Genshin: Nuking Raiden Shogun's Abstract Existence Type 1 ‘Concept’

[MSahla]

Introduction
Hey so.. I think it's time that we should remove Raiden Shogun's Abstract Existence especially the Concept Type 1

Here's the justification:

• Abstract Existence (Type 1【Concept】; Raiden exists as a pure form of consciousness, with her Plane of Euthymia acting as an incarnation of her consciousness upon its creation. The Plane of Euthymia shares properties correspondent to the Realms of Consciousness which are abstract concepts stated by Yae Miko, therefore the Plane of Euthymia acts as Ei's Realm of Consciousness yet an incarnation of her own consciousness itself)

Rebuttal
Point 1: “Raiden exists as a pure form of consciousness, with her Plane of Euthymia acting as an incarnation of her consciousness upon its creation”

How do we start... Well first of all, Ei exist pure as consciousness means she exists as a mind/soul-like entity, not a physical body. Which means this is just Incorporeality ability, which she already has it:

Incorporeality (Ei exists as a disembodied consciousness within her sword "Musou Isshin", residing within the Plane of Euthymia, her personal pocket dimension)

Point 2: “The Plane of Euthymia shares properties correspondent to the Realms of Consciousness which are abstract concepts stated by Yae Miko”

This is the biggest justification of it, that the Realm of Consciousness is an abstract concept stated by Yae Miko:

Well, the realm itself can be an abstract concept, But that only describes the nature of the realm, not Ei herself. She is still the one experiencing/inhabiting it, not the concept itself. And as we know, simply just residing inside of an abstract realm does not make you an abstract existence. The Plane of Euthymia that she created merely just to save her consciousness or she who no longer has a physical body.

Morever, the Raiden Shogun in the story was never an Abstract entity who embody any concepts, and so she never purely exist as Concept itself.

Conclusion
Nuke the Raiden Shogun's AE1 and Yae Miko's NPI to Concept Type 1.

Sad day for my wives

EDIT:
As per @RaikiKurohane99's reasoning here and here, removing the Concept Type 1 but not the Abstract Existence itself seems very reasonable. And the Shogun puppet who act as Raiden Ei's Avatar should get the Type 2 of AE for embodying the abstraction (Raiden Ei).

But, that's something that the Staff should evaluate.

---

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus + SomebodyData (Same as Raiki's) - Vietthai96 (Same as Raiki's, though currently think the AE1 is only limited)
Youngwolf-0.1 - LoudestProcedure - Voidnether - Setsuna_tenma - Greg_the_master_of_gods- Natsuki012 - IReallyLoveRilysse - Furina003 + RaikiKurohane99 (Only Type 1 Concept)

Disagree: SomebodyData + DarkDragonMedeus + Vietthai96 (Same as Raiki's) -
Furina003 + RaikiKurohane99 (complete removal of AE1)

 

[Youngwolf-0.1]

Yea, the main issue with Raiden having abstract existence type 1 is that the justification doesn’t meet the actual requirement for that classification. Being a “pure consciousness” or having a realm that represents her mind does not automatically make her an abstract concept in the type 1 sense. Type 1 requires being a fundamental concept that exists independently of reality, where other things depend on that concept. In Raiden’s case, she is still an individual entity with a mind, and her Plane of Euthymia is better interpreted as a mental or pocket space rather than a fundamental conceptual layer of reality.

So I agree that the current reasoning relies more on terminology like “concept” and “independent” rather than demonstrating true conceptual existence. A downgrade to something like incorporeal or mind-based existence makes more
sense.

 

[LoudestProcedure]

Agree

 

[Voidnether]

I was planning to do this a few months back but you beated me into it by doing it first, but yeah I agree as this was supposed to be removed back then iirc. As much as I hated glazing the Shades and my insurmountable amount of hatred towards Heavenly Principles. They have a better justification of Abstract Existence compared to this, that is to say if Istaroth is not a temporal dimension and instead is an aspect of Time itself (basically you can't have HDE and AE together because they're not mutually exclusive similar to some Minecraft enhancements) but that's pretty much it yeah

 

[Furina003]

I agree that the concept-based Abstract Existence Type 1 should be eliminated. However, I disagree with the complete elimination of AE1.

In my opinion, Raiden Ei still meets the criteria for AE1, because her existence can be categorized as a consciousness-based abstraction. Consciousness itself is a fundamental form of abstraction. It encompasses, Thoughts, Memories, Emotions, and Ambition.

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it. This power has a variety of uses, ranging from a high degree of control over the abstraction and its manifestations, the aforementioned immortality, or even being unaffected by abilities that can't target the abstraction.

All of these things are not physically tangible, but they remain the foundation that supports an individual's existence. A person can "live" with identity because of this consciousness.

In the AE1 standard, abstractions don't always have to be pure concepts or information. Forms such as consciousness and mental states also fall into the category of abstractions.

Based on this, Raiden Ei exists as pure consciousness.
To interact with the physical world, she requires a medium, namely Raiden Shogun's body. Therefore, she meets the criteria for Abstract Existence Type 1 and incorporeality, as she is consciousness-based (abstraction).

Incorporeality does not have a physical form. However, it is important to distinguish between incorporeality and abstraction. If an entity is incorporeal only because it is energy or a non-abstract phenomenon, then it is considered incorporeal.
However, if the incorporeality originates from an abstraction (such as consciousness), then the entity also deserves abstract existence.

Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an intangible being's body is their true body, it just can't be affected by conventional physical forces. A incorporeal being does not usually have any kind of concrete, defined form, and can appear in many different forms if they wish, though the destruction of these bodies is of little relevance to the entity behind them.
Abstract beings are typically incorporeal.

 

[Voidnether]

I agree that the concept-based Abstract Existence Type 1 should be eliminated. However, I disagree with the complete elimination of AE1.

In my opinion, Raiden Ei still meets the criteria for AE1, because her existence can be categorized as a consciousness-based abstraction. Consciousness itself is a fundamental form of abstraction. It encompasses, Thoughts, Memories, Emotions, and Ambition.

All of these things are not physically tangible, but they remain the foundation that supports an individual's existence. A person can "live" with identity because of this consciousness.

In the AE1 standard, abstractions don't always have to be pure concepts or information. Forms such as consciousness and mental states also fall into the category of abstractions.

Based on this, Raiden Ei exists as pure consciousness.
To interact with the physical world, she requires a medium, namely Raiden Shogun's body. Therefore, she meets the criteria for Abstract Existence Type 1 and incorporeality, as she is consciousness-based (abstraction).

Incorporeality does not have a physical form. However, it is important to distinguish between incorporeality and abstraction. If an entity is incorporeal only because it is energy or a non-abstract phenomenon, then it is considered incorporeal.
However, if the incorporeality originates from an abstraction (such as consciousness), then the entity also deserves abstract existence.

Then again we know that the Plane of Euthymia is her own consciousness at the same time, the point is that unless we are arguing Raiden Ei is dissolved within Plane of Euthymia and that they're one, that's like the only way to get Abstract Existence else it's just Raiden Ei being inside an abstract realm which definitely doesn't give AE

 

[Furina003]

Then again we know that the Plane of Euthymia is her own consciousness at the same time, the point is that unless we are arguing Raiden Ei is dissolved within Plane of Euthymia and that they're one, that's like the only way to get Abstract Existence else it's just Raiden Ei being inside an abstract realm which definitely doesn't give AE

Raiden Ei is purely present as a consciousness, it is clear, because of that reason why she moved her existence in the space of consciousness

 

[MSahla]

Snip

Are we even considered Consciousness = Fundamental Abstraction here in this wiki or in general? Some staff gotta see this first.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree.

 

[Furina003]

Are we even considered Consciousness = Fundamental Abstraction here in this wiki or in general? Some staff gotta see this first.

This isn't actually a problem, because the mind itself is an abstraction. It encompasses thoughts, etc.

So, abstractions don't have to be concepts or information. Things like laws, causality, plots, and the mind are also abstractions.

I agree that the concept-based Abstract Existence Type 1 should be eliminated. However, I disagree with the complete elimination of AE1.

In my opinion, Raiden Ei still meets the criteria for AE1, because her existence can be categorized as a consciousness-based abstraction. Consciousness itself is a fundamental form of abstraction. It encompasses, Thoughts, Memories, Emotions, and Ambition.

All of these things are not physically tangible, but they remain the foundation that supports an individual's existence. A person can "live" with identity because of this consciousness.

In the AE1 standard, abstractions don't always have to be pure concepts or information. Forms such as consciousness and mental states also fall into the category of abstractions.

Based on this, Raiden Ei exists as pure consciousness.
To interact with the physical world, she requires a medium, namely Raiden Shogun's body. Therefore, she meets the criteria for Abstract Existence Type 1 and incorporeality, as she is consciousness-based (abstraction).

Incorporeality does not have a physical form. However, it is important to distinguish between incorporeality and abstraction. If an entity is incorporeal only because it is energy or a non-abstract phenomenon, then it is considered incorporeal.
However, if the incorporeality originates from an abstraction (such as consciousness), then the entity also deserves abstract existence.

I just want the staff to consider these arguments, before making a decision, so yeah that's all.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

I agree with the removal of the "Concept" rating, but not Abstract Existence itself.

Abstract Existence entities are technically Incorporeal but the vice versa isn't always true.

Abstract Existence

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it. This power has a variety of uses, ranging from a high degree of control over the abstraction and its manifestations, the aforementioned immortality, or even...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Abstract Existence is when their existence as an abstraction gives them some form of immortality. In this case, it gives her puppets a mind of immortality as she can replace them if destroyed.

Incorporeality is if she would be forced to roam the world as a mind/consciousness but cannot make a physical body of her own, and has to posssess one.

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

I agree.

 

[Youngwolf-0.1]

I agree with the removal of the "Concept" rating, but not Abstract Existence itself.

Abstract Existence entities are technically Incorporeal but the vice versa isn't always true.

Abstract Existence

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it. This power has a variety of uses, ranging from a high degree of control over the abstraction and its manifestations, the aforementioned immortality, or even...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Abstract Existence is when their existence as an abstraction gives them some form of immortality. In this case, it gives her puppets a mind of immortality as she can replace them if destroyed.

Incorporeality is if she would be forced to roam the world as a mind/consciousness but cannot make a physical body of her own, and has to posssess one.

I think there’s still a mix-up here between what Abstract Existence actually requires and what Ei is shown to do.

You’re right that Abstract Existence and Incorporeality aren’t the same, but Abstract Existence still fundamentally requires that the character embodies an abstraction (like a concept, thought, or information) in a way where that abstraction is their actual form of existence. The immortality comes from that state, not just from having a backup method or replacement bodies.

In Ei’s case, what’s shown is that

• Her true self is a consciousness in the Plane of Euthymia
• She can control or replace puppet bodies

That fits much more cleanly with something like incorporeal/mind-based existence + avatar mechanics, rather than abstract existence. The puppets having “immortality” comes from her being able to create or replace them, not because they are manifestations of an abstract concept that she embodies.

So even if we remove the “concept” part, there still isn’t clear evidence that her existence itself is an abstraction in the VSB sense. It’s closer to a consciousness controlling vessels, not a being whose existence is defined as an abstract entity.

Abstract Existence still seems
unsupported.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

I think there’s still a mix-up here between what Abstract Existence actually requires and what Ei is shown to do.

You’re right that Abstract Existence and Incorporeality aren’t the same, but Abstract Existence still fundamentally requires that the character embodies an abstraction (like a concept, thought, or information) in a way where that abstraction is their actual form of existence. The immortality comes from that state, not just from having a backup method or replacement bodies.

In Ei’s case, what’s shown is that

• Her true self is a consciousness in the Plane of Euthymia
• She can control or replace puppet bodies

That fits much more cleanly with something like incorporeal/mind-based existence + avatar mechanics, rather than abstract existence. The puppets having “immortality” comes from her being able to create or replace them, not because they are manifestations of an abstract concept that she embodies.

So even if we remove the “concept” part, there still isn’t clear evidence that her existence itself is an abstraction in the VSB sense. It’s closer to a consciousness controlling vessels, not a being whose existence is defined as an abstract entity.

Abstract Existence still seems
unsupported.

Abstract Existence is basically Incorporeality + Avatar/Immortality mechanics.

If an abstraction directly creates an avatar for it to use, we would assume the physical form embodies the abstraction.

That is why embodying a concept alone is not enough for Abstract Existence unless some immortality is granted thanks to that relation.

Her consciousness would be Type 1 of Abstract Existence while her physical body would be Type 2.

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

sahl removing wanked hax… this can make a grown man cry

 

[Natsuki012]

Agree

 

[OmniScalator]

Well, according to first dialog you referred to, she is not just residing in that realm, that realm itself is her incarnation, in other words, she is whole realm itself

That is if what your first point rebutted or "incarnation" thing is actual dialog

 

[Furina003]

Well, according to first dialog you referred to, she is not just residing in that realm, that realm itself is her incarnation, in other words, she is whole realm itself

That is if what your first point rebutted or "incarnation" thing is actual dialog

This actually makes sense and is interesting. I remember this:

The automaton had but one question to ask Ei: "There is no turning back from forsaking your form. Do you regret nothing?"

"Your existence is my answer."

Then, Ei transferred her consciousness into her blade, and thus was born the Plane of Euthymia.

because basically POE was born because of Ei own consciousness.

 

[MSahla]

Well, according to first dialog you referred to, she is not just residing in that realm, that realm itself is her incarnation, in other words, she is whole realm itself

That is if what your first point rebutted or "incarnation" thing is actual dialog

There's no statement of the realm is her “incarnation”, that's just made up for the justification.

 

[MSahla]

I think the argument of her pure as Consciousness form and lack of physical form and therefore still have Type 1 could work, but we definitely should nuke the concept type 1 for an obvious reason.

But, i'll just let the staffs to evaluate that.

 

[IReallyLoveRilysse]

Agree

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Snip

Could you perhaps help me by ping some staffs please? Thank you.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Could you perhaps help me by ping some staffs please? Thank you.

Of course
Tell me who you want

 

[MSahla]

Of course
Tell me who you want

Twilight, Planck, Lephyr, Random Helper, Nierre, Oblivion, and DDM.

Those are the ones that i see most often.

 

[Vietthai96]

Scare of calling me i see, cause i disagree with many Genshin wanks

Anyway, didn't the concept stuff from these Ei scans was removed in thr past threads?

 

[MSahla]

Scare of calling me i see, cause i disagree with many Genshin wanks

Nah, seems like you didn't like to see Genshin CRTs so i stopped mentioning or even requesting you in ur msg wall. (Just like Armorchompy)

Anyway, didn't the concept stuff from these Ei scan was removed from past threads?

It only removed the CM1, not the AE. Somehow..

 

[MSahla]

This Concept Type 1 should obviously be removed. But, due to @RaikiKurohane99 reasoning above, there seems to be more reasonable things to keep the AE without involving the Concept Type 1.

But that's the staff job to evaluate.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Your help is appreciated here

@TWILIGHT-OP
@Planck69
@LephyrTheRevanchist
@Random-Helper323
@Nierre
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
@DarkDragonMedeus

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My thoughts are the same as Raiki's.

 

[MSahla]

Abstract Existence is when their existence as an abstraction gives them some form of immortality. In this case, it gives her puppets a mind of immortality as she can replace them if destroyed.

Question regarding this. So, the bolded part is the justification for both Immortality Type 8 and 9 currently. If the Type 2 of Abstract Existence you offered got accepted, should it be replaced with AE2 or keep it?

I think it'll be keep it and make another or similar justification for it?

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Question regarding this. So, the bolded part is the justification for both Immortality Type 8 and 9 currently. If the Type 2 of Abstract Existence you offered got accepted, should it be replaced with AE2 or keep it?

I think it'll be keep it and make another or similar justification for it?

It would be Type 1 for the Consciousness in the mental world, while the physical body will have Type 2

 

[MSahla]

It would be Type 1 for the Consciousness in the mental world, while the physical body will have Type 2

I know that, but that didn't answer my question:

So, the bolded part is the justification for both Immortality Type 8 and 9 currently. If the Type 2 of Abstract Existence you offered got accepted, should it be replaced with AE2 or keep it?

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

I know that, but that didn't answer my question:

That would be a question best asked to a content moderator.

Although, I think you could keep it, just reword it.

 

[MSahla]

That would be a question best asked to a content moderator.

Although, I think you could keep it, just reword it.

I just wanted to know your opinion so.. Maybe other staff will have the same opinion as you. (Just like DDM who just got here)

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

I just wanted to know your opinion so.. Maybe other staff will have the same opinion as you. (Just like DDM who just got here)

Ah, okay. After checking the profile, you can just add the Abstract Existence Type 2 to Raiden Shogun while Raiden Ei keeps the Type 1 as is.

 

[Vietthai96]

Do she exist as pure consciousness or not?

 

[MSahla]

Do she exist as pure consciousness or not?

Yes. She sacrificed her physical body and exist purely as a consciousness within the Plane of Euthymia. Then she created the Shogun as her “Avatar” to basically interacting with the outside world.

For beings with a perishable form of flesh to pursue Eternity, they must first solve the unavoidable problem of lifespan.

This limited time troubled Ei greatly, until one day when a mysterious technique came before her eyes as if by a stroke of fate.

Using such techniques, one could create intricate puppets indistinguishable from true life.

In theory, this puppet could perfectly imitate everything about Ei. It could surpass the limits of her lifespan and defend Inazuma forever. Yet, how could creating a copy of an Archon be a simple affair?

Ei conducted countless experiments to this effect, discarded a great many failed products, and spent an unimaginable amount of time and resources—

But at last, by her dogged pursuit and warrior's spirit, she was able to create a flawless puppet.

The newborn Raiden Shogun sat there silently, listening to Ei speak all about her, "her," and even about them. The future of Inazuma was here, inscribed upon a gorgeous blueprint.

The automaton had but one question to ask Ei: "There is no turning back from forsaking your form. Do you regret nothing?"

"Your existence is my answer."

Then, Ei transferred her consciousness into her blade, and thus was born the Plane of Euthymia.

 

[Vietthai96]

Then, Ei transferred her consciousness into her blade, and thus was born the Plane of Euthymia.

Yeah lol, so she can have AE1 but is limited within the Plane of Euthymia, because this whole thing is just she transferred her consciousness into her blade while her physical body is actually a puppet

 

[MSahla]

Yeah lol, so she can have AE1 but is limited within the Plane of Euthymia, because this whole thing is just she transferred her consciousness into her blade while her physical body is actually a puppet

But she's there permanently, meaning she's permanently exist pure as consciousness.

Before she came to dwell in the Plane of Euthymia permanently, Ei was troubled for a time concerning where she might store her Gnosis.

She no longer had any need of it, but such an important item could not simply be placed anywhere. She had initially intended to have it modified into a energy supply device, but no matter what she did, her techniques had no effect on the Gnosis at all.

Character Story - Gnosis

So, even if she get out of the Plane of Euthymia, she will never get a Physical Body because she will just exist as Consciousness as she's already sacrificed her physical form. The Plane of Euthymia is a manifestation of her own consciousness. So her existence isn’t restricted by the Plane, but the Plane itself exists because of her, and it's also function to preserve her being as said by Yae Miko above.

That's why the Plane of Euthymia was born after she sacrificed her physical form and turn into a consciousness being:

The automaton had but one question to ask Ei: "There is no turning back from forsaking your form. Do you regret nothing?"

"Your existence is my answer."

Then, Ei transferred her consciousness into her blade, and thus was born the Plane of Euthymia.