Frisk revision

[LordXcano]

GER is listed as infinite for moving in an area where time was completely erased

This is the same thing

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

GER is listed as infinite for moving in an area where time was completely erased
This is the same thing

It's not, though. Infinite movement in a timeless void is not the same as being unbound by linear time and its causality. One could make the argument for Frisk being "only" infinite during the Flowey fight due to Flowey exploiting stuff like this in order to mess with them, but I doubt it still affects them once the Asriel fight rolls around, especially due to eventually resisting his influence and beginning to free the Lost SOULs.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, that's the part that gets me about Asriel. Does this mean that Frisk's powers transcend Asriel's? Even using his peak form, he couldn't permanently get rid of him, or even restrict him for long.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, that's the part that gets me about Asriel. Does this mean that Frisk's powers transcend Asriel's? Even using his peak form, he couldn't permanently get rid of him, or even restrict him for long.

Nah. He still can't even touch Asriel should he choose to attack. It's more like in this case, Asriel is the all encompassing vastness of space and Frisk is a really persistent tardigrade...or something.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, that also is bugging me. The omnipresent Asriel. Yeah, the phone thing (which I still think is Flowey, due to him being the planner, and the vines on the elevator), but if he was omnipresent thoughout time, why didn't he come sooner to take out Frisk. He did want to reset Frisk. That was his intent in the battle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Presumably because his intent wasn't just to reset Frisk. It was to keep Frisk playing the game. He didn't want Frisk to leave. If he just came and bodied them at the start of the adventure, they'd likely just give up, AND he wouldn't have had any time to "play" with them. He wanted to keep Frisk in the Underground not simply to imprison them, but because they were the only "fun" person he knew.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then why didn't he intervene at the Flowey fight, which would be just as efficient, if not more? Or more importantly, the Genocide route, which he could've done things with the actual Chara?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again (for the Flowey fight), presumably because he wanted to stretch things out as long as possible. He does remember everything across all timelines (sans True Resets), after all. The actual Asriel fight is basically the latest point he could stop Frisk, become himself, and also stretch out their "playtime" as long as possible. After all, his plan was literally to just kill them then and there, true reset, and force them to play up to that exact point over again. Willingly cutting their "fun" short is against his overall goal.

As for Chara, not sure on that one. Might have something to do with the fact that he was technically playing with Chara. Flowey and Chara are the same person, after all. He wasn't really aware Chara didn't give a shit about him until the last minute, and by then it was too late. Chara then proceeds to do what essentially amounts to a True Reset, so really, nobody but the Player would remember them (though Sans becomes perpetually suspicious, of you).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Can't argue with the first point, but for an immesurable/omnipresent being, there's no such thing as too late, and do true resets affect GoHD Asriel? I know it affects Flowey and possibly young Asriel, but I'm not sure about GoHD or AoD.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

True Resets presumably affect EVERYONE. The only reason it doesn't affect Chara is if the Player gives them their SOUL.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So, should there be a tier for the True Reset? It should be somewhere in the 2A range, and be given to Chara and the Player

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Dunno if it needs a tier. Presumably just affects things within the game.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, just noticed that you said Flowey and Chara are the same person. Do you mean Frisk?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I might have phrased something weird. I meant Flowey and Asriel are the same person.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Anyway, Asriel should be nigh-omniscient via his time omnipresent status. Why would he not know about the evils of Chara. Heck, he already does if Frisk talks to young Asriel back at the beginning (btw, it was a hassle to trek all my way back there for the dialogue)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ehhhh maybe. I mean, logically he should, but he didn't know about Chara. Though really, that might have been willful ignorance (Flowey didn't really realize Chara would betray him until he himself pointed it out).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, but Flowey is characteristically different from Asriel via experiences, with the latter also being smarter/wiser. I'm just saying if Asriel was omnipresent, he would have stopped himself from being killed by someone he knew was evil and would betray him if necessary

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

On a side note, should Flowey's and Asriel's profiles be one in the same for them being the same being?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

True, but as you said, that falls into their differences. Asriel doesn't seem to care about Flowey being killed, especially since Flowey comes back with every new timeline, anyway.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

On a side note, should Flowey's and Asriel's profiles be one in the same for them being the same being?

Probably not. Easier to separate them, along with the fact their personalities are different and Asriel is less a form of Flowey than his own person and vice-versa.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I always keep him alive, but doesn't Flowey stay dead if you decide to kill him in a neutral route until a pacifist route comes along?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I always keep him alive, but doesn't Flowey stay dead if you decide to kill him in a neutral route until a pacifist route comes along?

Nah. Once you get to Asgore, he comes back and laughs at you for thinking you could get rid of him for good, since he comes back with every new timeline, memories intact.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And yet, Flowey seems to care about being killed, even though he knew he would come back. Also, while not sure if this debunks or helps prove my point, he was happy (or at least seemed happy out of spite) that he was being killed in the neutral route.

EDIT: this was made prior to your post.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Only by Chara, since they were best friends before, and he didn't know if Chara would reset the world or just keep everything destroyed since they were a raging psychopath.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But he thought Frisk was Chara to an extent. Also, couldn't the Angel of Death form just be telekinesis that keeps Frisk in place? (that's used force the explanation of Asriel's omnipresence)

Also, more of a reason for Asriel to affect that timeline, since everything was destroyed and Asriel could've made everything come back.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"I know. You're not really Chara, are you? Chara's been gone for a long time."

He knew Chara was dead. He was just projecting his feelings for Chara onto Frisk. The only timelines in which he thought Frisk was Chara were the ones in which Frisk really was Chara.

Asriel presumably does not exist in that set of timelines (since True Resets change EVERYTHING and you cannot do a genocide route after a pacifist route without a True Reset).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So shoudn't he be nigh-omnipresent at most?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you're counting "omnipresent" as existing throughout the entirety of the game at all times, then yes, as technically he can only be omnipresent throughout all timelines. Chara is the only one who fits the first definition. And the Annoying Dog, but that's...uh...yeah.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I have 0 doubt in my mind that Chara is omnipresent. He totally fits the definintion for that.

 

[LordXcano]

It's not, though. Infinite movement in a timeless void is not the same as being unbound by linear time and its causality. One could make the argument for Frisk being "only" infinite during the Flowey fight due to Flowey exploiting stuff like this in order to mess with them, but I doubt it still affects them once the Asriel fight rolls around, especially due to eventually resisting his influence and beginning to free the Lost SOULs.

Okay but being unbound by linear time just means he can time travel as well. So it's infinite speed + time travel greater than everyone else's. It still isn't immeasurable.

If I show up in 1712 and 2097 at the same "time" my speed isn't immeasurable, nor is it even infinite. It just means I can be in 2 places at once. Unless you have proof that Asriel was literally everywhere and not just several places at the same time then it's still just infinite + time travel.

Plus even if he is omnipresent, that effect can be achieved by, again, a lot of time travel. That doesn't mean that the speed is always omnipresent all the time, especilly in a VS. Battle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Okay but being unbound by linear time just means he can time travel as well. So it's infinite speed + time travel greater than everyone else's. It still isn't immeasurable.

If I show up in 1712 and 2097 at the same "time" my speed isn't immeasurable, nor is it even infinite. It just means I can be in 2 places at once. Unless you have proof that Asriel was literally everywhere and not just several places at the same time then it's still just infinite + time travel.

Plus even if he is omnipresent, that effect can be achieved by, again, a lot of time travel. That doesn't mean that the speed is always omnipresent all the time, especilly in a VS. Battle.

Actually, being completely unbound and unaffected by linear time (and moving through a higher level of time) is exactly what immeasurable is. Once you are completely transcendent above basic 4-D time, you're immeasurable.

As for the Asriel thing, you have to remember that omnipresence, while listed as a speed, isn't always a character's sole speed, if that makes sense. Asriel transcends basic 4-D time, and has (nigh)omnipresence from being able to be wherever he wants whenever he wants, because lower-dimensional time no longer applies to him. This does not mean he is omnipresent to things that are on the exact same level of existence as he is, though. Same with a lot of omnipresent characters who possess a similar type of omnipresence.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then there should be some more clarification on omnipresence. Because I see his omnipresence on the same level being a determining factor in battles.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Then there should be some more clarification on omnipresence. Because I see his omnipresence on the same level being a determining factor in battles.

Omnipresence should almost never be a determining factor in battles unless it can be explained as to why and not just "it's the higher speed".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

After the mess with SB Janemba, I'm starting to get tired of omnipresence...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

After the mess with SB Janemba, I'm starting to get tired of omnipresence...

But he wins via speed and hax, tho

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I got a genuine laugh out of that. Speed and hax ftw

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

We seem to have gotten a bit off topic. As I stated before moving in erased space-time isn't immeasurable. It sounds like they still exist on that same plane of existence.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Moving in erased space-time isn't immeasurable. Making your own space-time continuums and swapping them in and out to mess with the opponent while you yourself are unaffected by the change in basic time should be.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Oh, yes that does sound right.