Genshin speed revision

[Dog3352]

I dont rly see why is this debunking a speed feat(if thats the arg here)

I don't even know if this is to debunk the speed feat, just explaining whether Kazuha attacked or just defended Raiden's attack.

 

[Woomica]

I don't even know if this is to debunk the speed feat, just explaining whether Kazuha attacked or just defended Raiden's attack.

Idk gianny said how you debunked a feat using irl examples myb i didnt understood something

 

[Giannysmag]

Because Garrixian argued that Kazuha wasn't aiming to block Raiden's strike and instead that Raiden reacted to him

 

[Dog3352]

Idk gianny said how you debunked a feat using irl examples myb i didnt understood something

Probably about Kazuha attacking Raiden or not, I'm not sure.
Anyway, this is probably the last CRT I'll participate in Genshin (maybe participate in battle), so I'm just giving my opinion.

 

[Dog3352]

Because Garrixian argued that Kazuha wasn't aiming to block Raiden's strike and instead that Raiden reacted to him

Well, it seems natural to say that Raiden didn't react to Kazuha's attack, as she was just swinging the sword from top to bottom, and it was Kazuha who simply charged straight at the sword.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Aight, I appreciate no irrelevant derailments here.

I'm going to address all the points on why Kazuha didn't blitz Raiden, again, and make myself clear. If there aren't any new arguments then I'm not responding.

1. A potential issue argued by member @Giannysmag is that Kazuha is significantly faster than Raiden, as he claimed that Kazuha blocked Raiden's attempted to attack Aether and Paimon, and Raiden failed to react to it.

However, this is not the case, as you can see there are two scenes:


^^Ei emerges from the Plane of Euthymia and attempts to attack the Traveler.

(Play on 0.25 speed)

^^The shards from the Plane of Euthymia are gone and Raiden appears to be far further from Traveler from the previous scene; it's quite clear Raiden swapped her position since her blade is too far from the Traveler to strike him, as she swapped her position to attack Kazuha. This deduces the reality that Raiden was fully aware of Kazuha and successfully reacted to him.

2. Another OP's argument to counteract Giannysmag's argument is this scene here:


^^Kazuha barely blocked a strike from Raiden. If he was significantly faster, why didn't he dodge the attack but rather block it despite knowing the significant power difference? Kazuha didn't have enough time to dodge the attack, nor did he have the capacity to do so. Some may think he was distracted from the vision, though, he was on guard for the final second before Raiden attacked. One second would be more than enough for Kazuha to dodge the attack, considering a (3751102.4 m/s ÷ 723101.23 m/s = 5.2) 5.2x speed difference.

3. It wouldn't make any sense for Raiden to be blitzed and rated as significantly slower than Kazuha with only 2 visions, because she kept up with Traveler who got buffed with all visions from The Statue of the Omnipresent God. It would be a contradiction to assume so.

4. Nonetheless with all that aside, it would be pure Plot-Induced Stupidity for Kazuha, a mere normal human with only 2 visions, to blitz Raiden who's a literal Electro God. Raiden keeping up with visions-buffed Traveler can also support the insistence of Kazuha blitzing being PIS.

 

[Giannysmag]

This is probably going to be my last response before i go to sleep

1. A potential issue argued by member @Giannysmag is that Kazuha is significantly faster than Raiden, as he claimed that Kazuha blocked Raiden's attempted attack against Aether and Paimon and Raiden failed to react to it.

However, this is not the case, you can see there are two scenes:


^^Ei emerges from the Plane of Euthymia and attempts to attack the Traveler.

(Play on 0.25 speed)

^^The shards from the Plane of Euthymia are gone and Raiden appears to be far further from Traveler from the previous scene; it's quite clear Raiden swapped her position since her blade is too far from the Traveler to strike him, as she swapped her position to attack Kazuha. This deduces the reality that Raiden was fully aware of Kazuha and successfully reacted to him.

The lack of the sigil and her wierd position in those few frames can simply be explained by the fact that she isn't the focus of the scene (she is practically in the backround when Kazuha is moving), so whoever made the cutscene simply didn't bother to position her in the exact spot with sigil behind her. Agruing that the change in position proves that she stopped attacking the traveler (her main opponent) mid strike, moved slightly to face Kazuha and prepared to attack Kazuha instead is rather silly imo

2. Another OP's argument to counteract Giannysmag's argument is this scene here:


^^Kazuha barely blocked a strike from Raiden. If he was significantly faster, why didn't he dodge the attack but rather block it despite knowing the significant power difference? Kazuha didn't have enough time to dodge the attack, nor did he have the capacity to do so. Some may think he was distracted from the vision, though, he was on guard for the final second before Raiden attacked. One second would be more than enough for Kazuha to dodge the attack, considering a (3751102.4 m/s ÷ 723101.23 m/s = 5.2) 5.2x speed difference.

Like i mentioned before Kazuha was looking at his visions when Raiden begun attacking so he wasn't fully paying attention to her. Also i would like to mention that Kazuha's feat was performed using the elemental speed amp (you know that thing that's listed on most profiles but rarely gets used in vs matches), so his base speed wouldn't fully scale to it anyway

3. It wouldn't make any sense for Raiden to be blitzed and rated as significantly slower than Kazuha with only 2 visions, because she kept up with Traveler who got buffed with all visions from The Statue of the Omnipresent God. It would be a contradiction to assume so.

We never actually see her fight the Traveler with 99 visions, so it's headcannon to assume that the Traveler used the same speed buff ability that Kazuha used and especially that Raiden reacted to it

4. Nonetheless with all that aside, it would be pure Plot-Induced Stupidity for Kazuha, a mere normal human with only 2 visions, to blitz Raiden who's a literal Electro God. Raiden keeping up with visions-buffed Traveler can also support the insistence of Kazuha blitzing being PIS.

It's not PSI to say Kazuha with elemental speed buff (from multiple visions btw) > Raiden's basic attack speed. If you wanna scale Raiden's own movement speed with elements to Kazuha based on her being a god go ahead but that would hardly scale to anyone else in the verse

 

[GarrixianXD]

This is probably going to be my last response before i go to sleep

Goodnight.

The lack of the sigil and her wierd position in those few frames can simply be explained by the fact that she isn't the focus of the scene (she is practically in the backround when Kazuha is moving), so whoever made the cutscene simply didn't bother to position her in the exact spot with sigil behind her. Agruing that the change in position proves that she stopped attacking the traveler (her main opponent) mid strike, moved slightly to face Kazuha and prepared to attack Kazuha instead is rather silly imo

Hasty generalisation and causation fallacy.

Like i mentioned before Kazuha was looking at his visions when Raiden begun attacking so he wasn't fully paying attention to her. Also i would like to mention that Kazuha's feat was performed using the elemental speed amp (you know that thing that's listed on most profiles but rarely gets used in vs matches), so his base speed wouldn't fully scale to it anyway

Irrelevant conclusion.

We never actually see her fight the Traveler with 99 visions, so it's headcannon to assume that the Traveler used the same speed buff ability that Kazuha used and especially that Raiden reacted to it

What... we fought her as a boss battle and it's literally on Traveler's profile. This is the most basic logic right here. If Kazuha can amplify his speed why can't Traveler?

It's not PSI to say Kazuha with elemental speed buff (from multiple visions btw) > Raiden's basic attack speed. If you wanna scale Raiden's own movement speed with elements to Kazuha based on her being a god go ahead but that would hardly scale to anyone else in the verse

You wanna prove how it's not? Because it is; Ayaka was downgraded from 6-C for a reason.

 

[Giannysmag]

Ok actual last response before i go to sleep

Goodnight.

Thanks

Hasty generalisation and causation fallacy.

Irrelevant conclusion.

Nice arguament, unfortanately i do not know what those words mean

What... we fought her as a boss battle and it's literally on Traveler's profile. This is the most basic logic right here. If Kazuha can amplify his speed why can't Traveler?

I know she is a boss fight but we never see the Traveler actually use that ability, nor Raiden reacting to it so this entire arguament is headcannon also the Traveler never uses their elements lmao

You wanna prove how it's not? Because it is; Ayaka was downgraded from 6-C for a reason.

Because it happens and we have no reason to assume it's inconsistent when it's using an ability that boosts speed

 

[GarrixianXD]

Ok actual last response before i go to sleep

Thanks

Insomnia is bad for you m8

I know she is a boss fight but we never see the Traveler actually use that ability, nor Raiden reacting to it so this entire arguament is headcannon also the Traveler never uses their elements lmao

If Traveler didn't use that ability then he would've been mopped like the first battle and we blatantly saw he got buffed by all visions of The Omnipresent Statue. And the fact that there's a boss battle means they properly fought, therefore Raiden of course reacted to and fought evenly with Traveler. What you're assuming is illogical.

Because it happens and we have no reason to assume it's inconsistent when it's using an ability that boosts speed

And... how is it specifically an ability that boosts speed? The visions boosted the potency of the Traveler.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Anyway, if anyone has an issue with this revision then feel free to call the approving staff (DDM and Propellus) for a re-evaluation since they already agreed. Otherwise, this will be applied after the 48-hour grace time is up.

 

[Giannysmag]

Insomnia is bad for you m8

"You mearly adopted the insomnia, I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't learn of a normal sleep schedule until i had already left high school and by then it was nothing to me but tiresome"

Hasty generalisation and causation fallacy.

How is what i said a hasty generalisation? If Raiden had reacted to Kazuha in that moment and moved away from the Traveler to attack him they would have shown us, but they don't. You are using a backround detail to back up your arguament, but the point of the scene is clearly that Raiden is about attack Traveler and Kazuha activates both visions to intercept her before she can finish attacking

Irrelevant conclusion.

It's not irrelavent because if the feat is done via a speed buff then that means Kazuha's base speed doesn't fully scale to it, so you can't use the fact that he "barely reacted" to Raiden as an antifeat

If Traveler didn't use that ability then he would've been mopped like the first battle

Says who? In the one cutscene we see them actually fighting (during their second fight) the Traveler is keeping up with just his base speed and skill

and we blatantly saw he got buffed by all visions of The Omnipresent Statue. And the fact that there's a boss battle means they properly fought, therefore Raiden of course reacted to and fought evenly with Traveler.

Yes she was reacting to his base speed, but we never see her react to the traveler when using their elements to boost their speed (which is what would have gotten buffed from all the visions because visions as far as we know don't boost your physical stats), or even see the Traveler use that ability at all

And... how is it specifically an ability that boosts speed?

Because he is using the elemental energy from the two visions to boost himself forward, it's an ability that's listed for basically every character in the verse

Also i would like to add that the calc itself seems weird to me. You use lightning speed for the feat because

This is another calculation I made recently which takes in the same element, lightning

but Raiden isn't using lightning to attack the Traveler, she is just swinging her sword. Now if you wanna say that Raiden's sword swing is lightning speed that's fine, but in doing so you are conceding that Kazuha moved all that distance before Raiden could finish swinging her sword, which would mean that Raiden wouldn't scale to the feat either way because for the calc to even work you would be assuming that Raiden is moving massively slower than Kazuha

 

[GarrixianXD]

How is what i said a hasty generalisation? If Raiden had reacted to Kazuha in that moment and moved away from the Traveler to attack him they would have shown us, but they don't. You are using a backround detail to back up your arguament, but the point of the scene is clearly that Raiden is about attack Traveler and Kazuha activates both visions to intercept her before she can finish attacking

Nothing says I can’t use a background detail. It’s literally a part of the cutscene anyways.

It's not irrelavent because if the feat is done via a speed buff

Who says it’s only a speed buff, again?

Says who? In the one cutscene we see them actually fighting (during their second fight) the Traveler is keeping up with just his base speed and skill

Raiden didn’t even move against base Traveler. Obv she was holding back.

Yes she was reacting to his base speed, but we never see her react to the traveler when using their elements to boost their speed (which is what would have gotten buffed from all the visions because visions as far as we know don't boost your physical stats), or even see the Traveler use that ability at all

Arguing that Traveler stomped her rather than properly fought her is just pure errenous.

Because he is using the elemental energy from the two visions to boost himself forward, it's an ability that's listed for basically every character in the verse

And why can’t Traveler use that ability?

Also i would like to add that the calc itself seems weird to me. You use lightning speed for the feat because

but Raiden isn't using lightning to attack the Traveler, she is just swinging her sword. Now if you wanna say that Raiden's sword swing is lightning speed that's fine, but in doing so you are conceding that Kazuha moved all that distance before Raiden could finish swinging her sword, which would mean that Raiden wouldn't scale to the feat either way because for the calc to even work you would be assuming that Raiden is moving massively slower than Kazuha

Same logic can go with the old calc that’s already applied.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I already stated my points back and forth and you’re severely outvoted right now. Let’s see how many ppl will agree with your points, that contradicts the storyline, cutscene and Traveler’s rating on the profile.

 

[Giannysmag]

Nothing says I can’t use a background detail. It’s literally a part of the cutscene anyways.

But it's not the part of the cutscene you are supposed to be paying close attention to. It's literally a split moment in a shot where Kazuha's movement is the focus. Again if whoever made the cutscene wanted toshow Raiden reacted to Kazuha they would have shown it

Who says it’s only a speed buff, again?

Wdym "only", are you talking about Kazuha's visions?

Raiden didn’t even move against base Traveler. Obv she was holding back.

I would argue the entire fight is way too weird for scaling, since Raiden didn't seem to be going all out at even after Traveler gained the buff + plus the 99 vision buff seems to be more metaphorical but that's a whole different discussion

Arguing that Traveler stomped her rather than properly fought her is just pure errenous.

I never said he stomped her

And why can’t Traveler use that ability?

never said he couldn't but that we never see it and more importantly that Raiden is never shown to react to it

Same logic can go with the old calc that’s already applied.

I know and i've said before that the MHS calc is also faulty, but so is yours.

you’re severely outvoted right now.

Let’s see how many ppl will agree with your points, that contradicts the storyline, cutscene and Traveler’s rating on the profile.

I would argue that is what you are doing but i digress

Anyway this discussion is obviously taking us nowhere and i doubt any more mods will come to check this thread out, so if this does pass I am absolutely making a downgrade thread for it

 

[GarrixianXD]

But it's not part of the cutscene you are supposed to be paying close attention too. It's literally a split moment in a shot where Kazuha's movement is the focus. Again if whoever made the cutscene wanted toshow Raiden reacted to Kazuha they would have shown it

Still a cutscene therefore it’s canon

Wdym "only", are you talking about Kazuha's visions?

No shit sherlock

I would argue the entire fight is way to weird for scaling, since Raiden didn't seem to be going all out at even after Traveler gained the buff + plus the 99 vision buff seems to be more metaphorical but that's a whole different discussion

Indeed Raiden didn’t go all out, thanks for proving my point Raiden clearly scales to Kazuha’s speed feat.

I never said he stomped her

Then they properly fought therefore Raiden successfully reacted and kept up with Traveler.

never said he couldn't but that we never see it and more importantly that Raiden is never shown to react to it

I know and i've said before that the MHS calc is also faulty, but so is yours.

I would argue that is what you are doing but i digress

Anyway this discussion is obviously taking us nowhere and i doubt any more mods will come to check this thread out, so if this does pass I am absolutely making a downgrade thread for it

Good luck on that lmao

 

[Woomica]

Yall going all out while im still waiting for one more vote for my crt

 

[GarrixianXD]

Yall going all out while im still waiting for one more vote for my crt

I’m only using an infinitesimal amount of power actually

 

[Giannysmag]

Still a cutscene therefore it’s canon

No it's your interpertation of a cutscene

No shit sherlock

Ok then, i never said Kazuha's duel vision was "only" a speed buff but i also don't understand what that has to do with my point

Indeed Raiden didn’t go all out, thanks for proving my point Raiden clearly scales to Kazuha’s speed feat.

How does that prove your point?

Then they properly fought therefore Raiden successfully reacted and kept up with Traveler.

We never see her reacting to them when they are boosting their speed with elements, which is when the only way they'd scale to Kazuha's feat in the first place

Good luck on that lmao

Thanks

Yall going all out while im still waiting for one more vote for my crt

I feel that, i have ROR CRT that's been in limbo for like a month now waiting for one more vote

 

[Giannysmag]

I’m only using an infinitesimal amount of power actually

Then I'm only using one infintesimal^2 of my power

 

[Woomica]

I feel that, i have ROR CRT that's been in limbo for like a month now waiting for one more vote

Wow

 

[Reiner04]

Then I'm only using one infintesimal^2 of my power

You can't beat my Garri bro. Only I beat her.

Edit: No domestic violence involved.

 

[Giannysmag]

Only I beat her.

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

Looked at the calcs the arguments and having played too much of Genshin for my own mental health (I'm recreating the in-universe recipes lol)
I have to say I agree with the CRT. Excellent job on the CRT Garrixian.

 

[Reiner04]

Shhhh.

 

[GarrixianXD]

@Giannysmag I've made myself clear multiple times already and you made me repeat myself more than once. You're severely outvoted and many of your arguments came from the argument of belief and irrelevant conclusions. You haven't made any other major points, aside from complaining about the cutscene being some animation error, which stems the argument that she wasn't aware of Kazuha, which is rather based on your personal belief; asserting "We didn't see Raiden react to the Traveler", when it's been blatantly stated that she's faster than him on the official profiles and obvious that they've fought; your other conclusion on Kazuha had a buff in-speed but the Traveler didn't despite having the same power-ups with Traveler having far bigger magnitudes is rather based on a false assumption. Nonetheless, any other doubts about this revision should be covered in another thread.

@Propellus On second thought, I'd consider it might not be fair to close all of this so I'd like a final evaluation just in case.

 

[GarrixianXD]

@DarkDragonMedeus Since your power is back on, mind giving a final evaluation once you have time?

 

[Propellus]

What are the new arguments so far?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am still in support of the proposal.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Aight, I appreciate no irrelevant derailments here.

I'm going to address all the points on why Kazuha didn't blitz Raiden, again, and make myself clear. If there aren't any new arguments then I'm not responding.

1. A potential issue argued by member @Giannysmag is that Kazuha is significantly faster than Raiden, as he claimed that Kazuha blocked Raiden's attempted to attack Aether and Paimon, and Raiden failed to react to it.

However, this is not the case, as you can see there are two scenes:


^^Ei emerges from the Plane of Euthymia and attempts to attack the Traveler.

(Play on 0.25 speed)

^^The shards from the Plane of Euthymia are gone and Raiden appears to be far further from Traveler from the previous scene; it's quite clear Raiden swapped her position since her blade is too far from the Traveler to strike him, as she swapped her position to attack Kazuha. This deduces the reality that Raiden was fully aware of Kazuha and successfully reacted to him.

2. Another OP's argument to counteract Giannysmag's argument is this scene here:


^^Kazuha barely blocked a strike from Raiden. If he was significantly faster, why didn't he dodge the attack but rather block it despite knowing the significant power difference? Kazuha didn't have enough time to dodge the attack, nor did he have the capacity to do so. Some may think he was distracted from the vision, though, he was on guard for the final second before Raiden attacked. One second would be more than enough for Kazuha to dodge the attack, considering a (3751102.4 m/s ÷ 723101.23 m/s = 5.2) 5.2x speed difference.

3. It wouldn't make any sense for Raiden to be blitzed and rated as significantly slower than Kazuha with only 2 visions, because she kept up with Traveler who got buffed with all visions from The Statue of the Omnipresent God. It would be a contradiction to assume so.

4. Nonetheless with all that aside, it would be pure Plot-Induced Stupidity for Kazuha, a mere normal human with only 2 visions, to blitz Raiden who's a literal Electro God. Raiden keeping up with visions-buffed Traveler can also support the insistence of Kazuha blitzing being PIS.

@Propellus Here's mine.

This is probably going to be my last response before i go to sleep

The lack of the sigil and her wierd position in those few frames can simply be explained by the fact that she isn't the focus of the scene (she is practically in the backround when Kazuha is moving), so whoever made the cutscene simply didn't bother to position her in the exact spot with sigil behind her. Agruing that the change in position proves that she stopped attacking the traveler (her main opponent) mid strike, moved slightly to face Kazuha and prepared to attack Kazuha instead is rather silly imo

Like i mentioned before Kazuha was looking at his visions when Raiden begun attacking so he wasn't fully paying attention to her. Also i would like to mention that Kazuha's feat was performed using the elemental speed amp (you know that thing that's listed on most profiles but rarely gets used in vs matches), so his base speed wouldn't fully scale to it anyway

We never actually see her fight the Traveler with 99 visions, so it's headcannon to assume that the Traveler used the same speed buff ability that Kazuha used and especially that Raiden reacted to it

It's not PSI to say Kazuha with elemental speed buff (from multiple visions btw) > Raiden's basic attack speed. If you wanna scale Raiden's own movement speed with elements to Kazuha based on her being a god go ahead but that would hardly scale to anyone else in the verse

Our debate starts from here.

 

[Puppet43]

All this fight for over sub relativistic in genshin, imagine if i open the FTL ctr rn lol

 

[Woomica]

All this fight for over sub relativistic in genshin, imagine if i open the FTL ctr rn lol

Didnt you say you will make tier 3 crt or sum stuff like that

 

[GarrixianXD]

I've spoken with Ginnysmag on Discord and he said he has no new arguments. Since Propellus hasn't replied, I'll assume he still agrees so I'll apply the changes in a conventional matter now.

 

[Propellus]

Looking at the arguments now, Garri's and Gianny's sides do seem to make sense but I'm a bit lost on the context of if Elemental speed has an intent of scaling to their actual reaction speed. Can someone guide me on those if that is the case?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Looking at the arguments now, Garri's and Gianny's sides do seem to make sense but I'm a bit lost on the context of if Elemental speed has an intent of scaling to their actual reaction speed. Can someone guide me on those if that is the case?

Damn, could've replied earlier. Good thing I didn't edit anything.

Raiden reacted to Kazuha and was fully aware of him; Traveler received multiple times the visions buff Kazuha acquired and had a proper fight with Raiden, despite losing the battle, however, she wasn't blitzed. According to our profiles, many characters scale to MHS+ to keep up with vision-buffed Traveler. Does this make sense?

 

[Puppet43]

Didnt you say you will make tier 3 crt or sum stuff like that

That can wait FTL Crt is more important

 

[Propellus]

Damn, could've replied earlier. Good thing I didn't edit anything.

Raiden reacted to Kazuha and was fully aware of him; Traveler received multiple times the visions buff Kazuha acquired and had a proper fight with Raiden, despite losing the battle, however, she wasn't blitzed. According to our profiles, many characters scale to MHS+ to keep up with vision-buffed Traveler. Does this make sense?

Sorry for not responding sooner as I was busy with a study session. Anyway

Reading both sides so far, I'm still leaning towards Garri's arguments as they weren't necessarily being blitzed at all in perspective.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Sorry for not responding sooner as I was busy with a study session. Anyway

Reading both sides so far, I'm still leaning towards Garri's arguments as they weren't necessarily being blitzed at all in perspective.

Should I apply changes and close thread then?

 

[Propellus]

Should I apply changes and close thread then?

Go ahead.