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Gohan vs Kefla Rematch

SH: Ultimate Gohan seemed like he was fine fighting Gamma who is SSB tier but he wasn't stomping him. While Kefla was able to fight UIO Goku, said his hits were weak, and was stated to be able to one shot Goku with her ki blast. ToP SSB < SSBKKx20 < UIO. Even if we low ball UIO and say it was only 2x stronger than Goku's SSBKKx20, this still puts her LSS2 at > SSBx40, as opposed to Gohan still not stomping a SSBx1 tier guy. Unless Gohan's ultimate form got 40x stronger, I'd say he get rinsed here. Vote Kefla.
 
WarriorofMite said:
SH: Ultimate Gohan seemed like he was fine fighting Gamma who is SSB tier but he wasn't stomping him. While Kefla was able to fight UIO Goku, said his hits were weak, and was stated to be able to one shot Goku with her ki blast. ToP SSB < SSBKKx20 < UIO. Even if we low ball UIO and say it was only 2x stronger than Goku's SSBKKx20, this still puts her LSS2 at > SSBx40, as opposed to Gohan still not stomping a SSBx1 tier guy. Unless Gohan's ultimate form got 40x stronger, I'd say he get rinsed here. Vote Kefla.
Click to expand...
ToP SSB =/ Super Hero SSB
 
Dr._whiteee said:
ToP SSB =/ Super Hero SSB
Click to expand...
I took that into consideration.

Gamma = SH: SSB tier. Which is comparable to SH: Ultimate Gohan.
LSS2 Kefla = ToP: SSB x 40+ tier or more.

So this means the blue tiers and by extension, Ultimate Gohan, must have gotten over 40 times stronger to be near her. Do you think SH: SSB Goku/Vegeta/Gammas/U Gohan got > 40x stronger since ToP?
 
WarriorofMite said:
I took that into consideration.

Gamma = SH: SSB tier. Which is comparable to SH: Ultimate Gohan.
LSS2 Kefla = ToP: SSB x 40+ tier or more.

So this means the blue tiers and by extension, Ultimate Gohan, must have gotten over 40 times stronger to be near her. Do you think SH: SSB Goku/Vegeta/Gammas/U Gohan got > 40x stronger since ToP?
Click to expand...
This is complicated by the lack of clear distinction of when SH occurs. We know, for instance, that Goku and Vegeta got stronger in between ToP and the Broly movie for instance. We also know that SSB Goku got stronger from say, the Frieza movie, up unto the ToP.

I also don't think hardcapping the Gamma duo to ToP SSB level is quite accurate either as they could on SSBE/SSBKK level for all we know given the statements.

Heck, even pre ToP Gohan was able to combat SSB Goku and was only overpowered by SSBKK, and Gohan obviously improved leaps and bounds over the course of the ToP.

So it's overall, really hard to tell.
 
the gamma's aren't SSB tier. Orange Piccolo is apparently seen as SSB tier, and the Gammas couldn't so much as scratch him, but that's beside the point

Ultimate Gohan is touted as being on par with Orange Piccolo, who is SSB tier, who are unquantifiably stronger than their ToP selves
If we generously scale current SSB to be as strong as SSBKK and Evo Blue from the ToP, and if we scale those forms to Second UIO Goku, then Gohan would be comparable to Second UIO Goku, possibly stronger/weaker depending on how you interpret the scaling

Kefla was blatantly stated to be capable of 1 shotting Second UIO Goku, to the extent that Goku couldn't afford to take a single hit lest he gets vaporized, and she was almost completely unaffected by his skateboard Kamehameha, only losing due to getting knocked offstage and then defusing

So overall, my vote's on Kefla. Gohan's skill advantage doesn't matter here since Kefla was already capable of fighting against Goku, who outskills Gohan regardless
 
why do people say that Gohan outskills?
Kefla was fighting solidly on par with SSGSSKKx20 Goku before he went UIO
Goku is shown to be pretty obviously superior to Gohan when it comes to combat experience and skill
You can argue that she was only winning cuz of her AP advantage, but at the time she didn't actually have the AP advantage

Not only that, Kefla's RE is leagues above Gohan's, as well as her rage power, so she will just outgrow him within minutes
 
eh, i vote gohan. he definitely got alot stronger since ToP and you know, overpowered and defeated cell max which had enough raw power to possibly defeat post-ToP goku, vegeta and also broly...

so the only way kefla wins is by assuming she is above ssj broly which she is NOT, like it's so simple bruh

gohan outskills and has way better AP, so gg gohan i vote him
 
Voting Gohan. He's got far more experience and much for levelheaded. Plus, I don't think Kelfa is strong enough to just overwhelm him.

Kefla on the other hand as several key disadvantages. She's on a time limit, it's possible if Gohan destroys the Potara, she'll defuse and Kefla is easily frustrated. Once she gets mad, her only tactics is to just pour everything into overwhelming offense. That can use up the energy keeping her fused up faster.

Given all of that, I think she'll make it hard on Gohan but he can leverage the situation against her.
 
Are people ignoring my points on purpose

I literally addressed both of your arguments in previous comments I made a while ago
 
Mickey1940 said:
Are people ignoring my points on purpose

I literally addressed both of your arguments in previous comments I made a while ago
Click to expand...
No, I literally didn't see your comment and I even looking at it now, your previous statement...my argument addresses more then even what you stated.

Going further, you believe that Kefla is that much stronger than Gohan. I don't, as Gohan kept training after the ToP and this is a guy who can go from being weaker than he was during the Buu Saga due to close to Goku's level of power in a short amount of time after some training. Given how old Pan is in DBS:SH (she's 3), Gohan's had at least a year or two to get stronger.

Also, Gohan is not Goku. Goku's approach to combat is not Gohan's and they are very different fighters. Goku does stuff by the seat of his pants while Gohan is better at forming a proper strategy. Shoot, Gohan's response to be blinded his to use his energy as radar to sidestep the issue. If he clashes with Kefla is at that level of disadvantage (assuming he's at that level of a disadvantage, if at all), he's not going to try and meet her head-on like Goku did, he's more likely to try and run the clock or destroy the earrings.

I say all of this, not to invalidate your argument, but to explain why I do not agree and why I stick by what I said.
 
C2_of_Omegon said:
No, I literally didn't see your comment and I even looking at it now, your previous statement...my argument addresses more then even what you stated.

Going further, you believe that Kefla is that much stronger than Gohan. I don't, as Gohan kept training after the ToP and this is a guy who can go from being weaker than he was during the Buu Saga due to close to Goku's level of power in a short amount of time after some training. Given how old Pan is in DBS:SH (she's 3), Gohan's had at least a year or two to get stronger.

Also, Gohan is not Goku. Goku's approach to combat is not Gohan's and they are very different fighters. Goku does stuff by the seat of his pants while Gohan is better at forming a proper strategy. Shoot, Gohan's response to be blinded his to use his energy as radar to sidestep the issue. If he clashes with Kefla is at that level of disadvantage (assuming he's at that level of a disadvantage, if at all), he's not going to try and meet her head-on like Goku did, he's more likely to try and run the clock or destroy the earrings.

I say all of this, not to invalidate your argument, but to explain why I do not agree and why I stick by what I said.
Click to expand...
Ultimate Gohan simply lacks the feats necessary to definitively say that he stronger than Kefla. Gohan was able to overwhelm Gamma 1, who is equal to Gamma 2, who couldn't make Orange Piccolo budge, who's on par with SSGSS Goku. That's really not looking good for Gohan, even if you count the extra years of training he got
Kefka on the other hand could fight on par with UIO2 Goku as a super saiyan, and was strong enough to 1 shot Goku if she landed the hit, with Goku only being able to dodgr due to Ultra Instinct, which Gohan doesn't have. Unless you can prove that Super Hero Goku is anywhere near UIO2, you're gonna have a problem defending Gohan's AP advantage
As for the Buu Saga training arc, he got a little stronger when using the Z Sword, yeah, but the ONLY reason why he could stand up to Buu was due to Elder Kai's power up. He can't achieve that kind of buff by himself, so saying that he can just RE to fusion levels makes no sense
Kefla on the other hand is half Caulifla, who got over 100 times stronger within a few seconds of fighting Goku and could adapt to his fighting style easily. Kefla was also stated to be continuously getting stronger after she was born

Skill wise, yeah ok cool Gohan is a better leader and tacticiin, and can lead his team super well. How is that gonna help him in a 1v1 fistfight? How is radar gonna help him against Kefla, someone who would just bunrush him in character? In an actual fight Gohan doesn't do anything particularly special. He never used his tactical mind against pretty much every enemy he's ever fought, like the Ginyus, Frieza, Cell, Buu, etc, he just tried to overpower them. In his most recent showings in the movie, he never outskilled anyone either. He overpowered Gamma 1, he didn't shotcall during the Cell Max fight despite being a "tactician", and once he went beast he just 1 shot him anyways.
He also blatantly lost his fight against Goku before the ToP despite being supposedly being smart. U know what Kefla did against Goku? Knock him the **** out thats what she did.

Saying that Gohan outskills cuz he's canonically a nerd is stupid. Kefla in her tiny amount of screen time has shown incredibly impressive feats of skill and technique that already rivals Gohan's 2 decades of screen time
 
Mickey1940 said:
Ultimate Gohan simply lacks the feats necessary to definitively say that he stronger than Kefla. Gohan was able to overwhelm Gamma 1, who is equal to Gamma 2, who couldn't make Orange Piccolo budge, who's on par with SSGSS Goku. That's really not looking good for Gohan, even if you count the extra years of training he got
Kefka on the other hand could fight on par with UIO2 Goku as a super saiyan, and was strong enough to 1 shot Goku if she landed the hit, with Goku only being able to dodgr due to Ultra Instinct, which Gohan doesn't have. Unless you can prove that Super Hero Goku is anywhere near UIO2, you're gonna have a problem defending Gohan's AP advantage
As for the Buu Saga training arc, he got a little stronger when using the Z Sword, yeah, but the ONLY reason why he could stand up to Buu was due to Elder Kai's power up. He can't achieve that kind of buff by himself, so saying that he can just RE to fusion levels makes no sense
Kefla on the other hand is half Caulifla, who got over 100 times stronger within a few seconds of fighting Goku and could adapt to his fighting style easily. Kefla was also stated to be continuously getting stronger after she was born

Skill wise, yeah ok cool Gohan is a better leader and tacticiin, and can lead his team super well. How is that gonna help him in a 1v1 fistfight? How is radar gonna help him against Kefla, someone who would just bunrush him in character? In an actual fight Gohan doesn't do anything particularly special. He never used his tactical mind against pretty much every enemy he's ever fought, like the Ginyus, Frieza, Cell, Buu, etc, he just tried to overpower them. In his most recent showings in the movie, he never outskilled anyone either. He overpowered Gamma 1, he didn't shotcall during the Cell Max fight despite being a "tactician", and once he went beast he just 1 shot him anyways.
He also blatantly lost his fight against Goku before the ToP despite being supposedly being smart. U know what Kefla did against Goku? Knock him the **** out thats what she did.

Saying that Gohan outskills cuz he's canonically a nerd is stupid. Kefla in her tiny amount of screen time has shown incredibly impressive feats of skill and technique that already rivals Gohan's 2 decades of screen time
Click to expand...
the thing is:

that SSGSS goku argument you got there... SSGSS goku in broly movie is already leagues above UIO in ToP.

and this gohan was stated by the author himself that he was stronger than goku and vegeta at that point

even if he wasn't stronger than post-broly UI, in pure power he scales massively above ToP. heck, i could even say he is comparable to full power jiren at this point and it wouldn't be that big of a stretch

your whole argument is that no one from universe 7 got stronger since ToP which is a absolute lie, so that's why we don't agree with you.

sorry
 
XVII said:
eh, i vote gohan. he definitely got alot stronger since ToP and you know, overpowered and defeated cell max which had enough raw power to possibly defeat post-ToP goku, vegeta and also broly...

so the only way kefla wins is by assuming she is above ssj broly which she is NOT, like it's so simple bruh

gohan outskills and has way better AP, so gg gohan i vote him
Click to expand...
This fight is Ultimate Gohan, not Beast Gohan.
 
XVII said:
the thing is:

that SSGSS goku argument you got there... SSGSS goku in broly movie is already leagues above UIO in ToP.

and this gohan was stated by the author himself that he was stronger than goku and vegeta at that point

even if he wasn't stronger than post-broly UI, in pure power he scales massively above ToP. heck, i could even say he is comparable to full power jiren at this point and it wouldn't be that big of a stretch

your whole argument is that no one from universe 7 got stronger since ToP which is a absolute lie, so that's why we don't agree with you.

sorry
Click to expand...
first of all, UIO2 is still very solidly above a vast majority of DB Super. Even as of the movies, Goku doesn't have the scaling necessary to surpass UIO2 with just reg SSGSS

Second of all, Orange Piccolo = SSGSS Goku or Vegeta >>>>>> Ultimate Gohan. Gohan was visibly struggling against the Gammas, while Orange Piccolo, who is stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta, literally didn't flinch against them

Third, uhhhh no SSGSS Goku is nowhere near FP Jiren

Fourth of all, we're using Ultimate Gohan, not Beast Gohan. So either way your argument is irrelevant
 
Mickey1940 said:
first of all, UIO2 is still very solidly above a vast majority of DB Super. Even as of the movies, Goku doesn't have the scaling necessary to surpass UIO2 with just reg SSGSS

Second of all, Orange Piccolo = SSGSS Goku or Vegeta >>>>>> Ultimate Gohan. Gohan was visibly struggling against the Gammas, while Orange Piccolo, who is stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta, literally didn't flinch against them

Third, uhhhh no SSGSS Goku is nowhere near FP Jiren

Fourth of all, we're using Ultimate Gohan, not Beast Gohan. So either way your argument is irrelevant
Click to expand...
why would ToP still be relevant power wise? do you really think they didn't get alot stronger since then? if i'm not mistaken goku is about 40x stronger scaling wise in the broly movie, though i might have to check that
 
XVII said:
why would ToP still be relevant power wise? do you really think they didn't get alot stronger since then? if i'm not mistaken goku is about 40x stronger scaling wise in the broly movie, though i might have to check that
Click to expand...
Goku and Vegeta became unquantifiably stronger since the ToP, not x40
and ToP scaling is relevant depending on how strong you consider SSGSS Goku to be
Gohan could handle a Gamma, who couldn't even make Piccolo move, who's DBS Super Hero SSGSS level
Kefla could have 1 shot UIO2 Goku who's far stronger than post-UIO1 SSGSS KKx20 Goku


The reason why Kefla can keep up in AP is because she scales far beyond an Ultra Instinct form, which VASTLY eclipses any SSGSS at the time

UIO2 should be relative to if not superior to post UIO2 SSGSS KKx20 Goku and SSGSSE Vegeta individually (no concrete evidence tho), and considering the amount of time that has past since the ToP, saying that they've surpassed that level of power in their ordinary Blue states shouldn't be impossible, but it's also kinda iffy since we don't have concrete evidence for this either
Meaning that, if we use the scaling chain again and assume that the previous 2 assumptions are true, Orange Piccolo should be relative to if not superior to Post UIO2 SSGSS KK x20 Goku and SSGSSE Vegeta individually, which Gohan BACKSCALES from due to having inferior feats compared to Orange Piccolo
Kefla UPSCALES from that due to being able to kill UIO2 Goku who is possibly relative to Post UIO2 SSGSS KK x20 Goku
meaning Kefla's stronger

Skill-wise, Gohan fought pre-ToP Goku and lost despite neither combatant having the skill advantage
Kefla fought a more experienced Goku and was keeping up with him over several skirmishes, and even after Goku used Kaioken, she still won despite him being stronger than her at the time
meaning Kefla is relative to if not straight up superior to Gohan skill wise

so yeah Kefla wins

even assuming their stats and skill are equal, Gohan has zero answer to Kefla's danmaku and vastly superior RE. Any advantage that Gohan has in this fight will be completely negated after seconds due to Kefla's RE, so even if everything I mentioned earlier is completely wrong, Kefla would just outgrow him and win.

So Kefla wins
 
So from what I can see the votes for Gohan are based on mere hearsay. I don't see hard evidence that he is strong enough to win and its seems others are just blindly "fra" Gohan with no substance or they think this is Beast Gohan, which, it is not. Feats show us Gohan had to get massively stronger to even have a chance and no one can prove that he did.
 
WarriorofMite said:
So from what I can see the votes for Gohan are based on mere hearsay. I don't see hard evidence that he is strong enough to win and its seems others are just blindly "fra" Gohan with no substance or they think this is Beast Gohan, which, it is not. Feats show us Gohan had to get massively stronger to even have a chance and no one can prove that he did.
Click to expand...
^ this
 
I vote for Kefla. I still believe that UIO2 Goku is superior to SSB Post ToP, and the raw potential from both Caulifla and Kale is greater than Gohan, in my opinion. This is in terms of growing during-battle through adaption, whereas Gohan primarily powers up through powerful emotional reactions. Even if Gohan is superior to Kefla in raw power, I think that gap is still small, and Kefla's more unique ki attacks would get the edge over Ultimate Gohan. Not that it really matters, since grace has begun.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
I vote for Kefla. I still believe that UIO2 Goku is superior to SSB Post ToP, and the raw potential from both Caulifla and Kale is greater than Gohan, in my opinion. This is in terms of growing during-battle through adaption, whereas Gohan primarily powers up through powerful emotional reactions. Even if Gohan is superior to Kefla in raw power, I think that gap is still small, and Kefla's more unique ki attacks would get the edge over Ultimate Gohan. Not that it really matters, since grace has begun.
Click to expand...
Grace doesn't start since no one is defending Gohan and all of the reasons why he wins have been invalidated and demonstrated to be incorrect
 
WarriorofMite said:
So you think Ultimate Gohan/ ToP SSB Goku beats LSS2 Kefla when UIO2 Goku could only ring her out and was stated to be 1-shot material for her?
Click to expand...
honestly? goku was at the verge of collapsing when he was fighting kefla that's why UI couldn't do much, he only restored some energy from vegeta before fighting jiren and all that.

even if UIO2 is < SSJ2 kefla, remember that gohan is, just like mickey said, unquantifiably stronger since ToP. goku needed to go kaioken to actually beat him before the tournament if i remember, so mystic gohan actually scales a bit above ssgss goku.

anyway, kefla has that "feat" because she without any fatigue was superior to a extremely fatigued goku, of course she would be bruh.

that's why i'm sussy on kefla > gohan since she only scales like that because she was in a better shape at the time.

and also, gohan is stronger since then, just like goku and the others so my vote goes to gohan. better experience, techniques (even if her danmaku is better) and overall a better physical condition.
 
XVII said:
honestly? goku was at the verge of collapsing when he was fighting kefla that's why UI couldn't do much, he only restored some energy from vegeta before fighting jiren and all that.

even if UIO2 is < SSJ2 kefla, remember that gohan is, just like mickey said, unquantifiably stronger since ToP. goku needed to go kaioken to actually beat him before the tournament if i remember, so mystic gohan actually scales a bit above ssgss goku.
Click to expand...
Unquantifiably stronger indeed. So you can't say for sure he's a lot stronger. However, Piccolo was able to give us at least some insight. He knows how to read power levels and would be very familiar with Gohan's power even in base. Yet, he made it a point that Gohan didn't seem stronger. Gohan informs us he had been practicing the SBC in secret. This doesn't mean he was training to get stronger. If Gohan did get stronger, than it was so small that Piccolo couldn't even sense the difference.

Gohan was comparable to SSB Goku Pre-ToP. There was no indicator Gohan was stronger. Goku didn't need KK to beat Gohan. Gohan specifically asked for Goku to use his full power. Even then, Gohan got 1-shot.

XVII said:
anyway, kefla has that "feat" because she without any fatigue was superior to a extremely fatigued goku, of course she would be bruh.

that's why i'm sussy on kefla > gohan since she only scales like that because she was in a better shape at the time.

and also, gohan is stronger since then, just like goku and the others so my vote goes to gohan. better experience, techniques (even if her danmaku is better) and overall a better physical condition.
Click to expand...
Caulifla and Kale had both been fighting before fusing too. Goku also didn't feel so exhausted that he couldn't use SS3 and SSG before they fused. Then fired off a Kamehameha with no visible signs of breathing heavy or looking tired. After that, he is forced to use SSB. During the fight Whis says that both of their powers are growing. Goku uses SSB KK and Kefla takes the hit, the same one that 1-shot Ultimate Gohan. That was against LSS1 Kelfa. She then knocks Goku back to base with a kick to the face. He uses UIO and lands a hit on Kefla that she says is weak. After all this she powers up even more with LSS2.

The Gammas are equal to SSB Goku. So a fight between them and Ultimate Gohan should be even. We see this fight in Super Hero and Gohan and the Gamma Android are in fact comparable to each other. So we can group SSB Goku, Ultimate Gohan, and Gamma together. Kefla has better feats than Gohan against SSB and stronger Goku with just her LSS1 form. She nearly ko'ed SSBKK Goku in a single kick while LSS1. That same Goku 1-shot Gohan. On top of all that, that was just LSS1 Kefla. She became a lot stronger after using LSS2. Kefla wins for sure.
 
XVII said:
honestly? goku was at the verge of collapsing when he was fighting kefla that's why UI couldn't do much, he only restored some energy from vegeta before fighting jiren and all that.

even if UIO2 is < SSJ2 kefla, remember that gohan is, just like mickey said, unquantifiably stronger since ToP. goku needed to go kaioken to actually beat him before the tournament if i remember, so mystic gohan actually scales a bit above ssgss goku.

anyway, kefla has that "feat" because she without any fatigue was superior to a extremely fatigued goku, of course she would be bruh.

that's why i'm sussy on kefla > gohan since she only scales like that because she was in a better shape at the time.

and also, gohan is stronger since then, just like goku and the others so my vote goes to gohan. better experience, techniques (even if her danmaku is better) and overall a better physical condition.
Click to expand...
1. Despite his fatigue, Goku was STILL STRONGER than Kefla as a SSGSS KKx20, and was still fighting on par with Kefla as a regular SSGSS, blocking all of her attacks. Yet Kefla still won lmao
2. Goku 1 shot him immediately after using KKx20
3. Kefla managed to win against someone who is stronger than her by a rather significant margin, something that Gohan failed to do against a weaker Goku
4. Read above
5. There's no way to prove that Gohan became that much stronger since the ToP. You're forgetting that UIO2 is literally infinitely above the Goku that Gohan lost to, yet Kefla was vastly superior to UIO2 strength wise.
 
WarriorofMite said:
Unquantifiably stronger indeed. So you can't say for sure he's a lot stronger. However, Piccolo was able to give us at least some insight. He knows how to read power levels and would be very familiar with Gohan's power even in base. Yet, he made it a point that Gohan didn't seem stronger. Gohan informs us he had been practicing the SBC in secret. This doesn't mean he was training to get stronger. If Gohan did get stronger, than it was so small that Piccolo couldn't even sense the difference.

Gohan was comparable to SSB Goku Pre-ToP. There was no indicator Gohan was stronger. Goku didn't need KK to beat Gohan. Gohan specifically asked for Goku to use his full power. Even then, Gohan got 1-shot.


Caulifla and Kale had both been fighting before fusing too. Goku also didn't feel so exhausted that he couldn't use SS3 and SSG before they fused. Then fired off a Kamehameha with no visible signs of breathing heavy or looking tired. After that, he is forced to use SSB. During the fight Whis says that both of their powers are growing. Goku uses SSB KK and Kefla takes the hit, the same one that 1-shot Ultimate Gohan. That was against LSS1 Kelfa. She then knocks Goku back to base with a kick to the face. He uses UIO and lands a hit on Kefla that she says is weak. After all this she powers up even more with LSS2.

The Gammas are equal to SSB Goku. So a fight between them and Ultimate Gohan should be even. We see this fight in Super Hero and Gohan and the Gamma Android are in fact comparable to each other. So we can group SSB Goku, Ultimate Gohan, and Gamma together. Kefla has better feats than Gohan against SSB and stronger Goku with just her LSS1 form. She nearly ko'ed SSBKK Goku in a single kick while LSS1. That same Goku 1-shot Gohan. On top of all that, that was just LSS1 Kefla. She became a lot stronger after using LSS2. Kefla wins for sure.
Click to expand...
fair point. changing my vote to kefla then
 
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