Gohan vs Jiren

[Spinoirr]

Beast Gohan vs Jiren The Gray

1. Fight takes place in a forcefield dome that is made by whis

Beast Gohan: 3 (@FluffyCreatureZ, @Dr._whiteee and @Kin201)
Jiren The Gray: 5 (@CiscoTheSoto, @Mickey1940, @Vizer04 and @Greatsage13th, @jojo123)
Icon: 1 (@Chianli)

 

[Chianli]

hmm...

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I knew this day would come, I just wasn't sure whether I wanted to be the one who'd make this thread...

I assume that Super Full Power Jiren is being used here, the one who fought Mastered UI Goku. Gohan likely has the AP advantage based on statements, though I don't believe he should be significantly stronger than Jiren. Like the Gohan vs Gogeta fight, this is the only real advantage that Gohan has here in my opinion.

In terms of feats and skill, I believe that Jiren has Gohan outmatched. Throughout the tournament, Jiren showed remarkable fighting skill and analytical prediction. Even at the start of the tournament, he was capable of observing the movements of the Kachi Katchin, and whereas everyone, even Goku, chose to dodge, he predicted the movements and didn't even have to move to know they wouldn't hit him. He's capable of fighting multiple opponents at once with ease, since he dealt with a tag team of Goku, Vegeta, and Android 17.

His more remarkable feats, however, were when he fought UI Sign Goku and MUI Goku. Even in their first bout, he was the only one with the skill to actually dodge and counter UI Sign Goku's attacks, whereas Kefla was almost completely incapable of landing attacks or blocking Goku's punches despite being comparable in strength to him and despite Kefla being a fusion of two of Universe 6's most talented Saiyans.

It's been pretty much established that the fighting abilities that UI Sign and MUI grant the user are on another level than their regular fighting style. The autonomous ability to react to attacks and the sharpness of the attacks make it much more difficult for opponents to actually hurt their opponent or dodge their attacks. The fact that Jiren was capable of matching against this godly fighting style is a testament to his skill. Even when Goku mastered his Ultra Instinct, Jiren quickly broke his limits and powered up, allowing him to fight against MUI Goku on even grounds and nearly overwhelming him on several occasions.

The main reason that MUI Goku was able to win against Jiren was because he had his friends there to give him motivation and because Jiren threatening them caused him to become enraged and further increased his power, which allowed him to deliver the final blows. Gohan usually powers up this way as well, but since it's a one-on-one battle, that's not going to happen here. Another thing that's been added by the most recent movie is that Jiren's got such a good control over his energy, he's capable of channeling his energy to be used at precisely the right moment, which means he's more efficient with how he uses his energy and can release much more powerful attacks in a shorter time than it would take most other fighters.

I don't recall ever seeing Gohan display the same level of analytical prediction that his father displayed, where he was skilled enough to completely read his opponent's movements with a glance. I mean, I recall him being capable of matching Cell's attacks blow-for-blow after witnessing Goku's match with Cell, but Jiren was also capable of reading UI Sign Goku's movements after watching his fight with Kefla. If there're any other examples, feel free to remind me.

How I think it would go is that after the fight goes on, Jiren would eventually start predicting Gohan's movements and gradually begin overpowering him before they'd clash with an Omegaheat Magnetron and a Special Beam Cannon or Masenko, with Jiren narrowly overpowering him. So my vote's for Jiren.

 

[Chianli]

I knew this day would come, I just wasn't sure whether I wanted to be the one who'd make this thread...

I assume that Super Full Power Jiren is being used here, the one who fought Mastered UI Goku. Gohan likely has the AP advantage here based on statements, though I don't believe he should be significantly stronger than Jiren. Like the Gohan vs Gogeta fight, this is the only real advantage that Gohan has here in my opinion.

In terms of feats and skill, I believe that Jiren has Gohan outmatched. Throughout the tournament, Jiren showed remarkable fighting skill and analytical prediction. Even at the start of the tournament, he was capable of observing the movements of the Kachi Katchin, and whereas everyone, even Goku, chose to dodge, he predicted the movements and didn't even have to move to know they wouldn't target him. He's capable of fighting multiple opponents at once with ease, since he dealt with a tag team of Goku, Vegeta, and Android 17 all at once.

His more remarkable feats, however, were when he fought UI Sign Goku and MUI Goku. Even in their first bout, he was the only one with the skill to actually dodge and counter UI Sign Goku's attacks, whereas Kefla was almost completely incapable of landing attacks or blocking Goku's punches despite being comparable in strength to him and despite Kefla being a fusion of two of Universe 6's most talented Saiyans.

It's been pretty much established that the fighting abilities that UI Sign and MUI grant the user are on another level than their regular skills. The autonomous ability to react to attacks and the sharpness of the attacks make it much more difficult for opponents to actually hurt their opponent or dodge their attacks. The fact that Jiren was capable of fighting against this godly fighting style is a testament to his skill. Even when Goku mastered his Ultra Instinct, Jiren quickly broke his limits and powered up, allowing him to fight against MUI Goku on even grounds and nearly overwhelming him on several occasions.

The main reason that MUI Goku was able to win against Jiren was because he had his friends there to give him motivation and because Jiren threatening them caused him to become enraged and further increased his power, which allowed him to deliver the final blows. Gohan usually powers up this way as well, but since it's a one-on-one battle, that's not going to happen here. Another thing that's been added by the most recent movie is that Jiren's got such a good control over his energy, he's capable of channeling his energy to be used at precisely the right moment, which means he's more efficient with how he uses his energy and can release much more powerful attacks in a shorter time than it would take most other fighters.

I don't recall ever seeing Gohan display the same level of analytical prediction that his father displayed, where he was skilled enough to completely read his opponent's movements with a glance. I mean, I recall him being capable of matching Cell's attacks blow-for-blow after witnessing Goku's match with Cell, but Jiren was also capable of reading UI Sign Goku's movements after watching his fight with Kefla. If there're any other examples, feel free to remind me.

How I think it would go is that after the fight goes on, Jiren would eventually start predicting Gohan's movements and gradually begin overpowering him before they'd clash with an Omegaheat Magnetron and a Special Beam Cannon or Masenko, with Jiren narrowly overpowering him. So my vote's for Jiren.

this. jiren would funnily think of this imo after fighting him "hm, your apperance closely resembles that of your father when MUI, but. gut punch and blast he says "it's all bluff"

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

On another note, the 2nd image of Jiren punching Gohan is absolutely badass. It's an awesome tribute to Saitama's serious punch against Awakened Garou.

 

[Jiren's_Dad]

Gohan stomps Jiren pretty hard

 

[SuperStar]

Ironic

 

[Spinoirr]

Bump

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[Chianli]

Gohan stomps Jiren pretty hard

elaborate

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The gap between beast gohan and cell is so much bigger than the gap between UI Goku and Jiren that it makes skill irrelevant.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

The gap between beast gohan and cell is so much bigger than the gap between UI Goku and Jiren that it makes skill irrelevant.

Uh, you realize that Cell Max was activated prematurely, was weakened severely by Gamma 2's sacrifice attack, and had his weak point targeted multiple times to the point there were visible cracks on his head, right? While yes, it was impressive that Gohan Beast could easily withstand a blow from Cell Max and overpower him with his Special Beam Cannon, Cell Max had several handicaps and wasn't nearly at his full power. Piccolo himself admitted that were it not for Gamma 2's sacrifice, they likely couldn't have won. So the gap in strength isn't as large as people may think, and it isn't large enough for Beast Gohan to one-shot Super Full Power Jiren.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Cell (semi) Max was breaching Broly levels of power. Broly was busting up SSB Goku and Vegeta (stronger than SSB ToP versions) in Ikari Mode and keeping pace with SSJ Gogeta while also tanking hits from SSB Gogeta. Based on the portrayal and scaling there isn't really much evidence that ToP Jiren can beat Gohan. Especially if we consider the various hype statements and wonky timeline ramifications of when the movie takes place.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Cell (semi) Max was breaching Broly levels of power. Broly was busting up SSB Goku and Vegeta (stronger than SSB ToP versions) in Ikari Mode and keeping pace with SSJ Gogeta while also tanking hits from SSB Gogeta. Based on the portrayal and scaling there isn't really much evidence that ToP Jiren can beat Gohan. Especially if we consider the various hype statements and wonky timeline ramifications of when the movie takes place.

I'm not arguing that Cell Max wasn't powerful, but we never got to see his full potential, either. Broly could somewhat hold his own in his Wrathful state against SSB Goku, but he was still overpowered. The SSB Goku and Vegeta likely weren't much stronger than their ToP selves, since not too much time had passed, and there were no official statements that either of them had gotten stronger since then, unlike the statement which said Golden Frieza had gotten much more powerful since the ToP. Based on everything we saw, I think that the Cell Max that Gohan defeated was only about as strong or stronger than SSJ Broly. After being weakened by the attacks to his head and Gamma 2's sacrifice, he was capable of eventually overpowering Orange Piccolo, who could easily defeat Gamma 2 with a punch and who was stated to supposedly be on par with SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. SSJ Broly was shown to be capable of easily overpowering a tag team from SSB Goku and Vegeta as well and force them to retreat, so that supports the idea that Cell Max's power had weakened to the point he was only SSJ Broly level after his injuries. It's possible that he was near LSSJ Broly level when he was first awakened, but the multiple attacks wore Cell Max down significantly.

None of SSJ Broly's feats indicate that he was stronger than UI Goku, only LSSJ Broly's feats give credence to that idea, and Super Full Power Jiren was capable of matching and even eclipsing UI Goku during the Tournament of Power. So based on all that, I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Super Full Power Jiren could fight on-par with and eventually defeat Beast Gohan.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Uh, you realize that Cell Max was activated prematurely, was weakened severely by Gamma 2's sacrifice attack, and had his weak point targeted multiple times to the point there were visible cracks on his head, right? While yes, it was impressive that Gohan Beast could easily withstand a blow from Cell Max and overpower him with his Special Beam Cannon, Cell Max had several handicaps and wasn't nearly at his full power. Piccolo himself admitted that were it not for Gamma 2's sacrifice, they likely couldn't have won. So the gap in strength isn't as large as people may think, and it isn't large enough for Beast Gohan to one-shot Super Full Power Jiren.

No we went over this before one gohan vs beerus. These points regarding cell max are irelevant. Cell max's is still physically as powerful as a broly who surpasses his broly movie version. Cell max is still also the most powerful villain while weakened. And orange piccolo is comparable to Goku and Vegeta at their peak as stated by toriyama. Whichever scaling you wanna use, Gohan is above everyone of the low 2-C's by an insane amount.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

No we went over this before one gohan vs beerus. These points regarding cell max are irelevant. Cell max's is still physically as powerful as a broly who surpasses his broly movie version. Cell max is still also the most powerful villain while weakened. And orange piccolo is comparable to Goku and Vegeta at their peak as stated by toriyama. Whichever scaling you wanna use, Gohan is above everyone of the low 2-C's by an insane amount.

It's completely relevant that he was weakened. You're making it sound as though his weak point didn't actually do anything to Cell Max, and that the damage Gamma 2's sacrifice attack did was inconsequential. Why the hell do you think Dr. Hedo added that in the first place? Because if you hit the weak point, it makes the opponent weaker. That's the whole point of having a weak spot. It was that attack which weakened Cell Max enough for Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast to fight and overwhelm him, which decreased his physical strength since ki is basically linked to physical strength in the DB universe.

Cell Max was never stated to be the most powerful villain while weakened: Piccolo and Gohan only stated that it would've been a tough battle for Goku and Vegeta if they were there. The Orange Piccolo statement about being comparable to Goku and co. is rather vague, since it doesn't say whether it makes him comparable to UI Goku and UE Vegeta, to SSB Kaio-ken/ UI Sign Goku and SSBE Vegeta, or even just SSB Goku and Vegeta. We don't really know whether Piccolo was referring to the Gammas as comparable to base, SSJ, SSJ2, or SSG Goku and Vegeta, we just assume it was reference to SSB. You're making assumptions based on vague author statements and ignoring the concrete feats shown in the anime. Gohan Beast is NOT above all the other Low 2-C's to the point that it's one-shot territory.

If the anime continues and it follows the plotline of the manga, with the movies retroactively incorporated into the anime as canon, then I may concede and admit that Gohan Beast would be far above Super Full Power Jiren. But since that hasn't happened yet, I still believe that the gap in AP between the two is negligible, and Jiren could still defeat Gohan with his greater skill.

 

[Chianli]

"actually yeah gohan has to have this."

 

[Eseseso]

Limit Breaker Jiren >>> FP Jiren > Beerus (IMO his restrained self was clearly stated by Whis to be above a GoD but the wiki won't accept the truth).

Gohan Beast >>> Cell Max > FPSSJ Broly (we don't know for sure that Broly trained that much since the movie outside of that one time on Beerus's planet since unlike Goku and Vegeta he isn't much of a casual trainer) >= Beerus.

If Jiren doesn't go FP then Gohan should have this, but with Limit Breaker AP is even and Jiren has the skill advantage.

Since Jiren would likely go FP if he's losing, I'm going to barely give this to Jiren.

If the wiki accepted the scaling that restrained Jiren > Beerus, then it would be Jiren by a way bigger margin.

 

[Spinoirr]

Votes?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It's completely relevant that he was weakened. You're making it sound as though his weak point didn't actually do anything to Cell Max, and that the damage Gamma 2's sacrifice attack did was inconsequential. Why the hell do you think Dr. Hedo added that in the first place? Because if you hit the weak point, it makes the opponent weaker. That's the whole point of having a weak spot. It was that attack which weakened Cell Max enough for Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast to fight and overwhelm him, which decreased his physical strength since ki is basically linked to physical strength in the DB universe.

No this is all head canon. Hitting the weak spot doesn't make cell weaker, that's never stated or even implied. It's only a lower durability than the rest of his body and if it's destroyed he dies completely. Gamma 2 didn't even hit the weak spot, he just tore off his arm which just makes cell max more impressive because he still beat up piccolo.

Cell Max was never stated to be the most powerful villain while weakened: Piccolo and Gohan only stated that it would've been a tough battle for Goku and Vegeta if they were there. The Orange Piccolo statement about being comparable to Goku and co. is rather vague, since it doesn't say whether it makes him comparable to UI Goku and UE Vegeta, to SSB Kaio-ken/ UI Sign Goku and SSBE Vegeta, or even just SSB Goku and Vegeta. We don't really know whether Piccolo was referring to the Gammas as comparable to base, SSJ, SSJ2, or SSG Goku and Vegeta, we just assume it was reference to SSB. You're making assumptions based on vague author statements and ignoring the concrete feats shown in the anime. Gohan Beast is NOT above all the other Low 2-C's to the point that it's one-shot territory

Cell max and gohan's fight is stated to be the strongest fight in history of dragon ball putting it above Goku vs Jiren.
Actually we do know that it was referring to them at their best. It says together they would have trouble with cell max, we know they can casually output at SSB or SSBK20/SSBE and we know that it can't be those forms because the gammas are scaling off those already and yes the gamma's do scale to SSB for a fact, let me go on a tangent here, the gamma's can't be below SSB level because piccolo and ultimate gohan are stronger than SSG Goku at the TOP. Anyway back to the point, so for Goku and vegeta to struggle with cell max and still beat him, they have to reach their instinct forms. To further support this, cell max is physically comparable to broly and Goku and vegeta can only beat that level of power with fusion or their instinct forms. And on top the fact that Goku have already been compared to the gamma's and that would mean toriyama means orange piccolo is relative to Goku and vegeta at their best.

Limit Breaker Jiren >>> FP Jiren > Beerus (IMO his restrained self was clearly stated by Whis to be above a GoD but the wiki won't accept the truth).

Gohan Beast >>> Cell Max > FPSSJ Broly (we don't know for sure that Broly trained that much since the movie outside of that one time on Beerus's planet since unlike Goku and Vegeta he isn't much of a casual trainer) >= Beerus.

If Jiren doesn't go FP then Gohan should have this, but with Limit Breaker AP is even and Jiren has the skill advantage.

Since Jiren would likely go FP if he's losing, I'm going to barely give this to Jiren.

If the wiki accepted the scaling that restrained Jiren > Beerus, then it would be Jiren by a way bigger margin.

Orange piccolo scales to UI Goku and broly and those guys and cell max is above that. Gohan also automatically scales above everyone including UI Goku who beat up jiren with brute force. The gap between gohan and jiren is big.

 

[Eseseso]

Orange piccolo scales to UI Goku and broly and those guys and cell max is above that. Gohan also automatically scales above everyone including UI Goku who beat up jiren with brute force. The gap between gohan and jiren is big.

How?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

How?

Toriyama stated that orange piccolo is now on par with Goku and the others and isn't left behind, which scales him to UI Goku which is further supported by the fact that he can throw hands with cell.
Gohan is also stated to have potential that makes stronger than anyone and beast form is that but unleashed. His fight with cell max is also stated to be the strongest fight in dragon ball history meaning he scales above everyone else as well.

 

[Eseseso]

Toriyama stated that orange piccolo is now on par with Goku and the others and isn't left behind, which scales him to UI Goku which is further supported by the fact that he can throw hands with cell.

How do we know he scales to UI Goku?

And does he scale to Super Hero Goku or to an earlier key of Goku?

Gohan is also stated to have potential that makes stronger than anyone and beast form is that but unleashed. His fight with cell max is also stated to be the strongest fight in dragon ball history meaning he scales above everyone else as well.

Did a reliable source state this?

Because every time a new character like this comes out (like FPSSJ Broly) they say the same thing.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

How do we know he scales to UI Goku?

And does he scale to Super Hero Goku or to an earlier key of Goku?

Did a reliable source state this?

Because every time a new character like this comes out (like FPSSJ Broly) they say the same thing.

Because the gamma's were already compared to Goku and vegeta and we deduced they scale to their SSB forms because that is their casual forms. However they are stated to struggle to beat cell max who is comparable to broly which they can only do if they are in instinct forms or fusion. Like I said, the fact that orange piccolo is scaling to cell max is proof of this as well.
He scales to SH Goku but he's unknown, so at least as strong his TOP self.
Yes it was toriyama.
Yes it's called power cliffing.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

No this is all head canon. Hitting the weak spot doesn't make cell weaker, that's never stated or even implied. It's only a lower durability than the rest of his body and if it's destroyed he dies completely. Gamma 2 didn't even hit the weak spot, he just tore off his arm which just makes cell max more impressive because he still beat up piccolo.

I disagree with that logic and the idea that it doesn't weaken Cell when it's targeted. And it's stupid to assume that Gamma 2's attack didn't significantly weaken Cell Max. Significant injuries have been shown to weaken fighters and drain their energy. SSJ2 Gohan's energy got more than halved when his arm was damaged. Cell Max's entire arm was torn off, and while this rule may vary with different organisms like androids, it still shouldn't be ignored, and I think it should serve as enough evidence that Gamma 2's attack significantly weakened Cell Max.

Orange piccolo scales to UI Goku and broly and those guys and cell max is above that. Gohan also automatically scales above everyone including UI Goku who beat up jiren with brute force. The gap between gohan and jiren is big.

Yea, don't believe there's any evidence that Orange Piccolo scales to the top tiers like UI Goku and LSSJ Broly. I'd say he's more on the level of UI Sign Goku, SSGE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, or SSJ2 Kefla, if not slightly higher than them. Again, you keep ignoring the injuries Cell Max sustained, the fact he was missing an arm, and the fact that Orange Piccolo quickly got dominated in spite of these heavy injuries.

 

[Chianli]

also jiren could likely damage him alot with his precise ki control.

 

[Eseseso]

Because the gamma's were already compared to Goku and vegeta and we deduced they scale to their SSB forms because that is their casual forms. However they are stated to struggle to beat cell max who is comparable to broly which they can only do if they are in instinct forms or fusion. Like I said, the fact that orange piccolo is scaling to cell max is proof of this as well.

How does this relate to UI Goku?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I'm not arguing that Cell Max wasn't powerful, but we never got to see his full potential, either.

It was stated Perfect Cell would have gained sentience and combat tactics. Nothing really about an insane power boost.

Broly could somewhat hold his own in his Wrathful state against SSB Goku, but he was still overpowered.

He was fighting two people and Ikari wasn't really overpowered in the sense that SSB was blatantly stronger.

The SSB Goku and Vegeta likely weren't much stronger than their ToP selves, since not too much time had passed, and there were no official statements that either of them had gotten stronger since then,

They specifically trained due to the events of the ToP.

None of SSJ Broly's feats indicate that he was stronger than UI Goku,

Yeah they do. Nothing even remotely suggests that UI Goku is comparable to a fusion of him and Vegeta. Let alone that fusion + SSJ multipliers, and certaintly not that fusion + SSB multipliers.

Goku didn't even muse about powering up into other forms or state "it's a shame I can't use UI!". He and Vegeta blatantly conceded they needed fusion to beat Broly and even that fusion needed SSJ+. This is comparable to Goku and Vegeta needing to fuse to defeat super Buu despite Goku having access to SSJ3.

Not onyl did gogeta literally skip 3 forms of SSJ that have ridiculous gaps in between them (the jump from SSJ to even SSR is huge, let alone Blue) but he wasn't even able to oneshot him afterwards and Broly was able to tank several physical and Ki based attacks, including named ones.

That is far more impressive that Jiren beating ToP level SSB+ fighters and being able to go toe to toe with an extremely unskilled UI Goku.

only LSSJ Broly's feats give credence to that idea, and Super Full Power Jiren was capable of matching and even eclipsing UI Goku during the Tournament of Power. So based on all that, I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Super Full Power Jiren could fight on-par with and eventually defeat Beast Gohan.

Not really, they took one look at Broly and immediately ceded they needed fusion to win. Not one of them mentioned Blue Evolution or UI as a possibility.

And once again, at best (for Jiren) the movie with Gohan takes place nebulously after the Broly movie, after Broly, Goku, and Vegeta were stated to have sought training in various areas, meaning another level of training even after the one that happened after the TOP.

At worst, statements put this movie passed the Moro and Granolah Arcs. If that is the case, then I don't need to explain why this is an unholy stomp.

Anyhow you slice it, Gohan is dubbing here.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I disagree with that logic and the idea that it doesn't weaken Cell when it's targeted. And it's stupid to assume that Gamma 2's attack didn't significantly weaken Cell Max. Significant injuries have been shown to weaken fighters and drain their energy. SSJ2 Gohan's energy got more than halved when his arm was damaged. Cell Max's entire arm was torn off, and while this rule may vary with different organisms like androids, it still shouldn't be ignored, and I think it should serve as enough evidence that Gamma 2's attack significantly weakened Cell Max.

Well you can disagree but you're wrong because it's baseless. Yeah but cell max doesn't function the same way, he's not even like the original cell who was organic so this is a false equivalence. The most we can say is that cell max was panting after being hit, after that he was just fine.

Yea, don't believe there's any evidence that Orange Piccolo scales to the top tiers like UI Goku and LSSJ Broly. I'd say he's more on the level of UI Sign Goku, SSGE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, or SSJ2 Kefla, if not slightly higher than them. Again, you keep ignoring the injuries Cell Max sustained, the fact he was missing an arm, and the fact that Orange Piccolo quickly got dominated in spite of these heavy injuries

At least provide a counter argument.
That is a completely arbitrary guess, I have no idea on what basis you list him on that level. It's still incredibly wrong and contradicts the scaling but you didn't provide anything to support that clain in the first place.
Bruh again with the injuries. Are you forgetting that piccolo is literally throwing hands with a dude who rivals broly in strength?

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

It was stated Perfect Cell would have gained sentience and combat tactics. Nothing really about an insane power boost.

That's debatable, since having sentience indicates having better control over power. Kale gaining her sanity during the ToP was stated to have increased her power as well compared to when she first transformed.

They specifically trained due to the events of the ToP.

Never really stated besides Goku and Vegeta sparring at the beginning of the movie, and we don't really see how much stronger they've gotten since no timeline for the movie was given besides it being after the ToP, but from what's seen, it wasn't really much.

Yeah they do. Nothing even remotely suggests that UI Goku is comparable to a fusion of him and Vegeta. Let alone that fusion + SSJ multipliers, and certaintly not that fusion + SSB multipliers.

Goku didn't even muse about powering up into other forms or state "it's a shame I can't use UI!". He and Vegeta blatantly conceded they needed fusion to beat Broly and even that fusion needed SSJ+. This is comparable to Goku and Vegeta needing to fuse to defeat super Buu despite Goku having access to SSJ3.

You're misconstruing things. During this time, Goku wasn't capable of accessing Ultra Instinct on his own. He knew it would've been way riskier to try fighting Broly on the chance that he'd reawaken Ultra Instinct instead of doing the easier option with a better chance of success, which was fusing into Gogeta. That doesn't specifically mean UI Goku was weaker than SSB Gogeta. And your comparison with Buu is weird, too. Goku and Vegeta knew they had to fuse because SSJ3 Goku wasn't strong enough to beat Buu, and because he tried and failed in the anime. The Broly equivalent of that would've been if Goku had indeed went Ultra Instinct and failed to defeat Broly, which did not happen.

Not onyl did gogeta literally skip 3 forms of SSJ that have ridiculous gaps in between them (the jump from SSJ to even SSR is huge, let alone Blue) but he wasn't even able to oneshot him afterwards and Broly was able to tank several physical and Ki based attacks, including named ones.

The multipliers for the other SSJ or SSG forms are really debatable due to several inconsistencies. The only clear multiplier that this wiki accepts is the x50 Super Saiyan multiplier due to the consistency of that multiplier shown in the Frieza saga. Additionally, there's no indication that the regular x50 for the Super Saiyan is set. Toriyama has said multiple times that it's better to master the Super Saiyan power instead of utilizing the other Super Saiyan 2 or 3 forms. Goku and Vegeta increased their mastery and the power extracted from their SSJ massively. This was shown when SSJ Vegeta fought SSJ Cabba in the Tournament of Destroyers. Both Saiyans in their base forms were shown to be equal in power, but when they went SSJ, Cabba was unable to actually hurt SSJ Vegeta, who took his punch unfazed. This implies that the power SSJ Vegeta has is far greater than the regular x50 multiplier. So we don't know how large the gap between SSJ and SSG is, especially considering all the ki control that Goku and Vegeta learned while training with Whis.

That is far more impressive that Jiren beating ToP level SSB+ fighters and being able to go toe to toe with an extremely unskilled UI Goku.

I like the way you put "unskilled" and "Ultra Instinct" in the same sentence, completely ignoring the god-like fighting abilities that Ultra Instinct gives Goku. Yes, Goku didn't have full control over it and could only access it at random times, but the raw power and the autonomous instinct that the transformation gave cannot be understated. For god's sake, all the Gods of Destruction stood up when they saw Goku go Ultra Instinct. So don't try to say that UI Goku's performance against Jiren was any less remarkable than SSB Gogeta's performance against Broly.

Not really, they took one look at Broly and immediately ceded they needed fusion to win. Not one of them mentioned Blue Evolution or UI as a possibility.

As I said before, Goku didn't mention UI because he didn't want to make that gamble. SSBE wasn't mentioned either because the increase in power wasn't substantial enough to overwhelm Broly. Trying to say that SSBE is as strong as UI is ridiculous.

And once again, at best (for Jiren) the movie with Gohan takes place nebulously after the Broly movie, after Broly, Goku, and Vegeta were stated to have sought training in various areas, meaning another level of training even after the one that happened after the TOP.

They might've gotten stronger, but we don't know how much stronger, since the timeline is unclear and we don't know if the movies are following the manga or creating their own continuity with the anime.

At worst, statements put this movie passed the Moro and Granolah Arcs. If that is the case, then I don't need to explain why this is an unholy stomp.

Again, that's a possibility, but we don't know for certain because the manga and anime have different continuities and different ways the Tournament of Power played out. Until the DBS anime is continued, we can't say for certain whether the Moro or Granolah arcs even happen in the anime. And if they do, we don't know how differently they might do things compared to the manga. So for now, the power of Beast Gohan and Super Full Power Jiren should be comparable.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

How does this relate to UI Goku?

Toriyama's statement can only refer to Goku and co at their strongest. The proof is that the comparison was already made for weaker casual forms, as well as orange piccolo scaling to cell max who's broly level which is instinct level to Goku.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Well you can disagree but you're wrong because it's baseless. Yeah but cell max doesn't function the same way, he's not even like the original cell who was organic so this is a false equivalence. The most we can say is that cell max was panting after being hit, after that he was just fine.

Again, he wasn't fine. Stop pretending that Gamma 2's attack did nothing and acting like he would've performed as well as he was before if Gamma 2 hadn't sacrificed himself.

At least provide a counter argument.
That is a completely arbitrary guess, I have no idea on what basis you list him on that level. It's still incredibly wrong and contradicts the scaling but you didn't provide anything to support that clain in the first place.
Bruh again with the injuries. Are you forgetting that piccolo is literally throwing hands with a dude who rivals broly in strength?

I've already stated my reasoning several times for why Cell Max was much weaker when he fought Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan. Again, Piccolo himself said that if Gamma 2 hadn't sacrificed himself, they couldn't have beaten him, which was in spite of having seen Beast Gohan's power himself.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

That's debatable, since having sentience indicates having better control over power. Kale gaining her sanity during the ToP was stated to have increased her power as well compared to when she first transformed.

That would be a skill issue. It's not adding Ki to their overall pool. At best you could use a Ki control argument, which is fine, but not really relevant since Semi Max Cell was comparable to broly from the movie which is > Jiren.

Never really stated besides Goku and Vegeta sparring at the beginning of the movie, and we don't really see how much stronger they've gotten since no timeline for the movie was given besides it being after the ToP, but from what's seen, it wasn't really much.

They explicitly trained due to them getting smacked around in the ToP and meeting mortals far beyond their power. Pretty sure that is stated at the beginning.

And using precedence, we know how even a little training can jump someone's tiers. So, while unquantifiable, they were still stronger.

You're misconstruing things. During this time, Goku wasn't capable of accessing Ultra Instinct on his own. He knew it would've been way riskier to try fighting Broly on the chance that he'd reawaken Ultra Instinct instead of doing the easier option with a better chance of success, which was fusing into Gogeta.

Citation needed.

That doesn't specifically mean UI Goku was weaker than SSB Gogeta.

It is supporting evidence for the idea that UI was not enough to handle Broly. Goku never mentions it and neither does Vegeta. Nor do they even attempt to utilize their higher blue forms, as they did with Jiren. Indicating they knew they needed fusion for the win. This is especially a thing given we know how much Vegeta absolutely hates fusing with Goku.

And your comparison with Buu is weird, too. Goku and Vegeta knew they had to fuse because SSJ3 Goku wasn't strong enough to beat Buu, and because he tried and failed in the anime.

I don't follow the anime, I follow the manga. So my comparison does hold true unless I am missing where SSJ Goku fought Super Buu in the manga. If so, I will concede that point.

Goku didn't need to because he never even considered it an option, and neither did Vegeta. They both immediately knew they had to fuse, which once again, is literally a last resort for Vegeta.

The multipliers for the other SSJ or SSG forms are really debatable due to several inconsistencies. The only clear multiplier that this wiki accepts is the x50 Super Saiyan multiplier due to the consistency of that multiplier shown in the Frieza saga. Additionally, there's no indication that the regular x50 for the Super Saiyan is set. Toriyama has said multiple times that it's better to master the Super Saiyan power instead of utilizing the other Super Saiyan 2 or 3 forms. Goku and Vegeta increased their mastery and the power extracted from their SSJ massively. This was shown when SSJ Vegeta fought SSJ Cabba in the Tournament of Destroyers. Both Saiyans in their base forms were shown to be equal in power, but when they went SSJ, Cabba was unable to actually hurt SSJ Vegeta, who took his punch unfazed. This implies that the power SSJ Vegeta has is far greater than the regular x50 multiplier. So we don't know how large the gap between SSJ and SSG is, especially considering all the ki control that Goku and Vegeta learned while training with Whis.

Even if you are arguing that the powerups are inconsistent from an expicit value standpoint, it still doesn't erase the inherent fact that people get exponentially stronger via power ups. Look at Kaio Ken, that alone allows you to multiply your stats via whole number proportions. Are you saying the jump from SSJ 1 to 2, SSJ2 to 3, and SSJ 3 to Red is not even remotely comparable?

Explicits don't really matter when the facts are:

• Base gogeta should easily be > SSB version of Goku and Vegeta.
• SSJ reliably increases that power by 50x.

Now let's just lowball and say every transformation after SSJ1 is 1/10 of the SSJ power-up (which is blatantly false given the gap between SSJ3 Goku's performance and SSJ Red's performance in the same arc but I'll humour you.) that means the rest of our powerscale is:
- SSJ 2 Gogeta (hypothetical) - 250x stronger than base
SSJ3 - 1250x stronger than base gogeta
SSJ Red - 6, 250 times stronger than base gogeta.
SSJ Blue - 31, 500x stronger than Base Gogeta.

The same Base Gogeta who needed SSJ1 to actually do anything more than dodge Broly's attacks and do superficial damage.

There is literally 0 way you are convincing me that ToP Jiren is broaching these levels of power.

I like the way you put "unskilled" and "Ultra Instinct" in the same sentence, completely ignoring the god-like fighting abilities that Ultra Instinct gives Goku.

Because by "unskilled" I was clearly referring to Goku's mastery (aka level of skill in utilizing) of UI.

Yes, Goku didn't have full control over it and could only access it at random times, but the raw power and the autonomous instinct that the transformation gave cannot be understated.

Doesn't need to be understated to not be on Gogeta's level. You have no objective basis to compare it to Gogeta.

For god's sake, all the Gods of Destruction stood up when they saw Goku go Ultra Instinct. So don't try to say that UI Goku's performance against Jiren was any less remarkable than SSB Gogeta's performance against Broly.

They stood up because Goku was a mortal who achieved mastery over a mode that only gods/angels had previously attained. That's completely separate to the power consistency we are discussing here and thus is a complete non-sequitur.

As I said before, Goku didn't mention UI because he didn't want to make that gamble.

Citation needed, and this also would have no impact on Vegeta bringing it up.

SSBE wasn't mentioned either because the increase in power wasn't substantial enough to overwhelm Broly.

So, it's okay for you to say SSBE wasn't mentioned because it was too weak, but with UI we can make excuses? That's a special pleading fallacy buddy.

Trying to say that SSBE is as strong as UI is ridiculous.

Good thing I never even remotely implied this.

They might've gotten stronger, but we don't know how much stronger, since the timeline is unclear and we don't know if the movies are following the manga or creating their own continuity with the anime.

Again, that's a possibility, but we don't know for certain because the manga and anime have different continuities and different ways the Tournament of Power played out. Until the DBS anime is continued, we can't say for certain whether the Moro or Granolah arcs even happen in the anime. And if they do, we don't know how differently they might do things compared to the manga. So for now, the power of Beast Gohan and Super Full Power Jiren should be comparable.

No, we know based on the progression of power of characters who have reference points in the ToP, that post Moro and especially post Granolah characters would absolotely dogsmash Jiren and their prior selves from the ToP.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Again, he wasn't fine. Stop pretending that Gamma 2's attack did nothing and acting like he would've performed as well as he was before if Gamma 2 hadn't sacrificed himself

I didn't say that. He was crippled after losing his arm, but his power wasn't really affected, all he was doing is panting and then he stopped that's it. Nobody stated that he got weaker and you could actually argue he was getting stronger because the other z fighters were kind of affecting him with their attacks.

I've already stated my reasoning several times for why Cell Max was much weaker when he fought Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan. Again, Piccolo himself said that if Gamma 2 hadn't sacrificed himself, they couldn't have beaten him, which was in spite of having seen Beast Gohan's power himself.

It's not that simple. The fight has to go a very certain way for gohan to get the trigger to transform. Otherwise he wouldn't have transformed and they would've all lost.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Still believe y'all are ignoring evidence. When Gamma 1 and 2 explains Cell Max's weakness, he doesn't say, "We need to target his weak point in order to trigger the self-destruction. Self-destructing is the only way we can beat him, so once he starts to explode, we need to hit the decks." He says, "Dr. Hedo placed a weakness on the top of his head. but be careful: destroying it will cause him to explode." The Gammas do not say that triggering Cell Max's self-destruct is the only way to defeat him: they only say it's a side-effect of targeting his weak spot. This would mean that they knew that hitting Cell Max's weak spot would actually weaken him. Even if characters can still keep on fighting, that doesn't mean they aren't getting weaker. In the manga, this was seen with Kale when she achieved her LSSJ form and couldn't control its power. Same with Golden Frieza when his stamina was quickly draining to the point he couldn't hurt SSB anymore: he could still fight, but he was being less effective. Same applies here: Cell Max could still fight, but he was growing weaker.

I have also always disagreed with the idea that base Gogeta is stronger than both SSB Goku and Vegeta. Don't see any reason for this to be true cuz there's nothing to prove it. Most we saw Gogeta do in base was dodge some of Broly's energy blasts and deflect a few weaker energy blasts, all of which SSB Goku and Vegeta were easily capable of doing. SSJ Gogeta proved that he was stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta because he could fight on-par with and eventually overwhelm SSJ Broly. And again, with how much Goku and Vegeta have mastered the regular SSJ form, they should be able to draw out drastically more power from the form than usual.

Again, I disagree with the multiplier of SSB. They've always been way to inconsistent with how much stronger SSB and all the Super Saiyan transformations are and have always had characters transform into SSB for weaker characters. More proof of Broly and Jiren being comparable, or even Jiren still being stronger, is based on the in-universe statements. During the Tournament of Power, Whis stated that even in his regular power prior to breaking his limits, he was stronger than the Gods of Destruction, a statement which was supported multiple times by Toppo, a God of Destruction candidate, and Belmod. In comparison, Goku only says that Broly is "probably" stronger than Beerus, even after having fought Broly at his full power himself while fused as Gogeta. Who're you more likely to believe here: Whis, the angel who's trained Beerus himself and lived for hundreds of millions of years, or Goku, the one who's never even seen Beerus fight at full power, and no, his battle against Beerus in the beginning of the series doesn't count cuz Beerus was holding back significantly, and the anime has established many times that neither Goku or Vegeta were even close to Beerus, which includes when Goku first fought Beerus. So no, Gohan Beast cannot one-shot Super Full Power Jiren, and their strength is still comparable.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

[Voting Gohan]

 

[Eseseso]

Honestly, since Jiren SHOULD be scaled with his restrained form being >= a GoD going by Whis's statement, IMO the chains should be:


Restrained Jiren >= GoD =< FPSSJ Broly

FP Jiren >> Restrained Jiren

Beast Gohan >> Cell Max


So FP Jiren would be on par with Beast Gohan but Limit Breaker would stomp Gohan

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Still believe y'all are ignoring evidence. When Gamma 1 and 2 explains Cell Max's weakness, he doesn't say, "We need to target his weak point in order to trigger the self-destruction. Self-destructing is the only way we can beat him, so once he starts to explode, we need to hit the decks." He says, "Dr. Hedo placed a weakness on the top of his head. but be careful: destroying it will cause him to explode." The Gammas do not say that triggering Cell Max's self-destruct is the only way to defeat him: they only say it's a side-effect of targeting his weak spot. This would mean that they knew that hitting Cell Max's weak spot would actually weaken him. Even if characters can still keep on fighting, that doesn't mean they aren't getting weaker. In the manga, this was seen with Kale when she achieved her LSSJ form and couldn't control its power. Same with Golden Frieza when his stamina was quickly draining to the point he couldn't hurt SSB anymore: he could still fight, but he was being less effective. Same applies here: Cell Max could still fight, but he was growing weaker.

No this is misconstruing what gamma was saying completely. Him telling them to be careful is because after destroying the weak spot, cell max explodes, he's telling them that because they'll be caught in the explosion and die. Your idea is completely unfounded and cell max is never displayed getting weaker.

I have also always disagreed with the idea that base Gogeta is stronger than both SSB Goku and Vegeta. Don't see any reason for this to be true cuz there's nothing to prove it. Most we saw Gogeta do in base was dodge some of Broly's energy blasts and deflect a few weaker energy blasts, all of which SSB Goku and Vegeta were easily capable of doing. SSJ Gogeta proved that he was stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta because he could fight on-par with and eventually overwhelm SSJ Broly. And again, with how much Goku and Vegeta have mastered the regular SSJ form, they should be able to draw out drastically more power from the form than usual.

Gogeta parried and dodged them casually with no effort. Goku and vegeta together couldn't parry a single one and broly vaporized their combined attack with two ki blasts. Goku and vegeta also got their clothes destroyed and battle damaged after a minor exchange with broly. There is no comparison.

Again, I disagree with the multiplier of SSB. They've always been way to inconsistent with how much stronger SSB and all the Super Saiyan transformations are and have always had characters transform into SSB for weaker characters. More proof of Broly and Jiren being comparable, or even Jiren still being stronger, is based on the in-universe statements. During the Tournament of Power, Whis stated that even in his regular power prior to breaking his limits, he was stronger than the Gods of Destruction, a statement which was supported multiple times by Toppo, a God of Destruction candidate, and Belmod. In comparison, Goku only says that Broly is "probably" stronger than Beerus, even after having fought Broly at his full power himself while fused as Gogeta. Who're you more likely to believe here: Whis, the angel who's trained Beerus himself and lived for hundreds of millions of years, or Goku, the one who's never even seen Beerus fight at full power, and no, his battle against Beerus in the beginning of the series doesn't count cuz Beerus was holding back significantly, and the anime has established many times that neither Goku or Vegeta were even close to Beerus, which includes when Goku first fought Beerus. So no, Gohan Beast cannot one-shot Super Full Power Jiren, and their strength is still comparable.

Lmao now you're playing around. SSB is literally SSJ on top of SSG. Also ever heard of holding back?
Goku fought a guy who was stronger than beerus, he's a completely reliable source for broly's power.

Honestly, since Jiren SHOULD be scaled with his restrained form being >= a GoD going by Whis's statement, IMO the chains should be:


Restrained Jiren >= GoD =< FPSSJ Broly

FP Jiren >> Restrained Jiren

Beast Gohan >> Cell Max


So FP Jiren would be on par with Beast Gohan but Limit Breaker would stomp Gohan

You're confused, Eseseso. Jiren's statements regarding him being stronger than the GoDs only apply to his full power. And beast gohan's scaling puts him above limit breaker jiren regardless.
Beerus <= belmod < jiren <<< Hidden power jiren < UI Goku ~ piccolo < cell max <<< Gohan.
Even ignoring this, piccolo and toriyama state that gohan's untapped potential makes him stronger than anyone, so beast gohan is more powerful than UI Goku who trashed Jiren.
I'm voting gohan.

 

[Chianli]

am changing to inco to the reasonings as they are both good reason as to vote who on but am kinda leading on gohan., still inco though