Gambit Revision

[Anderson2003]

Gambit's absolute potential has been shown in the comic New Sun. Our Gambit (616) went through surgery so that his potential would be restricted. Gambit in the New Sun reality killed Jean Grey (as Phoenix) and, by accident, wiped all life on Earth (including Hulk, possibly Thor and all Marvel beings that resided on Earth at the point). He attempted to rewind time, but ended up having access to the Spiral of Worlds, a gateway to the Multiverse, where he vowed to keep all Gambits from doing the same and reaching his maximum potential.

All things considered, Gambit at his fullest potential should be At least Solar System level, likely much higher. His abilities are Total Kinetic Control, described as:

"Control of kinetic energy at a molecular level. He could turn an object's potential energy into kinetic energy, making it explosive. He does not need to make physical contact to do so, nor does he have a block to prevent him from using this on a living being.

He can cause another being to be unable to move or unable to stop if in motion. He was able to cause or simulate various energies by manipulating the kinetic energy present, such as infrared and microwaves by increasing molecular agitation, or cold by reducing it.

Lastly he could transform himself into an energy wave to travel through space and into other dimensions."

Other than that, Gambit's Kinetic Control has been able to defeat the likes of Juggernaut, the Gladiator and others on occasion, and then there's Gambit vs New Sun, his top potential, which ended in this:



There`s also Death Gambit, which should be a key, considering he gains new powers and abilities and has his own share of feats, including bypassing Durability through "Death Charge", I'll add more input later.

Edit: And also the Witness, which is Gambit at his full potential(?) in a possible future where he has fused with time itself and controls the sequence of events and such.

 

[Promestein]

Nope, definitely not likely much higher, just 4-B at best if this is all accurate.

 

[Meosos]

I agree that his page needs an upgrade. Do you have proof that he defeated phoenix and co ?

 

[Anderson2003]

Nope, definitely not likely much higher, just 4-B at best if this is all accurate.

Mind you, Sentry, Hulk and many 4-B beings were on the planet and he accidentally murdered them all on a kinetic-mystical mix that didnt work out. He didnt wish to kill all 4-B beings, one of which has the power of a million exploding suns. He did so casually. Yeah, I overdid myself on the "Likely Much Higher". But it is accurate, it all happened during the 1999, 2000 run of Gambit Vol 3. You can read it yourself on the interwebz if you wish.

Also, the read I posted shows that, according to the comic, Gambit accessed all of his power for a brief moment and directed it all into New Sun, causing him to overload. This should also be a 4-B feat for a "Full Power" key. So, on Gambit's good days, he is 4-B. His cards have varied from 7-A to 4-B apparently.

Witness fused with time, is present in all points of time at once and is known for manipulating Bishop's timeline. I don't know how that would be measured, but it should be pretty high up there.

Also, here:

 

[Meosos]

The feat you showe seems only like a High 6-A feat.

 

[Anderson2003]

Referring to what feat? New Sun is obviously 4-B. He killed a 4-B being and then destroyed the Planet in a instant, a Planet that contained 4-B beings such as Hulk and Sentry, so he has killed 4-B beings before and has that amount of power. Then comes Gambit and at his fullest power, makes New Sun burst due to overload, making him 4-B as well.

EDIT: Also, mind you, it wasn't New Sun's direct attack, power or outburst that caused said destruction. His relation to the Old Kingdom led to a butterfly effect leading into a Surface Wiping effect. As shown before, New Sun is 4-B due to killing Phoenix.

EDIT 2: ALSO mentioned before, Gambit's top feats are 4-B anyways, so the full extent of his power should rank up to those levels through beating Juggernaut and Gladiator.

 

[Anderson2003]

bump

 

[Meosos]

What other 4-B feats does he have ?

 

[Anderson2003]

Defeating the likes of Juggernaut, Gladiator and New Sun. The New Sun scan is already up there. There are many other fights with Juggernaut, but I'd have to work a bit harder to find scans.



Pretty sure I can find others if needed.
EDIT: I just noticed New Sun's incarnation of Gambit is listed under his 'Notable Attacks/Techniques', where things such as Kinetic Energy should be and aren't. New Sun/Full Potential Gambit should be a new key altogether, along with The Witness (gonna try to provide some scans about him soon as well).

 

[Antvasima]

Defeating Gladiator is definitely a very illogical outlier for normal Gambit.

However, the "New Sun" future version of himself might warrant an additional profile. I am not sure that he is important enough though.

 

[Anderson2003]

Defeating Gladiator is definitely a very illogical outlier for normal Gambit.
However, the "New Sun" future version of himself might warrant an additional profile. I am not sure that he is important enough though.

New Sun represents his full potential. The full extent of Gambit's power. Our Gambit, even if he went through surgery to be unable to tap into that potential, still has access to said powers sometimes, such as when he defeated New Sun.

The Key I suggest, instead of being simply his New Sun incarnation, is his Full Potential. Gambit has been shown to be able to tap into his full power at times. I don't know how that translates into his 4-B feats (which happened more often than I actually imagined), that's why I showed them.

Other than New Sun, there is also Witness and Death Gambit, both of which possess wider range of powers and capabilities which Im seeking to find to post here in a clearer way.

I believe just saying it flat out with no scans is as good as nothing, but basically, Witness is one with time, controls it and manipulated a whole timeline and Death Gambit is amped up Gambit that can turn air "noxious", use a "death charge" that breaks down living matter, totally desintegrating the victim, could imprison those struck by his cards and could apparently control his cards mentally.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that his full potential should scale from New Sun.

What explicit indications do we have of New Sun's full scale of power?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

4-B Gambit is definitely an outlier, and New Sun Gambit is also definitely stronger.

However, Gambit should be 8-C considering he can blow up Sentinels with ease with his cards.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he is already scaled to 8-A from Wolverine, Captain America, Deadpool, and Daken, even on a physical level.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think he is 8-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Neither do I, but he is rated as such.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The problem we used to have with Cosmic Characters before the 5-B / High 5-A / 4-B division we are having with Street levelers.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed. I am open for suggestions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A division that is 9-B (Or 9-A, maybe), 8-C and 8-A.

I could definitely see X-Men characters serving to make the in-between there, because Sentinels are almost always Building level.

 

[Anderson2003]

Found many scans to provide for Death Gambit's Key. They are all out of order due to a mistake of mine, so I apologize for that, but it should be clear enough of his capacities.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Yes, that seems fine. However, we have to get a page that explains how they should be scaled, and from which feats.

 

[Anderson2003]

Also, Gambit has physically fought with Spider-Man, Captain America, Deadpool, Daken, Wolverine (MANY times and in different realities), Crossbones and others which makes him consistently above 8-C. He also beat Sabretooth while blind, if I recall.

I have no idea how that scales, Antvasima. He fought Canonball, easily defeated Rogue, could kill Apocalypse through noxious air and easily defeated IceMan. Considering he actually beat Rogue twice (at first, he puts her down with one blow and she is saved, then the second scan), he should be stronger than her. And yes, Full Potential Gambit scales to New Sun, if not above him considering that FP Gambit was who defeated him through overloading him with energy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Literally everyone has fought everyone in Marvel.

 

[Anderson2003]

Also, about Gambit's image, I suggest using these instead:

 

[Anderson2003]

Literally everyone has fought everyone in Marvel.

Yeah, but Gambit has still been consistently shown as 8-A, not 8-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew is correct. Everybody has fought everybody in Marvel, regardless how little sense it makes. I think that Gambit is supposed to be physically below all of the examples currently listed in his page.

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, it would be helpful if we had a page that clarifies the Marvel scaling tiers.

 

[Anderson2003]

Matthew is correct. Everybody has fought everybody in Marvel, regardless how little sense it makes. I think that Gambit is supposed to be physically below all of the examples currently listed in his page.
Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, it would be helpful if we had a page that clarifies the Marvel scaling tiers.

Why exactly? "I think" and "I don't think" without providing anything BUT opinion with little to no base on facts mean nothing. Gambit has CONSISTENTLY (mind the word) been shown as 8-A, outliers are outliers, I agree with Matthew on that, but many coincidences is a pattern. And the pattern is, Gambit stands up and can defeat 8-As, sometimes with no difficulties. There are many battles of his against 8-As to prove that, hence his rating. And here, another one, just for the sake of it:


There are few more panels of battle where they are even before this, but results are results.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Matthew is correct. Everybody has fought everybody in Marvel, regardless how little sense it makes. I think that Gambit is supposed to be physically below all of the examples currently listed in his page.

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, it would be helpful if we had a page that clarifies the Marvel scaling tiers.

When i made up the revisons i proposed he would be that tier with his explosions he generates himself, don't know why thay wasn't put in place...

 

[Anderson2003]

When i made up the revisons i proposed he would be that tier with his explosions he generates himself, don't know why thay wasn't put in place...

He has still shown to be able to match 8-A folks at physical combat. If you wish, I can spam this thread with scans. Seriously, its gonna be a massive amount of scans. Of course, he also uses his cards during the fight, but he does match them in combat without them. If that is required, I'll be here to show all the scans I have.

Other than that, I think that Death Gambit should be At least High 6-C. Unknown with kinectic energy manipulation (Physcally beat Rogue consistently, his "Death Charge" is superior to Gambit's usual kinectic manipulation). He would also get his new abilities, such as Death Charge, Toxic Transmutation, Card Imprisonment and Corruption (Stronger Charge, Turns the air noxious (stated to be able to kill Apocalypse), a seal if any card hits and a Mind Manipulation that only stopped when Gambit had Death's control restrained by magical weapons). He can apparently choose to go into Death in the same comic where he uses his Card Imprisonment, but in other occasions this isn't the case, so yeah.

Gambit at his Full Potential should be 4-B scaling from New Sun (Killed the Phoenix and wiped the life on Earth, including Sentry and Hulk), has already been debated. Possible that he can scale to other Omega Level mutants.

And I have to go find Witness scans now, but he should be something like Low 2-C similar to Superboy-Prime due to being "one with time" if the knowledge I have regarding him is true.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Marvel's official handbooks state that Gambit is supposed to be physically below Captain America, but we are trying to stop using them, so I suppose that you have a point.

Regarding his full potential, the problem is that we need some explicit proof that New Sun defeated the Phoenix and the Hulk (who was presented as far less powerful at the time), and the Sentry was not even invented back when that storyline occurred.

 

[Anderson2003]

There, Ant. He flat outs says he killed the Phoenix and was "banned" from the X-Men and then, after doing a ritual, his kinectic energy didnt go right with mysticality, causing the entire surface of Earth to be destroyed, killing literally everyone on the process. While attempting to use his power to rewind time, he found out a way to travel between realities and vowed to stop Gambit's from falling into the same course as he did. He goes bad and is killed by Gambit when he taps into his full power.

Also, pretty sure Hulk was always relatable to Thor who has his own set of feats that puts him quite high, even at earlier Marvel times. I mean, Thor fought Gladiator WAAAAY back in the day. Anyways, there it is.

Ant, the handbooks are not reliable. I wouldn't say they are complete trash, but dont use them as a main source above feats in any moment because there are many inconsistencies with plot and scaling.

Take it the same way JoJo's stats are tempered with, for instance, Emperor. The Emperor, and Hol Horse, managed to outreact and outspeed Polnareff's Silver Chariot and would've killed him, has B in "Attack" and "Speed". Ok, no Stands have As usually other than Jotaro's and Dio's, but then he has an E on how precise it is despite reacting at extremely precise manners, being able to get out of course to dodge Chariot and then go back into course in Polnareff's direction.

EDIT: Also, during the photos that are shown during New Sun's origin is told, it appears to show New Sun killing Apocalypse and opening portals to space (possibly bfr'ing him) considering that light blue (New Sun's energy color) and Gambit before turning into New Sun are highlighted. This would further place him at 4-B, but pretty sure it isn't 100% reliable.

TL;DR: Handbooks aren't precise, take it with salt. Reads are here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that Gambit can keep his 8-A physical rating, and get a 4-B maximum potential key.

We need something more useful than Gladiator to scale or calculate his normal capacity from, however.

 

[Anderson2003]

Okay. I suppose that Gambit can keep his 8-A physical rating, and get a 4-B maximum potential key.
We need something more useful than Gladiator to scale or calculate his normal capacity from, however.

True, I have no idea how his Cards would be rated. As I said, they seem to vary up until 4-B. So I guess, for the time being, it should be At Least 8-A, considering his cards are superior to his physicality and it depends on the size of the object, for how long he charged it and tons of factors. The same should count for the other versions of Gambit.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Unknown seems better than "At least 8-A". Gladiator is a massive outlier.

 

[Anderson2003]

I think that Unknown seems better than "At least 8-A". Gladiator is a massive outlier.

It wasn't the only time Gambit has shown 4-B capacity. He has fought Juggernaut in the past and pretty sure there are more, but Gambit is quite underrated and I cant seem to find anything. He also fought Canonball as Death and Canonball has beaten Gladiator before (seriously, who LOSES to Gladiator?).

 

[Antvasima]

Fighting the Juggernaut without having much of an effect is not remotely grounds for 4-B. Cannonball did not beat Gladiator, but it was nevertheless a massive illogical inconsistency for him to even be an inconvenience, considering their respective demonstrated power levels.

Marvel is the king of inconsistency in our wiki. Dormammu has beaten Multi-Eternity, and been damaged by Cyclops and Frankenstein's Monster. Chaos and Order have beaten the Living Tribunal and been beaten in turn by the Black Panther. Most of their matchup results do not make any sense.

 

[Anderson2003]

I agree its BS, just saying that Gambit has reached those points of power sometimes as PIS. Also, he stomped Juggernaut, which is massive PIS, but he did. Cannonball actually DID beat Gladiator during Uncanny X-Men #341, also bs but yeah, he did. Major inconsistencies happen, I just exemplified them showing that he has reached said points sometimes. I am NOT defending Gambit being 4-B on his cards, if thats what it seems.

Marveil is the king of incosnsitency everywhere. Franklin Richards statements, anyone? Heck, Spidey beat Hulk knocking him out with a CEMENT TRUCK. I have nothing to say other than that, really.

But yeah, is it settled then? Gambit at Full Potential is 4-B, Death Gambit is At least High 6-C for easily defeating Rogue and his Death Charge is superior to normal Gambit's and that's about it I guess. I actually read about Witness, he knew everything about time and was basically one with it, but was killed by a nobody and doesn't seem important at all.

 

[Antvasima]

Cannonball simply punched Gladiator to the ground, but the latter quickly got up again undamaged. I have not read the story of Gambit supposedly stomping the Juggernaut however.

In any case, I suppose that those seem like reasonable changes, yes.

 

[Anderson2003]

Cannonball simply punched Gladiator to the ground, but the latter quickly got up again undamaged. I have not read the story of Gambit supposedly stomping the Juggernaut however.
In any case, I suppose that those seem like reasonable changes, yes.

Honestly? Me neither. I just found the scans on some debates argumenting that Gambit was actually Thor level (I swear Im not joking). Apparently Juggernaut was weakened as well.

Also, is someone going to open the page and I edit it out or..?

Here they are:

 

[Antvasima]

I can unlock the page for you. However, as you can read from Storm's comment, the Juggernaut was apparently sick and at nowhere near full power at the time.