Goku vs Princess (Adversary)

[Eden_Warlock99]

The Adversary (Fierce Vessel) is used
Post-second Ultra Instinct -Sign- Awakening/Broly Saga Goku is used
Speed is equal
Battle takes in the Construct
(Goku on a path in the woods and the Princess in the cabin)
Goku is given surface knowledge on the Princess

Princess Princess: 0

Son Goku (UI Edition): 0

Incon: 0​

 

[koopa3144]

So, does Goku have knowledge of the Princesses Subjective Reality? Cause if not He can sense her Ki and tell she's massively weaker than him which will weaken her a lot.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So, does Goku have knowledge of the Princesses Subjective Reality? Cause if not He can sense her Ki and tell she's massively weaker than him which will weaken her a lot.

Pretty sure Goku sensing the Princess would count as him perceiving her in someway, so it'd also be based on what he'd expect to sense from the Adversary, who from his knowledge, is a threat to the world and will end it if she escapes, and like, supressing and lowering your ki is something Goku knows is possible.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

peak

 

[Ednaxel2]

He might be Gokuversal, but is he Princessversal?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"Hey Princess! I heard you were pretty strong!"

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I went to look at the princess's profile and it's a very large profile, if i played for about 30 minutes of reading, i jumped straight to the main tier and hax

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I went to look at the princess's profile and it's a very large profile, if i played for about 30 minutes of reading, i jumped straight to the main tier and hax

Yeah, she's like 13 characters in one profile lol. Her base form and the Adversary key are the only ones that are important here tho

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Yeah, she's like 13 characters in one profile lol. Her base form and the Adversary key are the only ones that are important here tho

I understand

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I guess this match is gonna test the waters to see how viable the princesses are to argue against stronger opponents via their SR since it's technically up to low 1-C smurf hax but it all depends on opponents perception.

 

[koopa3144]

Goku is probably gonna see The Adversary as stronger than his base due to being given knowledge of Princesses being a threat to the world. This likely comes down to whether Goku would think Kaio-ken x4 would be enough to take out the The Adversary or not.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

For the record, this version of the Princess shares a similar passion for combat as Goku, viewing it as a means to surpass her limits and craving it above all else.
The first thing she'd say upon hearing Goku would be "Is that another challenger? Finally. It's been ages since I've had a good fight."
Additionally, she'd only start the fight once Goku is ready, and even if he’s downed, she’ll patiently wait for him to get back up and attack her before continuing the fight.
So, I could see Goku focusing more on enjoying the fight rather than actually trying to kill the Princess outright.

 

[koopa3144]

For the record, this version of the Princess shares a similar passion for combat as Goku, viewing it as a means to surpass her limits and craving it above all else.
The first thing she'd say upon hearing Goku would be "Is that another challenger? Finally. It's been ages since I've had a good fight."
Additionally, she'd only start the fight once Goku is ready, and even if he’s downed, she’ll patiently wait for him to get back up and attack her before continuing the fight.
So, I could see Goku focusing more on enjoying the fight rather than actually trying to kill the Princess outright.

Even if Goku enjoys fighting her, Goku still knows the Princess is a threat to the world. He'll probably K.O her instead of outright killing her in hopes they could fight again..

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Anyway, since this is her Fierce Vessel version, the Adversary would also start with a somewhat fast-acting Regeneration (Low-Mid) and Infinite stamina,
I can put her in her normal Adversary form if those two put the fight too much in her favor, where she'd have to make Goku think she can't die for her to attain them

 

[Qawsedf234]

If we're going by the OP the fight is already over

Her nature is to become what others perceive her to be. If you actually knew what she was, if you knew her capabilities, a single intrusive thought could have instantly ended the entire world.

What do you mean a single intrusive thought could have instantly ended the world?

It's simple, really: 'She can become whatever people perceive her to be? That's easy! I'll just will her into something really small! But wait, what if I accidentally will her into something that ends the world. Oh no, what if just thinking that—

But you wouldn't have finished your hypothetical thought, because she would have already destroyed the world.

Luckily for you, as you are now, you won't be able to will her into anything. You don't work the way a living being does. Not anymore.

King Kai saying that she can destroy the universe would likely put Goku on a downward spiral of stealth amping the Princess with move sets and abilities that he wouldn't be able to deal with. Like how the LQ accidently gave her immortality by just thinking she can't die once.

? Cause if not He can sense her Ki and tell she's massively weaker than him which will weaken her a lot.

I don't really agree, when Goku couldn't sense the Androids he was shocked but didn't think they weren't a threat because he was warned by Trunks. Combined with like, the SBA on their mind sets

Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

I don't think Goku would in-character underestimate her like that.

Like even thinking "Can she fly as well?" would give her the ability to fly, since its a single thought. He would have to consistently view her as only weak and beneath him with no contradicting ideas against it, or kill her fast enough that those thoughts wouldn't happen. Personally speaking while that can happen, especially with a blitz or something like that, I think Goku has more going against him than for him. Since viewing her as a dangerous enemy will only make raise her strength and at a certain point the fight becomes unwinnable to Goku.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't think Goku is really the type of person to let paranoia cloud his judgment tho

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think Goku is really the type of person to let paranoia cloud his judgment tho

I wouldn't say paranoia, just the process of him knowing his opponent is dangerous combined with trying to figure out what they can do. Which just leaves him open to a snow ball.

 

[AThe1412]

So would someone who often underestimates their opponent be a hard counter to the Princess?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So would someone who often underestimates their opponent be a hard counter to the Princess?

Consistently, yes. The main issue being stray thoughts that empower her, since that will consistently make her stronger and more dangerous. Additionally a robot with no aspects of free will would also hard counter the power.

 

[AThe1412]

Consistently, yes. The main issue being stray thoughts that empower her, since that will consistently make her stronger and more dangerous. Additionally a robot with no aspects of free will would also hard counter the power.

I guess it takes a short amount of time for her to adapt to someone's thoughts too?

 

[koopa3144]

I guess it takes a short amount of time for her to adapt to someone's thoughts too?

Iirc as soon as you preserve her in a current way, she changes to fit that perception instantly.

 

[Jaften]

Goku is doomed. He's already been told "this person is a threat to the universe", so he's gonna assume the Princess is Strong with a capital S. Like, at least as strong as Vegeta, probably stronger. When she shows no fear of defeat, he's gonna assume "she's holding back," which will become true. Goku is confident but not without doubt. He's needed pep talks and encouragement from others before to keep going in big fights. His doubt will be his undoing. "But he was told not to doubt himself!" Yeah, the thing about doubt is that it's an intrusive thought. You're not in control of the doubt, you're in control of whether you let it control your actions. But the fact that he has doubts at all is enough to sink his chances at victory against the Princess.

He might have had a chance if he was told "she's just an ordinary princess don't worry", but he was told "she's very dangerous and will end the universe".

 

[AigerTheKing]

Princess slays lil monkey FRA

 

[Jaften]

I thought of two important questions.

1) Is the Shifting Mound in play? If yes, does the Shifting Mound yoink the Adversary if she leaves the Cabin?

2) If yes, does that count as a win for Goku or an incon? Goku can't hope to even harm the Shifting Mound much less defeat her, and SM won't let Goku destroy a precious Vessel so he can't win. Goku also can't leave the Void and SM has no reason to kill Goku, so does Goku win, does SM send him to another version of the Construct, or are they just in stalemate?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Think including the Shifting Mound would make her yoinking the Adversary the only possible conclusion here, I don't see Goku being able to keep the fight in cabin

 

[Jaften]

Think including the Shifting Mound would make her yoinking the Adversary the only possible conclusion here, I don't see Goku being able to keep the fight in cabin

Okay, but is that even a wincon? And what happens to Goku after the reality of the Construct falls apart? Can he even survive in the Void?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Okay, but is that even a wincon? And what happens to Goku after the reality of the Construct fall apart? Can he even survive in the Void?

I'm pretty sure Goku would just get erased from existence.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

This might just be a stomp TBH. Might be better next time to put her in a neutral environment without influence of Shifting Mound (yeeting her) if that's even possible.

 

[DMUA]

If we're going by the OP the fight is already over

(I feel as though this match may not be very admissible with this in mind)

And what happens to Goku after the reality of the Construct fall apart? Can he even survive in the Void?

(And definitely this, even if there was no EE of any form in play Saiyans can't survive without oxygen)

 

[Apeironaxim]

Another question becomes if Adversary getting dragged out means an instant win for Goku. She's BFR'd with no chance of coming back, if that, since can't you argue SM like, absorbs them rather than pure BFR, so even trying to argue "Goku dies before BFR timer runs out meaning an incon is the best conclusion you can get" might not be valid if it doesn't count as pure BFR rather than absorption, but again that entirely depends how you treat SM dragging the aspects

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Another question becomes if Adversary getting dragged out means an instant win for Goku. She's BFR'd with no chance of coming back, if that, since can't you argue SM like, absorbs them rather than pure BFR, so even trying to argue "Goku dies before BFR timer runs out meaning an incon is the best conclusion you can get" might not be valid

It's not even really BFR. The Shifting Mound would still be relatively "nearby" enough for Goku to know. Plus Goku would just be erased anyways since it's the entire universe/reality being destroyed here.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This might just be a stomp TBH. Might be better next time to put her in a neutral environment without influence of Shifting Mound (yeeting her) if that's even possible.

It's kinda outside help, so we could restrict it, I believe

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It's kinda outside help, so we could restrict it, I believe

Not really. Considering the SM is the princesses true form. Still a part of their normal "abilities".

 

[Jaften]

I think we should also get rid of the intro of telling Goku "she's super danger and gonna end the universe". Just give him the same opening the Hero gets on a new run. Just have the Narrator voice be King Kai instead so he can't interfere directly in any way (King Kai also wouldn't know as much as the Narrator does about the Princess so he wouldn't be as meddlesome.)

Granted, even with those changes, I think Goku still loses more often than not, for mostly the same reasons as before.

 

[Apeironaxim]

It's not even really BFR. The Shifting Mound would still be relatively "nearby" enough for Goku to know. Plus Goku would just be erased anyways since it's the entire universe/reality being destroyed here.

this depends on how you wanna argue it, since Goku is technically fighting the Adversary. So if a true self yoinks away an avatar, and that avatar is the explicit target of the match, and it never returns, does that count as BFR of the opponent?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah, I'll retcon what King Kai says
Do yall think changing the version for Goku would be better or should I keep it at Saiyan Saga btw?

 

[Jaften]

Actually the Narrator should be present, he's not part of Long Quiet, he's a function of the Construct. He always disappears when the Construct dissolves.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Actually the Narrator should be present, he's not part of Long Quiet, he's a function of the Construct. He always disappears when the Construct dissolves.

Dunno if Narrator can help at all anyways since he's well aware only the TLQ can truly defeat the Princess (shifting mound).

 

[Jaften]

Yeah, I'll retcon what King Kai says
Do yall think changing the version for Goku would be better or should I keep it at Saiyan Saga btw?

I think Ultra Instinct Goku actually has the best chance of defeating the Princess under current conditions, because he can fight without extraneous thought. If doesn't remove the problem Goku has (prior to the fighting especially, he'll still form assumptions about the Princess that likely won't help him), nor guarantee a win at all, but it helps the most.

That, or Oozaru Goku, who has the most primitive thoughts.

 

[Jaften]

We also need to bring up that merely striking down the Princess doesn't kill her, you need to be convinced she's dead. Any doubt that she's actually dead will lead to her not actually being dead.