Goku vs Vegeta (Redux)

[The_Calaca]

Not really. I'm voting Goku despite that I like Vegeta over him. The difference is hilarious tbh.

I'm voting Goku because he's more versatile with his techniques and has better fighting skills. He has been fighting since he was a child like Vegeta, but he had lot of teachers to show him the right way unlike Vegeta whose skill comes from matching Goku and training with Whis which is something Goku did as well.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I was assuming none of their abilities change if Toriyama made them fight.

I'm merely pointing out how the characters are honestly identical in fighting powers except for when the plot demands they don't be. People are voting for one clone to win against another.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I was assuming none of their abilities change if Toriyama made them fight.
I'm merely pointing out how the characters are honestly identical in fighting powers except for when the plot demands they don't be. People are voting for one clone to win against another.

What even is this take?

The point of a versus battle is to test and match two characters by taking and comparing and contrasting their feats and statements.

Authorial intent has no say whatsoever in a vs debate, why would you even make the assumption that it does?

And to state that one character is a clone of another is just insulting to both of these characters and their accomplishments, not to mention inaccurate.


Goku wins this match-up because he has superior fighting skills and a more versatile list of abilities.

 

[The_Calaca]

We're not using Toriyama's mindset in Vs Battles. We have Big Mom winning against Whitebeard despite the latter being depicted as the strongest character in the verse because we use our standards in a neutral battle.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

"What is explicitly stated is that their forms are equal, that's all, same strenght, therefore, only skills and ability will help them here and Goku is vastly better with both."

By the anime director it was stated it was Vegeta's SSBE is 'about the same' as Kaio-Ken (https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1028025720751017984) and to consider it as such. This doesn't imply that SSBE is equal to Kaio-Ken. It implies that they are around the same level of strength (i.e it could be stronger or weaker but still roughly around the same level).

I will, for now, concede on the idea that SSBE is completely equal to Kaio-Ken (even though that's blatantly false when Vegeta grew stronger after being depicted equal to SSBKK Goku)

"Cell never had a full power kamehameha used against him until the cell game and what did happen when it was used against him ? he got his top blown clean off and died against Gohan's, so yeah, going by feat, the kamehemeha is actualy even better rather than an equal.

Also it didn't scare Cell, he stood there, took the final flash, faked being in trouble, then smirked, regenerated and Vegeta saw he was completly screwed.

At equal power, nothing say just exploding his energy would stop the Kienzan and if he use the final atonement, GG, he is now stuck in base form and Goku either speedblitz and one shot or use the kienzan hexa blade again because it cost almost nothing to be used, also if Goku used the Taiyoken, Vegeta wouldn't see it to begin with."

https://youtu.be/ugdge3Cn9L0?t=343

Half of Cell's body is blown off by Ascended SS Vegeta using the Final Flash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg1bCXFLKdY

A vastly more powerful Goku using the Instant Kamehameha could only blow apart the upper half of Cell's body. Half of Goku's power at this level of strength was enough to make Vegeta enraged at how Goku surpassed him and Goku explicitly tells Vegeta, to his face, that he is stronger than Vegeta.

So, a vastly weaker Vegeta with the Final Flash can blow apart half of Cell's upper body. A vastly more powerful Goku with a Super Kamehameha could blow up the upper half of Cell's body entirely. Cell was completely prepared for Vegeta's Final Flash whereas Cell was shocked by Goku's instant transmission.

Cell also required Vegeta to blast his back and Goku to motivate Gohan for Gohan to destroy Cell. Gohan was also at least equal to Cell considering his Kamehameha fighting back and forth with Cell's own Kamehameha. Whereas Vegeta was vastly weaker to Cell in every way.

Your argument about 'Final Kamehameha' is also complete nonsense. Goku and Vegeta use Galick Kamehameha in the Broly film and the Galick Gun has been consistently used alongside the Kamehameha in the past.

"Yes, we saw the same thing, Babidi isn't even killed by it, while Buu isn't even close to have his Regenerationn overwhelmed and it left tons of head sized chunk and Buu doesn't even care, AKA it was far from ever being a dangers to him."

Okay so you are essentially claiming that: A. Vegeta is too weak to kill Babidi

B. Vegeta blowing MAJIN BUU into countless chunks means nothing

Can you explain to me how Goku is going to survive being blown into chunks?

"Except he litteraly never killed anyone massively stronger than him with it, Buu was nowhere near in danger and GoD Toppo was knocked out but nowhere near being killed."

He blew Majin Buu into chunks and overpowered Toppo's strongest Hakai sphere (used in the ToP). He also wouldn't have been trying to kill Toppo in the first place due to the rulings.

I hope you realise that, at this point, you are just arguing that Vegeta can't kill someone several times his power when, in this context, Goku and Vegeta are either equal or Vegeta is stronger than him.

"Also once again, Goku has better and easier to use insta kills option that Vegeta doesn't have while having none of the set back of the final atonement."

What? What options? The Kienzan? Vegeta can use it as well. He might not have the Hexa Blade variant but he can sure as hell use it.

"It's not reasonable because Vegeta litteraly power through his defense, C17 was never able to overwhelm them directly so Toppo clearly keep his defense to the max."

What are you even saying here? What 'defense'? Do you mean the GoD aura that Vegeta tore through with raw power? Do you mean Vegeta overpowering Toppo's strongest Hakai sphere used?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I would also like to raise the argument that, while it tends to be ignored when the plot demands it, the Kaio-Ken DOES strain Goku's body to use for long periods of time. Whereas Vegeta's SSBE has never (anime nor manga) been depicted as having any stamina or strain problems.

Goku will grow weaker as the fight wears on while Vegeta should stay relatively the same strength.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

There's also the fact that Goku can be knocked out of Kaio-Ken. That would leave Vegeta an opening to inflict a good deal of damage before Goku is able to enter it again.

 

[HST_Master]

There's also the fact that Goku can be knocked out of Kaio-Ken. That would leave Vegeta an opening to inflict a good deal of damage before Goku is able to enter it again.

It barely takes him amy time to go back into Kaioken unlike Vegeta falling to base if he uses Final Explosion which would leave him to be one shotted.

 

[Dragomer]

'By the anime director it was stated it was Vegeta's SSBE is 'about the same' as Kaio-Ken (https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1028025720751017984) and to consider it as such. This doesn't imply that SSBE is equal to Kaio-Ken. It implies that they are around the same level of strength (i.e it could be stronger or weaker but still roughly around the same level).

I will, for now, concede on the idea that SSBE is completely equal to Kaio-Ken (even though that's blatantly false when Vegeta grew stronger after being depicted equal to SSBKK Goku)'

Yes, it doesn't imply it, it states it directly and if you try to play the 'what he really meant game !' he say Kaioken, not Kaioken X 20 so Goku would be vastly stronger.

So you final conceide to what is the obvious truth but still throw a 'i don't believe comment to save face' ? whatever, fine by me, they are equal.

'https://youtu.be/ugdge3Cn9L0?t=343

Half of Cell's body is blown off by Ascended SS Vegeta using the Final Flash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg1bCXFLKdY

A vastly more powerful Goku using the Instant Kamehameha could only blow apart the upper half of Cell's body. Half of Goku's power at this level of strength was enough to make Vegeta enraged at how Goku surpassed him and Goku explicitly tells Vegeta, to his face, that he is stronger than Vegeta.

So, a vastly weaker Vegeta with the Final Flash can blow apart half of Cell's upper body. A vastly more powerful Goku with a Super Kamehameha could blow up the upper half of Cell's body entirely. Cell was completely prepared for Vegeta's Final Flash whereas Cell was shocked by Goku's instant transmission.

Cell also required Vegeta to blast his back and Goku to motivate Gohan for Gohan to destroy Cell. Gohan was also at least equal to Cell considering his Kamehameha fighting back and forth with Cell's own Kamehameha. Whereas Vegeta was vastly weaker to Cell in every way.

Your argument about 'Final Kamehameha' is also complete nonsense. Goku and Vegeta use Galick Kamehameha in the Broly film and the Galick Gun has been consistently used alongside the Kamehameha in the past.'

And then Cell smirk and regenerate and everything is done to show that it never had any hope to work, it isn't portrayed as 'damn, if only Vegeta aimed a little to the left !'

Except that 1 : it blew it clean off unlike what Vegeta did and 2 : The Kamehameha only ever touch Cell's upper body and it destroy every part it touched.

No, a weaker Vegeta (not vastly, other the Cell Jr would have one shotted him since they can put the hurt on Goku) managed to have Cell bluff him into thinking his attack did anything before he smirked, regenerated and no sold everything.

Yes, Cell was shocked by Goku's kamehameha, which indicate more that Goku's technique is superior to the final flash rather than the other way around.

Vegeta blasting Cell was litteraly just a distraction and if you were right, Vegeta could have just used the final flash and Cell would have been obliterated but you clearly aren't right.

And if the final flash is so superior, why didn't Cell use it to blow away Gohan and his kamehameha ? oh yeah, cause you're wrong.

Yeah, the two attack being shown as identical and as two equal part of a technique is nonsense, Nagamine is nonsense and everything is nonsense except your nonsense obviously.

In the past meaning 'the saiyan saga' and that's all and once again, Kamehameha is adaptable, unlike the galick gun and the final flash, Goku can use it as an equivalent to both.

'Okay so you are essentially claiming that: A. Vegeta is too weak to kill Babidi

B. Vegeta blowing MAJIN BUU into countless chunks means nothing

Can you explain to me how Goku is going to survive being blown into chunks?'

No, i am claiming that the attack is much weaker than you're trying to portray it as.

Yes, it mean nothing, Buu let almost be blown into chunk by everything because he doesn't care, unless we see him panick , we have no reason to believe it had any chance of working.

Goku wouldn't be blown into chunks, it didn't even blow Toppo into chunks and they are all relative to each other in power.

Also it's easy as hell to dodge compared to any other technique they have.

'He blew Majin Buu into chunks and overpowered Toppo's strongest Hakai sphere (used in the ToP). He also wouldn't have been trying to kill Toppo in the first place due to the rulings.

I hope you realise that, at this point, you are just arguing that Vegeta can't kill someone several times his power when, in this context, Goku and Vegeta are either equal or Vegeta is stronger than him.'

Which as i already said, meaning nothing, Buu let everything blow holes into him or blow him up, he doesn't care.

It litteraly never managed to do so so yeah, no reason to believe it can kill someone stronger and Toppo isn't massively stronger, they are relative in power.

Except that the final atonement is 'all or nothing' attack, Vegeta can't blow away all his energy while not doing it.'

No, in this context, either they are equal or Goku is stronger, Nagamine said 'Kaioken', not 'Kaioken x 20' so if we play the 'what he really meant' game, you ain't winning.

'What? What options? The Kienzan? Vegeta can use it as well. He might not have the Hexa Blade variant but he can sure as hell use it.'

You mean the annecdotal pseudo use he had decades ago ? he probably forgot the technique by now.

Kienzan hexa blade, instant tranmission either combined with mines (it forced Jiren to dodge, Vegeta ain't tanking that) or a point blank kamehameha, the Taiyoken, presumably the god bind, the mafuba etc, all of which are pretty fight ending moves or would open huge opportunity to use said fight ending moves and Vegeta pretty much has no counter for any of them, which combined with Goku's superior skill make it a decisive win for Goku.

 

[Demetreth93]

Vegetable FRA.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

It barely takes him amy time to go back into Kaioken unlike Vegeta falling to base if he uses Final Explosion which would leave him to be one shotted.

If Vegeta knocks Goku out of KK when exchanging blows and gets even only one or two strikes, he's still going to deal quite a bit of damage. The difference between Goku's SSB and Vegeta's SSBE is pretty substantial considering that Goku needs a 20x multiplier to match Vegeta's performance level.

 

[The_Calaca]

Geets should be quite weaker. I don't think the SSBE is a 20x multiplier considering Goku went through two limit breaks so if he loses the state for an instant and Goku capitalizes that he'll get knocked out with more ease.

BTW SSBE's manga counterpart is the Perfect Blue which has a stamina problem. IIRC Cryo said the opposite which is untrue.

 

[Dragomer]

I would also like to raise the argument that, while it tends to be ignored when the plot demands it, the Kaio-Ken DOES strain Goku's body to use for long periods of time. Whereas Vegeta's SSBE has never (anime nor manga) been depicted as having any stamina or strain problems.
Goku will grow weaker as the fight wears on while Vegeta should stay relatively the same strength.

Goku litteraly use it for longer than Vegeta SSJBE and is in a better state than Vegeta after they both fall out of their transformation.

and the kaioken's strain isn't ignored as the plot demands, Goku just overcame the stress up to that level, which is why he doesn't get any of the drawback of when he used it against Hit.

so if anything, it's Vegeta who will grow weaker and once he is out of the form, we have no indication he can even go back to it, unlike Goku.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Geets should be quite weaker. I don't think the SSBE is a 20x multiplier considering Goku went through two limit breaks so if he loses the state for an instant and Goku capitalizes that he'll get knocked out with more easily.

I'm a tad confused here.

Last, I checked, SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are roughly on par. Hence, Goku's regular SSB should not be up to the same level as Vegeta's SSBE. Also, Vegeta losing the state for an instant? Vegeta never shown being knocked out of the state until after he used up the vast majority of his power and stamina with Final Explosion.

 

[The_Calaca]

What I mean is that Vegeta's SSB should be weaker than Goku's. They were roughly on par before the ToP began, but Goku broke his limits twice (or once, I don't remember that part) and was able to be more of a opponent to Jiren the more he grew in power while Vegeta only broke his limits when he achieved the SSBE and when he defeated Toppo. But at that point Goku did used UIO 1 and 2. If we discount Toppo's fight Goku still has his two Limit Breaks while Vegeta has one coming from unlocking the SSBE.

With two limits broken Goku with SSBKKx20 is comparable to Vegeta with SSBE but that doesn't mean Vegeta's SSB is equal to Goku's SSB. It makes zero sense so the correct assumption is that SSBE is a much bigger boost than KK.

Vegeta could lose the state with Final Explosion, I didn't say he'd lose it just being knocked down.

In a few words, I find the distance between SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta shorter than the distance between SSB Vegeta and SSBKKx20 Goku.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Ok, got it and agreed. There should be quite of difference between their SSB forms.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

SSB Goku should be stronger than SSB Vegeta but every instance of SSBE Vegeta has been shown as being, at least, equal to SSBKK Goku.

Vegeta also astounded Belmod with the Final Flash to such an extent that Belmod questioned how a Saiyan could have such power (this is after UIO Goku and SS2 Kefla). This was SSB Vegeta using the Final Flash.

Vegeta also spent several months in the time chamber prior to the ToP so it's plausible that he would be stronger than Pre-UIO Goku. How much stronger is an unknown though.

We also have to consider that SSBE is literally called Vegeta's own version of 'breaking out of his shell' by Whis and the Grand Priest. So this is Vegeta breaking his limits which may have given him a huge power increase like UIO did for Goku and Jiren's own limit break.

 

[The_Calaca]

What I said is that SSBE is clearly a stronger amp when compared to SSBKKx20 and the UIO but in this case they are equal and Vegeta, altough not as much as I initially thought, is weaker than Goku in same forms.

You're using the Final Flash like Goku couldn't just IT out of the way. It could be all the powerful you say, I don't disagree with that, but it's like saying that Goku couldn't just sidestep considering the time it tooks to charge the attack.

I also have some doubts about the FF being that powerful against Cell but that's something I can't verify without reading the manga. But for Belmod's statement I have no arguments. I see it's legit.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

"You're using the Final Flash like Goku couldn't just IT out of the way. It could be all the powerful you say, I don't disagree with that, but it's like saying that Goku couldn't just sidestep considering the time it tooks to charge the attack."

Yeah, he can't. If Goku could just IT he would do it more often. He has even been hit by his own blasts being deflected while he was in Ultra Instinct.

Vegeta's Final Flash would absolutely hit Goku if Goku doesn't react before it fires. I also have to question the idea of him just 'side stepping' it when Vegeta has combined the Final Flash with Goku's Kamehameha and also with the Kamehameha and Galick Gun in the anime. Would you claim that Goku and Trunks intentionally charged their attacks slowly JUST to merge with Vegeta's Final Flash? He has also used it to clash with opponents like Katopesla who, while not particularly strong, is strong enough to briefly hold off a Final Flash from SS Vegeta. This implies some fraction of SS Vegeta's speed and power at least.

"I also have some doubts about the FF being that powerful against Cell but that's something I can't verify without reading the manga. But for Belmod's statement I have no arguments. I see it's legit."

You could always argue that Cell intentionally held back enough for it to blow half his upper body off but I don't recall any statements confirming this or implying this. It's a feat comparable to a vastly more powerful Goku (who is seemingly more powerful than Vegeta at just half power) using a Super Kamehameha and blowing apart a shocked Cell's upper half.

 

[Kiryu2012]

Is it even necessary to equalize speed?

Not voting yet, but currently feeling like Goku should win.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Goku litteraly use it for longer than Vegeta SSJBE and is in a better state than Vegeta after they both fall out of their transformation.

and the kaioken's strain isn't ignored as the plot demands, Goku just overcame the stress up to that level, which is why he doesn't get any of the drawback of when he used it against Hit.

so if anything, it's Vegeta who will grow weaker and once he is out of the form, we have no indication he can even go back to it, unlike Goku.

"Goku litteraly use it for longer than Vegeta SSJBE and is in a better state than Vegeta after they both fall out of their transformation."

And, when did this happen? Do you mean after Vegeta used the Final Explosion which is outright stated to drain the vast majority of his energy...even though Vegeta could still use SSBE afterwards?

"and the kaioken's strain isn't ignored as the plot demands, Goku just overcame the stress up to that level, which is why he doesn't get any of the drawback of when he used it against Hit"

Yes, it is. Krillin states that Goku "should be capable" of using X20 against Jiren after training, sure but a few episodes later we have the Kaio-Ken being noted as 'risky' and 'dangerous' to use when Goku was weakened after facing Jiren. Whereas Vegeta could use SSBE even after using Final Explosion.

X10 against Hit could only be used for a few seconds before Goku was left unable to wield ki properly for a few days yet Goku with less than a year of training afterwards can suddenly use X20 with little to no ill effect until SUDDENLY it's an issue against Kefla when he lacks stamina.

"so if anything, it's Vegeta who will grow weaker and once he is out of the form, we have no indication he can even go back to it, unlike Goku."

https://youtu.be/BxK1xxiHJvE?t=829

Vegeta entering SSBE at will after draining almost all of his energy with Final Explosion.

 

[MrLuk2000]

Bump