring the fact that Khorne and the other Chaos Gods already subconsciously govern the laws (or lack thereof) in the Realm of Chaos, and I see no reason as to why Raven's is insurmountably better.

I'm unsure of how Raven lolnoping Spider's power null makes things more impressive. If Spider's power null was overcome by a being who is comparable to him, then it seems worse than Khorne's, whose power null works even in those moments that the other gods manage to gain a foothold and become a bit more powerful than he is. It's also not some power he actively has to use. The power nullification just comes from Khorne's rage towards such things, which is an inherent aspect of his being.

Okay, it's completely fine if shadow magic overcomes in-universe resistances and immunities, but that does not mean it does the same thing in all circumstances in all verses, because that is massive NLF. Khorne is flat out immune to magic and most reality warping in-universe, but this does not mean we treat it as such in every match he's in. It just means his resistance is really, really good. Piercing resistances and immunities always needs scale. I will say that in Fantasy/AoS, Khorne does perfectly fine remaining immune to Tzeentch, who is the actual embodiment of flux, change, and the terrible momentum of Chaos. It's not like he's just unsure how to use them on him either, as we're directly told "Tzeentch perceives every event and intention, and from this information his incomprehensible mind can determine how each and every strand will serve to influence the future."

In terms of concepts, if you need info on that, things commonly attributed to Khorne are hate, rage, and bloodshed/violence. Strength in general, as well as honour and courage are also often ascribed to him, but this is somewhat less certain. I'm sure there are quite a few others I'm forgetting.

"Also to mention, Grandfather Spider's purpose of existing was to act as someone she could never defeat. He was the perfect counterbalance to her, with his Chaos and Shadow being able to match and cancel out her light and order. He was supposed to be immune to everything she could do and more, yet she found a way to slap him and still sealed him away."

I would really like citations for the specific things above, if at all possible. Because the way you've phrased everything about their fight simply sounds more like Spider was not actually immune to everything Raven could do, and he very much wasn't undefeatable to her (unless this is suppose to mean "not able to be stopped permanently").

I'm also not entirely sure where you're getting the idea that Raven could kill Khorne as opposed to just seal him, if that. Khorne has fought several entities who have similar powers on a very likely similar scale to Raven for his entire existence, and they have not been able to "kill" him. Even the threat of one Chaos God growing strong enough to completely and utterly defeat the other three isn't "any of the gods would be destroyed" but instead "all natural order would be destroyed and everything would cease to exist, which is a problem because we want to rule that". On top of all that, Khorne has godly regen. Raven does not.

If Raven's main win condition is sealing, I'm not only not sure how it can be guaranteed to consistently work against his power null without something as vague as "lol ignores resistances", but also the fact that I'm unsure of if this sealing would work in the first place. Khorne is not just a singular being, but also the aspects he embodies and the realm he dwells in. These things are equally Khorne, and I'm genuinely not sure by what's been presented if Raven has a better chance of sealing away all conflict, hate, bloodshed, etc. than Khorne managing to defeat her.


tl;dr for this ******' wall of text

I'm genuinely not sure what Raven has that beings Khorne has contended with for all eternity do not, and I'm not sure why she would be more likely to win when her survivability is actually lacking in comparison.
 
AP:

Even before the Sands of Time, Bartleby stated that there were countless worlds

"The spiral is the magical thread that holds together our universe. There are countless worlds in the spiral"

When the sands of times came into existence, the number of timelines were determined by the grains of sand there are.

Raven stated that the dunes of sands are endless, and everytime you go back there, she states it's even more endless than before, and this continues to expand more and more.

So she should be well above countless/endless

(I came back to this specific comment last because it will tie in things I've said in other responses). Ah, you see. You're once again throwing out there that just becaue The Chaos Gods can't do it to Khorne, that Raven automatically can't either. In retort, it's just me saying "I have seen no evidence to suggest the other chaos gods are more powerful or comparable to Raven". Balance between Chaos? You mean the Chaos that Grandfather Spider embodies as well, that she was able to, at the same time lock away? A heart of chaos that was the very essence and embodiment of Chaos, that charged the essence of reality and formed it alongside the shadows which she basically considered fodder? Yeah nah mate, that ain't stoping jack of what Raven can do.

Because I was taking what is stated on the profile and applying it. Nullifcation of more Abstract Magic. Raven has been unaffected by that in her original battle with Spider. That would be assuming the God's Khrone has been power nulling are comparable or stronger than Raven, which neither of us have given evidence to suggest one or the other. If we look at AP, from the things above, Raven does seem far stronger. Just because he can nullify Chaos Gods that are above in doesn't automatically make him above Raven's resistance. Spider's Power Null logically would be comparable to Raven's which literally made him go from 2-B to High 4-C, possibly 3-A, regardless that would be two infinites weaker. That's the same with Spider's, the Power Nullification is an aspect of his own being. It's passive in nature.

I don't see how that is NLF in the slightest. If a core purpose of an ability is to bypass resistances and immunaties to a specfic ability, then it is going to do just that. Otherwise that makes the concept of such abilities completley useless. Slapping "NLF" onto something just because it's shown to do that exact thing doesn't make it NLF. In that situation, if we were to take it face value that it was "NLF", his resistances to magic are getting directly combated against. It would boil down to the idea in the case if Shadow Magic is stronger than Khorne's resistances. Which I am willing to bet it is, as an conceptual force of Grandfather Spider that forms the essence of reality, with it easily being able to reshape the threads of reality. This just seems like an attempt to say "Sure it can bypass resistances, but it won't bypass it's Khorne!". No, I wasn't strawmanning you here, I'm saying exactly what it sounds like tbf

Alright.

It's from WoG and a few in-game implications

"The big three exist to perfectly counterbalance each other, the mere fact of this keeps existence safe. They can stop each other's action via sheer force of will"

Can't find the other direct statements as of now, but they are similar to the one stated above. With Raven's existence as the embodiment of light and order, outshining any force of Chaos and Shadow, which Spider embodies. The fact that Khrone is also related to the concept of Chaos means Raven isn't going to be pulling strings in the fight, and if anything, makes it worse for Khorne.

That's the equal of me saying, "Raven has fought a being who, in most regards is the same as Khorne on a similar scale." The whole "killing" and "stronger" aspect is something I've talked about above. I'm not sure how you saying they are comparable to Raven or stronger, makes it just that. Neither you or I have given reasons as to how stronger one is to the other until my first paragraph about AP above. Godly Regen or not, I don't see how it would be relevant if Khorne is stopped before anything happens. Is Khorne going to casually nuke the multiverse and the concept of light and order to make sure Raven can't come back.

That first line in your sealing paragraph makes absoultely no sense. "I'm not sure how it can be garauntted to consistently work against his power null without something as vague as "lol ignroes resistance". Where did that even derive from? Her sealing is that she binded The Chaos Heart to the original 6 schools of magic, each chains of Magic which none of Spider's resistances/immunaties, nor his reason of counterbalancing her existence could stop. Grandfather Spider in that regard isn't a singular person either. He is the Shadow and Chaos that is molded across reality, and everyone that participates in Shadow Magic becomes part of his being, Shadow Magic itself is sentiant omnipresnt conceptual figure, as it is derived from Spider, that forms reality and the essence of the universe, which Raven also locked away to make sure that no one ever learns it.

tl;dr

I'm not sure what of any of you have said counteracts any of what I originally said. Most of it is banking on assumption that just because he stopped a few Chaos Gods that are "Similar to Raven/stronger than him" (Debatable in the first place) he can stop Raven herself. For now, it seems Raven is far stronger to The Chaos Gods, and that's ignoring the fact that she can stat amp herself continiously.

Anyway, I'm going to sleep and I'll be out for 4 days, I'll respond to your next comment later
 
Khorne FRA. I don't really see that whole grains of sand thing as being more impressive than Khorne's AP, as people weaker than Khorne have similar statements on a far more casual level. (If I'm not mistaken)
 
@Zenkai

In regards to AP, I don't really see how Raven is stronger, because both are banking on the same thing; an area that is "endless" in comparison to countless universes. Unless your purpose was just to clarify her AP, but later on in this comment you seem to treat it as if Raven's stronger, which I again do not see the evidence for if these are the statements we're going off of, since both effectively come down to "endlessly greater than countless worlds".

  • "Ah, you see. You're once again throwing out there that just becaue The Chaos Gods can't do it to Khorne, that Raven automatically can't either."
This is not at all what I said. I'm suggesting that if Khorne is already capable of resisting and completely shrugging off the influence of abstract conceptual beings who are comparable to himself, you need more proof of Raven being able to affect him on these levels. You can't just say "she can just because". I'm not pulling this out of nowhere, either. Going back to the comment I originally replied to, you said:

"She can practically set the laws of magic to her favor and reshape laws across existence to her will. If she wanted, she could force Khrone to follow laws that she sets"

You did not provide adequate reasoning for such a thing. You just asserted that this is a thing Raven could do to Khorne. I am not saying "because this Chaos God could not do ____ to Khorne, Raven can not do so either". I am saying "because this Chaos God could not do ____ to Khorne, explain why Raven could do such a thing without just assuming she can by default".

  • "I have seen no evidence to suggest the other chaos gods are more powerful or comparable to Rave"
I have provided you with such evidence. I have explained the nature and size of Shyish, how it and the other mortal planes can fit into a bubble of unaligned magic, and how all of this is just a drop in the Realm of Chaos, which itself can hold things such as a swamp of countless universes within its seemingly endless expanse. I have also provided a quote saying that the Chaos Gods could accidentally destroy all of this in the blink of an eye if they did not actively balance themselves.

  • "Balance between Chaos? You mean the Chaos that Grandfather Spider embodies as well, that she was able to, at the same time lock away? A heart of chaos that was the very essence and embodiment of Chaos, that charged the essence of reality and formed it alongside the shadows which she basically considered fodder? Yeah nah mate, that ain't stoping jack of what Raven can do."
I'm assuming this is in response to the law manipulation conversation, so... are you asserting that Raven can affect the entirety of the Realm of Chaos because, in her setting, she sealed away something that is the embodiment of Chaos? This ignores the fact that, again, she has to overwhelm all the Chaos Gods to do this in its entirety, not just Khorne. This is like me saying, "So Raven's a conceptual abstract across all of creation, right? Like the ones whose power Khorne is completely immune to? Yeah, sorry, she's not gonna be able to do anything to him". It ignores any and all nuance for the sake of "these things are vaguely comparable, thus they are equal". If we treat that as the case, "Khorne is immune to everything Raven has to offer" is as valid as "Khorne can't do shit against Raven". It is much easier to make a case for just conceptually altering/attacking Khorne or something like that than imposing law across the entirety of the Realm of Chaos.

  • "That would be assuming the God's Khrone has been power nulling are comparable or stronger than Raven, which neither of us have given evidence to suggest one or the other."
I have given evidence as to the scale of 2-B the Fantasy Chaos Gods occupy. You have given evidence for the scale of 2-B Raven occupies. Neither immediately screams superiority to the other based on the size of the cosmology alone. I am not assuming they are comparable out of nowhere.

  • "If we look at AP, from the things above, Raven does seem far stronger."
Based on what? Nothing that's been provided suggests a larger cosmology.

  • "Just because he can nullify Chaos Gods that are above in doesn't automatically make him above Raven's resistance."
Exactly. Which is why I went through the effort of explaining the scale of 2-B he's in and why it is not vastly below Raven, as you suggest.

  • "Spider's Power Null logically would be comparable to Raven's which literally made him go from 2-B to High 4-C, possibly 3-A, regardless that would be two infinites weaker."
Unless Spider was naturally at this state, that is not so much power null as it is statistic debuffing, albeit very impressive power null. Which is specifically the kind of thing Khorne is most commonly focused on nullifying and resisting; powers targeted at him. Also, this is the kind of thing where context and video/scans is extremely helpful, as opposed to just automatic power reduction to a level two infinities lower. How was it done? What exactly happened? I have nothing to go by and can't properly gauge the ability. Similarly, Khorne choked Skarbrand, a being powerful enough to put a small crack in his armor, until he was at a level that he now contends with the strongest of mortal champions. However, without the full context, and because we don't see this, I don't want to use this as "Khorne choked two degrees of infinity out of Skarbrand". Likewise, the full context and video (if available) would be extremely helpful, here.

  • "I don't see how that is NLF in the slightest. If a core purpose of an ability is to bypass resistances and immunaties to a specfic ability, then it is going to do just that."
Again, in universe. In universe, Khorne is entirely immune to magic and its effects due to his unbridled rage. This includes magic from beings comparable to himself. It would still be NLF to say he's immune to all magic period when in a battle with someone not from his franchise. It just means his resistance is incredibly good. In this case, we would similarly say that shadow magic is better at overcoming resistances to magic, not that it bypasses all resistances to magic period. You cannot make such absolute statements outside the confines of a single fictional franchise. That's the point I'm getting at.

  • "Which I am willing to bet it is, as an conceptual force of Grandfather Spider that forms the essence of reality, with it easily being able to reshape the threads of reality."
Similar question to before; why is Grandfather Spider superior? Khorne has resisted the powers of several other entities comparable to him who are also conceptual forces that make up fundamental parts of reality, and can create, change, and destroy it at will. The reality that Grandfather Spider controls does not seem to be more impressive. Does this mean these powers won't work on Khorne at all? No, because there's zero way to say that for certain. However, it means you need an extremely good reason to just say "it bypasses Khorne's resistances".

  • "The big three exist to perfectly counterbalance each other, the mere fact of this keeps existence safe. They can stop each other's action via sheer force of will"
Doesn't the mere fact that Raven stopped Grandfather Spider in the first place disprove this as a completely literal statement? I'm genuinely curious, since she seemed to pretty objectively "defeat" him, not to mention Bartleby's page uses him being able to destroy Raven as an AP justification.

  • "Godly Regen or not, I don't see how it would be relevant if Khorne is stopped before anything happens. Is Khorne going to casually nuke the multiverse and the concept of light and order to make sure Raven can't come back."
Quite possibly? Chaos has the power to destroy creation, but what it really desires is to rule over the mortal realms, as it represents a great game. If that's not a problem in this fight, or if Khorne has genuine need to worry about an entity that is a threat to him, then I don't see what issues the god of bloodshed and slaughter would have pressing the nuke button if it was required to win.

  • "Where did that even derive from? Her sealing is that she binded The Chaos Heart to the original 6 schools of magic, each chains of Magic which none of Spider's resistances/immunaties, nor his reason of counterbalancing her existence could stop."
Again, I'm not saying "nothing Raven has would work on Khorne at all", as that's a ludicrous statement to make in matches as vague as this. What I am saying is, without the reasoning of "it overrode Spider's resistances, so it'll automatically override Khorne", why is this the most likely outcome? What makes this more likely than Khorne nuking everything to get rid of a legitimately dangerous enemy? What makes his resistances more likely to break before hers?

On top of that, do you have further context for this sealing? Did it just happen automatically or did Spider and Raven actually fight? This is extremely important if the sealing itself is a major win condition, and I was under the assumption they actually battled before Spider was sealed away.

  • "Grandfather Spider in that regard isn't a singular person either. He is the Shadow and Chaos that is molded across reality"
I was more under the assumption these things were created from him as opposed to literally being him, but if not, cool. Do you perhaps have anything that explains this a bit better, as a lot of info about him seems quite vague.

  • "Most of it is banking on assumption that just because he stopped a few Chaos Gods that are "Similar to Raven/stronger than him" (Debatable in the first place) he can stop Raven herself."
No, it's banking on "greater evidence is needed due to the fact Khorne has fought against and affected other beings of his level". The entire point of the first post was that you need better evidence specifically because of the beings Khorne has fought, not that he can stomp Raven or something like that. This is compounded by the fact that, again, his survivability is actually superior, which is a major factor in fights like these.

  • "For now, it seems Raven is far stronger to The Chaos Gods, and that's ignoring the fact that she can stat amp herself continiously."
1. I still have zero idea what you're basing this on going by what you've actually provided. Being endless compared to already countless universes is not far above the Realm of Chaos.

2. Khorne grows in power from conflict, and stat amping is one of the powers he'd actually be likely to use. I don't see how that makes a difference, here.
 
I guess, so this doesn't become a discussion that devolves into pointlessness, I'll try and condense some things I deem important in this comment.

  • If you believe Raven is superior in AP, please provide evidence why, because the AP statement given for her does not seem more impressive to me than the size of the Realm of Chaos.
  • If shadow magic is so adept at bypassing resistances in general, providing some of the most notable examples in universe with links would be very helpful, as few people are familiar with this ability from this franchise.
  • If sealing is such a major win condition for Raven, can you provide the backstory of the conflict between her and Spider? Because I have no way to verify this is just something she could do to him automatically from the very beginning, otherwise.
  • Honestly, just the context behind a lot of stuff involving those two in general, because I am unfortunately not very familiar with the verse and it is hard for me to just take someone's word without having too much of an idea about the exact lore it's being based on.
These would probably help things go more smoothly.
 
Tfw azathoth just reiterates what you said but phrased better and gets votes
 
Why am I not counted as voting for Khorne lol
 
Zenkaibattery1 said:
Resistance to Magic- Everyone from Malistare the undying onwards is "Immune" to magic in the game, but The Player still slapped him, and this is before he even got shadow magic, which has a specific sentiant being The Player can shapeshift into, who's core purpose is to cut through resistances and even immunaties. Immunaity and heavy resistance in the game is meaningless, that millions of people stopped playing the game because of it, because resistance and defensive strategy has pretty much dead. + Shadow Magic can bypass resistances to magic. That's it's core purpose.
Click to expand...
Gonna try to add some context here.


Malistaire was only immune to magic because of amps being fed to him by Morganthe and the undead monsters he fought with. Once they were taken care of, he was taken care of. But even then, I don't see why you'd say that the other people the Player fights are also immune, because not everyone that they fight after him is regarded to be on the same level of power, and he's the only boss who's shown to have full immunity to anything.


Also, in regards to the Player, it's important to note that Shadow Shrike doesn't negate all resistance. It subtracts from it.


For anyone who doesn't know: In Wizard101, resist is what determines how much a certain type of attack will affect a target. The higher your resist, the less that type of spell will hurt you. It works with percentages, so a character with 50% resistance will only be dealt half the amount of damage that the spell normally outputs, whereas a character with 100% or more (yes, it goes higher than 100%) will be "immune" to the damage dealt.


To counter this, there's pierce, which Shadow Shrike takes advantage of while casted. Shadow Shrike gives the caster an additional 50% pierce, making it so that characters with 100% resist will be treated as though they only have 50% resist, and so on. Shadow Shrike can affect shields, but it will work the same way as with resist. If somebody with 50% resist casts Tower Shield (-50% incoming damage), the Shrike will negate the Tower Shield but the resist will still take effect.

Also, Shadow Shrike isn't the only method for bypassing magic resist. Plenty of other spells that aren't Shadow-based also bypass resist, so I'm not sure where you got that bit about it being Shadow magic's core purpose unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant.
 
If you haven't already, you all should make a blog with all things Wizard101. I'm mildly familiar with the series myself, though I never actually finished the game. But making a blog with all the mechanics and how they translate to abilities, and then making a blog detailing the lore for each character would be very helpful.
 
Litentric Teon said:
If you haven't already, you all should make a blog with all things Wizard101. I'm mildly familiar with the series myself, though I never actually finished the game. But making a blog with all the mechanics and how they translate to abilities, and then making a blog detailing the lore for each character would be very helpful.
Click to expand...
The lore would be easy... the mechanics, not so much. It's pretty hard to accurately determine how much we see in the game is "canon", and how much is simply a part of gameplay.


We can make educated guesses to some extent, such as all the different times the Player has to fight wild animals (wild animals which just so happen to possess magic similar to the Player), but in other cases, it's not quite that easy to determine.
 
I almost feel bad that Zenkai can't come back to defend his points. Could've been an interesting debate. Shame he's gone for a few days though. I'm thinking it might be fair to keep this open for his sake until he comes back.
 
I'm going to be unable to respond for a few more days since i'm dealing with irl stuff. So you can add the match and close the thread. Even though I'm not sure what was the actual solid Khorne's victory condition; How Khrone is actually going to kill or beat Raven, since there's only been refutes and not an actual reasoning. I wish I had time to respond to everything tho.

@Ben

It's not hard. The primary schools of magic are easy to explain as they are simple elemental manipulation+Life and death. Shadow Magic isn't hard either since WoG and in-game they explain what shadow Magic does numerous times over to the point it gets annoying. Then after that there's just enchantment spells, Aura spells and polymorph spells and non-magic abilities. I'll make a massive blog when I'm done with everything irl
 
Oh, and Khorne being willing to nuke the concept of light and order on the scale the Raven embodies it if he needs too. Raven's multiverse is smaller than Khorne's, so he's more than capable of it.
 
Zenkaibattery1 said:
Bartleby vs Khorne would have been more decisive

Either he sings the Titanic Lullaby or Khorne would use the sword then
Click to expand...
Depends on what Titanic Lullaby does and that's assuming Khorne doesn't null it.
 
Azathoth has elaborated above and it is near infinite.

Near infinite isn't really a thing. And that doesn't really elaborate anything as Raven's multiverse has similar statements about it it seems.
 
Azathoth has elaborated above and it is near infinite. Near infinite isn't really a thing. And that doesn't really elaborate anything as Raven's multiverse has similar statements about it it seems.
Wokistan and Azathoth's Warhammer quote texts elaborated that the verse is near infinity. Near infinite isn't really a thing - no, true as this is a case by case analysis and some in fiction have this proven true.
 
The Titanic Lullaby is a song, that while, it can't affect mortals, it can affect gods stronger than Bartleby himself. It's a song that originally put the titans into an eternal sleep, and it was stated the song could also work on Grandfather Spider. The Player could use it on a character possibly 2 infinites stronger than him albiet with prep time

tl;dr

It's a song that puts the opponent into an eternal sleep, even those that don't require it and have infinite stamina; works on type 5 acasual conceptual beings

Edit: It's likely derived from The Song of Creation which a power that likely is from The Creator himself
 
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