Gabimaru doesnt fear the reaper

[azontr]

@DaReaperMan you can just use Pre-Tao Gabimaru. It doesn't really change my argument either way.

 

[DaReaperMan]

@DaReaperMan you can just use Pre-Tao Gabimaru. It doesn't really change my argument either way.

OK. That it is.

 

[azontr]

Reapers seem to be active all the time regardless of day and night, but it's hard to compare that with "staying awake for 10 days straight" since that's not really combat appliccable.

Note that this stamina also applies to things like choking or drowning. Iwagakure Shinobi spend the entirety of their childhood training so they can be impervious to any form of natural or man-made death, and Gabimaru specifically endured literally every form of execution the magistrate could offer without being affected, which would include being drowned to death.

Admittedly, the one that kept fighting Margerit had one eye removed out of its socket and another damn near carved out. As noted by Marg: wounded, but still very deadly. Marg was using (according to Bart Torgal who saw the beginning of that fight) a jagged piece of scrap metal, and initially Marg had managed to pierce the Reaper's neck, but it managed to shake her off and keep on fighting (leading to the eye stabbing).

It took about four minutes for her to kill him (all the oxygen she had left), and she implies she did so by carving a hole through its ribcage while it was blinded and spiraling deeper into the water, in a rare showing of intelligence where the Reaper was attempting to drown its prey.

If it took someone with much less killing experience than Gabimaru only 4 minutes to kill the thing then I think it'd take Gabimaru a significantly less amount of time for Gabimaru to kill it.

Gabi is clearly smarter by virtue of Reapers being little more than mindless brutes but this is a pretty relentless killing machine that attacks just about anything in sight and can only be warded off with some food, a tactic that only temporarily works and that I don't think Gabi would use. Smaller size should help him the same way it did Margerit... but Margerit had equipment that allowed her to fight well underwater, which Gabi lacks.

Gabimaru actually doesn't enjoy killing so if luring the thing to some food is a way he can use to temporarily hold it off, he'd use it.

I don't think the Leviathan being relentless is a very good argument against Gabimaru. Gabimaru is probably even more relentless and determined to kill when he's set his mind on it, given, again, Iwagakure Shinobi can and will stalk their targets for 10 days straight without sleep, and can simply turn off their thoughts to focus on nothing but killing the opponent.

don't think pressure points would work given its alien physiology, not just alien in the extraterrestrial sense but the fact that this is an animal unlike any Gabi has encountered (unless he's encountered some other oarfish-serpent-spider-shark thingy in his story). Same would go for all those martial arts skills made to combat humans and not sea monsters from outer space.

Gabimaru ironically has encountered (and fought and beaten) monsters that are literally shaped like fish and other impossible creatures with non-human physiology, so there's that.

And I doubt it'd take a very long time for Gabimaru to identify the weak points of the fish (should it have any), given he's shown to be constantly adapting his options in combat; When he encountered a regenerating opponent he was constantly on his toes to identify what would kill it after all of his options including simply setting them on fire didn't work, so he's eventually going to find a way to kill it.

I reckon Gabi can dodge around for a bit after surviving the initial 10 m assault (a 10 meter distance between a Reaper and a man-sized prey item is extremely small considering the Reaper is 55 m long and its face claws can extend far more than 10 meters, even when they aren't extended they're about 14-ish meters, so Gabi is pretty much right in front of the Reaper's face as if he's basically been dropped into a tank just to feed the giant predator), and may get a few good hits in thanks to his smaller size, but it won't result in lasting enough damage (considering how Reapers seem to ignore most kinds of external damage) and he's eventually going to be shaken off if he holds onto any of its fins and I don't think Gabi can endlessly hold his breath to survive a fight reaching the deeper parts of the Dunes (which are 400 meters down).

Gabimaru's used to dodging attacks that basically instantly close any form of distance (ranged attacks, invisible projectiles, giant tentacles, etc), and given if the Reaper even comes minutely close to killing him Gabimaru will instinctively predict his own death and just take the necessary steps to avoid it.

Gabi's eventually going to have to come up for air and potentially get impaled by the Reaper's spider-like mandibles or rammed and hit by the thing's horn portrusion after taking far stronger impacts than anything Gabi's endured. His techniques don't really work against something like a Reaper (I'd reckon especially since they're fighting underwater), while the beast is very much in its element and able to use it to its advantage.

He's not going to have to come up for air as stated above, and even if he DID have to and the Reaper makes an attempt to impale him he's just going to be intuitively informed of his own impending doom and then just dodge the attack, then slice off one of the things fins.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

If it took someone with much less killing experience than Gabimaru only 4 minutes to kill the thing then I think it'd take Gabimaru a significantly less amount of time for Gabimaru to kill it.

Admittedly Marg had a speed advantage and is a mercenary in her 60s, I don't think she's lacking in killing experience at all, especially since she went on to kill other Leviathan-class predators in other sections of the planet while she was stranded there.

Note that this stamina also applies to things like choking or drowning. Iwagakure Shinobi spend the entirety of their childhood training so they can be impervious to any form of natural or man-made death, and Gabimaru specifically endured literally every form of execution the magistrate could offer without being affected, which would include being drowned to death.

But he can still be killed, no? The Reaper won't just attempt to drown the prey, it's also going to attempt to stab it, eat it or use its mandibles to grab its prey and toss it into its jaws.

The phrasing there almost makes it seem like he's immortal or something xD

Also, that's training against things that could kill them, but that doesn't necessarily imply he can hold his breath indefinitely... If he can do that, his page doesn't mention that.

Gabimaru actually doesn't enjoy killing so if luring the thing to some food is a way he can use to temporarily hold it off, he'd use it.

If he knows how to do that, he can do that. It'd be a valuable distraction since doing so in Subnautica means the Reaper leaves you alone for the next few seconds.

Not sure if he can like, analyze the Reaper and get that much info.

I don't think the Leviathan being relentless is a very good argument against Gabimaru. Gabimaru is probably even more relentless and determined to kill when he's set his mind on it, given, again, Iwagakure Shinobi can and will stalk their targets for 10 days straight without sleep, and can simply turn off their thoughts to focus on nothing but killing the opponent.

The most relentless a Reaper gets is one mentioned in a PDA log where it attacked the Deep Grand Reef Degasi base to where another Reaper had been taken for study by Marg, either to eat that other member of its species or maybe save/avenge it. The base in particular is anywhere from half a kilometer to more than a kilometer away from where Reapers typically roam, and during that Reaper's scuffle with Margerit it was heading towards the crater edge, also known as the void, where far bigger Leviathan-class creatures roam and with a depth of more than 8 km.

The Dunes are right next to the void so this Reaper could also use that tactic, even if they normally remain within their own territory. If Gabi does enough damage to it, the Reaper could try it, leaving Gabi to face off the hordes of Ghost Leviathans in the void.

Gabimaru ironically has encountered (and fought and beaten) monsters that are literally shaped like fish and other impossible creatures with non-human physiology, so there's that.

That's fair, then I guess those could work. Admittedly the Reaper isn't really like any real life fish (its caudal fin is closer to a dolphin's but even then it's way weirder), but there's a good chance Gabi could figure out the weakpoints for it. Not sure how effective those might be underwater though.

That said, against an opponent that much stronger and equally quick, I don't think there's as much room to breathe and try things out. Marg and Ryley could dodge around through superior speed and equipment, but that's not something Gabi has here.

Gabimaru's used to dodging attacks that basically instantly close any form of distance (ranged attacks, invisible projectiles, giant tentacles, etc), and given if the Reaper even comes minutely close to killing him Gabimaru will instinctively predict his own death and just take the necessary steps to avoid it.

He's not going to have to come up for air as stated above, and even if he DID have to and the Reaper makes an attempt to impale him he's just going to be intuitively informed of his own impending doom and then just dodge the attack, then slice off one of the things fins.

Admittedly, with an AP/Durability difference that huge and with speed equalized, I don't think that's likely to happen. The only things that can visibly harm Reapers on 4546B are other Reapers (facial scars show that they fight others of their species), their immensely stronger predators (the Sea Dragons) and special late 22nd century tech like P.R.A.W.N. exosuits.

Gabi is smarter and might be able to scan for weakpoints, but he's going to be far less effective underwater while the Reaper is superior when it comes to strength and durability and is not hindered by the environment at all, in fact he's literally right at home

The closest things to obvious weakpoints the Reaper has are the eyeballs but tearing those out doesn't really do anything (as shown by the fight with Marg), plus the Reaper's sonar allowing it to see anything that can hear its roar for hundreds of meters around it. Gabi could try punching through the ribcage (that seems like the one way to put down a Reaper for good, 'cause it's got crazy enough endurance to have eyes being ripped out without issue) but with the +4-6x yield difference stated above I don't see him doing that.

That instinctive/analysis/precog-esque thingy Gabi's got to see his own impending doom could work at first to dodge the Reaper (again, at a 10 m distance between the two, he's practically in the Reaper's face), but once he does that, at equalized speeds... I'm not sure he can dodge it again, I feel like for that he'd have to be way faster. If he uses the dodge to his advantage in order to hold onto the Reaper, I don't see him doing anything but get shaken off, as the Reaper is superior LS-wise.

To summarize for the tl;dr crowd:

Reaper advantages - Stronger and tougher (AP/Durability difference of +4 to +6 times), equal speed, home field advantage and knowledge, 10 meter distance means Gabi is pretty much right in front of it by virtue of size, crazy level of endurance (gouging and cutting out its eyeballs doesn't slow it down at all or deter its standard hyper aggressive nature), has a sonar that allows it to see anything that hears its roar for hundreds of meters in the area (so even if it's blinded, it's just as lethal), superior range and reach through size and spider-like mandibles
Reaper disadvantages - Much dumber, can be distracted for a few seconds if offered food, potentially inferior stamina-wise

Gabi advantages - Equal speed, can scan for weakpoints, much smarter, potentially superior stamina, potentially has the skills to survive drowning (though his page doesn't say that) and predict the Reaper's attacks (or at least the initial one)
Gabi disadvantages - Overall weaker (Lifting Strength-wise as well), much smaller, might not be able to find those weakpoints, unfamiliar with the terrain and hindered by the water (all of his fire abilities are pretty much useless), might not be able to figure out that the Reaper can be distracted with food

 

[DaReaperMan]

Admittedly, with an AP/Durability difference that huge and with speed equalized, I don't think that's likely to happen. The only things that can visibly harm Reapers on 4546B are other Reapers (facial scars show that they fight others of their species), their immensely stronger predators (the Sea Dragons) and special late 22nd century tech like P.R.A.W.N Exosuits

P.R.A.W.N. Suits are accepted at 8-B for being the leading thing in killing Sea Dragon Leviathans so... no.

 

[azontr]

Admittedly Marg had a speed advantage and is a mercenary in her 60s, I don't think she's lacking in killing experience at all, especially since she went on to kill other Leviathan-class predators in other sections of the planet while she was stranded there.

But is she as experienced as Gabimaru is, though? He's a Shinobi trained specifically for killing and being able to adapt to kill things he's never experienced before, it's a fundamentally different profession I feel.

But he can still be killed, no? The Reaper won't just attempt to drown the prey, it's also going to attempt to stab it, eat it or use its mandibles to grab its prey and toss it into its jaws.

The phrasing there almost makes it seem like he's immortal or something xD

Also, that's training against things that could kill them, but that doesn't necessarily imply he can hold his breath indefinitely... If he can do that, his page doesn't mention that.

Killing him is indeed possible its just incredibly difficult, he has Type 2 Immortality for a reason (he can literally stop his own heart and not die). In fact, I think that in part deals with the Reaper's AP advantage, because Gabimaru isn't going to die from just a single attack given how resilient he is to injury.

I never said he can hold his breath indefinitely, that'd be self-sustenance, just that he can hold his breath for a very, very, very long time if necessary.

If he knows how to do that, he can do that. It'd be a valuable distraction since doing so in Subnautica means the Reaper leaves you alone for the next few seconds.

Not sure if he can like, analyze the Reaper and get that much info.

He wouldn't immediately figure out that it's attracted to food, but after a while of fighting he'd probably try some options to lure it away or distract it, one of which would most probably include using other things such as a separate food source to distract it. He's always trying new ways to kill.

The most relentless a Reaper gets is one mentioned in a PDA log where it attacked the Deep Grand Reef Degasi base to where another Reaper had been taken for study by Marg, either to eat that other member of its species or maybe save/avenge it. The base in particular is anywhere from half a kilometer to more than a kilometer away from where Reapers typically roam, and during that Reaper's scuffle with Margerit it was heading towards the crater edge, also known as the void, where far bigger Leviathan-class creatures roam and with a depth of more than 8 km.

The Dunes are right next to the void so this Reaper could also use that tactic, even if they normally remain within their own territory. If Gabi does enough damage to it, the Reaper could try it, leaving Gabi to face off the hordes of Ghost Leviathans in the void.

I honestly don't think relentlessness is that important to the debate, so I'll just leave it at that.

If the Reaper tries to lure Gabimaru to a deeper part of the ocean he's straight-up just not going to follow it. He's not dumb enough to not realize a tactic such as that and fall for it, he's just gonna let go of it or make as much distance as he can from the thing so he's not dragged into the void.

Admittedly, with an AP/Durability difference that huge and with speed equalized, I don't think that's likely to happen. The only things that can visibly harm Reapers on 4546B are other Reapers (facial scars show that they fight others of their species), their immensely stronger predators (the Sea Dragons) and special late 22nd century tech like P.R.A.W.N. exosuits.

I mean I never said he was going to go all anime on its ass on slice of its fins in one slice. Just that if the Reaper misses its attack (which it most likely will) Gabi's going to chip away at it and do as much damage as he can.

Gabi is smarter and might be able to scan for weakpoints, but he's going to be far less effective underwater while the Reaper is superior when it comes to strength and durability and is not hindered by the environment at all, in fact he's literally right at home

I would argue that it's not going to take a very long time for Gabimaru to become used to fighting underwater, Iwagakure Shinobi are taught to be extremely adaptable to unfavorable situations.

That instinctive/analysis/precog-esque thingy Gabi's got to see his own impending doom could work at first to dodge the Reaper (again, at a 10 m distance between the two, he's practically in the Reaper's face), but once he does that, at equalized speeds... I'm not sure he can dodge it again, I feel like for that he'd have to be way faster. If he uses the dodge to his advantage in order to hold onto the Reaper, I don't see him doing anything but get shaken off, as the Reaper is superior LS-wise.

He doesn't particularly need to be way faster, given with sheer skill he can dodge continuous attacks from people who are both far faster than the Leviathan, more nimble, and can predict where Gabimaru is going via reading the flow of his life force. The only reason he'd have trouble dodging is via the sheer SIZE of the attacks but given he's being informed that the attacks are coming several moments before they even happen means he has plenty of time to get out of the way.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

P.R.A.W.N. Suits are accepted at 8-B for being the leading thing in killing Sea Dragon Leviathans so... no.

Yeah, I counted both the exosuits and the Sea Dragons as things that can kill them canonically, or did you somehow skip the Sea Dragons in that list of things? xD

 

[Second22]

Gabimaru can stay underwater comfortably for a long time. Even when children hold him underwater, they don't know how much time has passed. And staying in the water for a long time makes the children start to feel cold.

 

[Second22]

Tbh, the difference in AP is only four times or even less than that. This calculation is based on his dura to withstand attacks from large steel ball and it does not cause him even the slightest injury. He has encountered other characters with much higher AP, such as Tensei and Rokurōta, whom he believes Rokurōta can kill him with just one attack.

However, he still manages to survive and can change the direction of the attack that much higher AP.

Therefore, the difference in AP does not make him significantly disadvantaged, as he has experience fighting against characters with much higher AP than him.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Late reply, was busy with other things and completely forgot about this thread.

If that guy can kill him with just one physical attack, that's fair enough, though by that logic, wouldn't the Reaper also be able to do that? Apparently that guy could reduce him to paste and he seemingly needed help to beat him, in this particular battle I don't think he's going to get the chance to redirect the attacks of four of the Reaper's mandibles, he might knock back one of them but the other three will still grab him. Skill doesn't mean he's going to be fast enough to do all four. Speed and skill seemed to help him against that big guy, speed isn't an advantage here and skill won't really work against something like a Reaper either.

He can hold his breath underwater for quite a while, but that doesn't equate to fighting underwater where your speed and attack power is going to be reduced due to the water, so even assuming that Gabi isn't hindered by this, Reapers fight with others of their own and only leave slightly visible scars on their bodies. If Gabi can like, redirect the attack power of a mandible or something, that's not really going to hurt the Reaper.

To me it seems like the Reaper's got more of a chance of killing Gabi than the other way around, due to the equalized speed and the considerable size and AP/Durability advantage, plus how the Reaper's right at home. The water should logically hinder Gabi's movements, being taught to be extremely adaptable to unfavorable situations doesn't mean he would be, 'cause I'm not sure they taught him to survive in the open ocean ruled by serpent dolphins twice as big as blue whales xD

With that in mind, Gabi's attacks won't be as impactful, Gabi isn't going to be given the time to analyze the Reaper to find pressure points (if he even can with such a large and alien all-muscle body), and there's nothing to indicate Gabi can take attacks THAT much stronger than it, and if anything there's proof that he can't with that big guy above.

That's still assuming he can dodge the initial assault "through skill" (he's definitely not outswimming the Reaper through skill), and at that distance of 10 m...

(for reference, the blue figure is Gabi at 150 cm, the red figure is the 10-meter distance and the purple figure is the Reaper's ~55 m, used to picture how far they are from the very beginning, which for the Reaper is not much)

Like, yeah, highly skilled individual, but what is he going to do there? He can't swim away, not underwater or even at the surface, especially with equalized speeds... Punch it in the face and do nothing? Fake death and try to appear like carcass even though the Reaper would eat him regardless? The only thing I can imagine, is him deflecting one mandible, and then getting caught by the other three, then dragged into the Reaper's mouth. He's not overpowering one of the mandibles given the massive Class 5 and Class M LS difference, and I hope I'm not getting the argument that if the Reaper does get him into its mouth, that he can force his way out... At that distance, he's not going to get the chance to analyze it, because the Reaper's savage charge won't let him (in the one instance shown about him predicting attacks, his opponent is standing still and they're having a tense conversation, with the intent to attack but with plenty of time in between).

Assuming he already knows the Reaper is there... The way I pictured it, Gabi was teleported into a Reaper's way and the fight starts from there. I could kinda see those arguments with a bigger distance between the two, but even if the Reaper darts past Gabi then turns around to get him, it's not like Gabi can swim away or far beyond the Reaper's reach. At the speed the Reaper moves at, he's going to reach Gabi in exactly 0.513084 seconds (at the very least) with 10 meters as the initial distance.

Also, what is this about reading life force? That's not in his page... Neither is him being able to hold his breath for a while, actually.

 

[azontr]

If that guy can kill him with just one physical attack, that's fair enough, though by that logic, wouldn't the Reaper also be able to do that? Apparently that guy could reduce him to paste and he seemingly needed help to beat him, in this particular battle I don't think he's going to get the chance to redirect the attacks of four of the Reaper's mandibles, he might knock back one of them but the other three will still grab him. Skill doesn't mean he's going to be fast enough to do all four. Speed and skill seemed to help him against that big guy, speed isn't an advantage here and skill won't really work against something like a Reaper either.

Why exactly wouldn't he get a chance to redirect all 4 of the mandibles, exactly? He doesn't exactly need to be fast when he has several ways to react to the mandibles BEFORE they move. Speed isn't the deciding factor here, and it never was- Gabimaru can just know it's movements before it moves and react accordingly.

He can hold his breath underwater for quite a while, but that doesn't equate to fighting underwater where your speed and attack power is going to be reduced due to the water, so even assuming that Gabi isn't hindered by this, Reapers fight with others of their own and only leave slightly visible scars on their bodies. If Gabi can like, redirect the attack power of a mandible or something, that's not really going to hurt the Reaper.

Gabimaru fighting with his speed and attack power lowered isn't something he is unfamiliar with, nor is it something he's incapable of fighting while hampered with. Fighting underwater isn't going to be an issue after the first few minutes, this battle is gonna last at least 10 days.

And how long have these "Reaper battles" lasted, exactly? Depending on that, the damage Gabimaru could do within an extended period of time exceeds anything that could happen in those battles, potentially.

To me it seems like the Reaper's got more of a chance of killing Gabi than the other way around, due to the equalized speed and the considerable size and AP/Durability advantage, plus how the Reaper's right at home. The water should logically hinder Gabi's movements, being taught to be extremely adaptable to unfavorable situations doesn't mean he would be, 'cause I'm not sure they taught him to survive in the open ocean ruled by serpent dolphins twice as big as blue whales xD

I've already gone into (several times, in fact) how the equalized speed is not a hindrance to Gabimaru, and how his ability to see the Reaper's movements in advance nullify the advantage of equalized speed.

Saying "he won't be able to" isn't exactly an argument, how exactly will he be unable to? His adaptation extends to being able to learn how to fight with no solid footing or balance, like he would be... underwater? Saying "just because he was taught to doesn't mean he can" is a non-argument because he literally can just learn how to fight underwater.

With that in mind, Gabi's attacks won't be as impactful, Gabi isn't going to be given the time to analyze the Reaper to find pressure points (if he even can with such a large and alien all-muscle body), and there's nothing to indicate Gabi can take attacks THAT much stronger than it, and if anything there's proof that he can't with that big guy above.

He doesn't need time, it's not going to take long than a few moments or minutes, not hours, to find potential weakpoints anywhere on the Reaper's body. As I noted before, he's fought creatures with physiology he is wildly unfamiliar with, including those who are literally shaped like fish.

Gabimaru isn't going to be able to tank any attacks without damage, but, he's not unfamiliar with taking severe damage. Standard severe organ damage or blood loss is something Gabimaru has shrugged of regularly, so just being "skewered" isn't going to come close to killing him.

Like, yeah, highly skilled individual, but what is he going to do there? He can't swim away, not underwater or even at the surface, especially with equalized speeds... Punch it in the face and do nothing? Fake death and try to appear like carcass even though the Reaper would eat him regardless? The only thing I can imagine, is him deflecting one mandible, and then getting caught by the other three, then dragged into the Reaper's mouth. He's not overpowering one of the mandibles given the massive Class 5 and Class M LS difference, and I hope I'm not getting the argument that if the Reaper does get him into its mouth, that he can force his way out... At that distance, he's not going to get the chance to analyze it, because the Reaper's savage charge won't let him (in the one instance shown about him predicting attacks, his opponent is standing still and they're having a tense conversation, with the intent to attack but with plenty of time in between).

"What exactly is he going to do" is that even a question? If someone with rusty metal can kill one, Gabimaru can kill one just fine with his bare hands. He doesn't NEED to swim away from the thing, because it can't reliably hit him, he can just endure whatever damage it dishes out (because any damage it can dish out is child's play compared to the hurt Gabimaru has fought through), and he has MORE than enough stamina to straight up outlast it and let it get tired.

His opponent being stationary is an irrelevant point??? His opponent being "stationary" doesn't mean he can't predict the movements of moving opponents, I don't get this argument.

Assuming he already knows the Reaper is there... The way I pictured it, Gabi was teleported into a Reaper's way and the fight starts from there. I could kinda see those arguments with a bigger distance between the two, but even if the Reaper darts past Gabi then turns around to get him, it's not like Gabi can swim away or far beyond the Reaper's reach. At the speed the Reaper moves at, he's going to reach Gabi in exactly 0.513084 seconds (at the very least) with 10 meters as the initial distance.

I'm not even gonna respond to this because it's just you repeating things you've already said, I don't even know how long I can keep repeating "Gabimaru doesn't need to be faster" before the point makes it through.

Also, what is this about reading life force?

He doesn't have that in this key, but he can fight against characters with comparable (if not superior) speed that have life-force based precognition. My point is that he is very adept at dodging things even from people with superior physical abilities and the ability to see his movements a step ahead.