Frisk OP pls nerf

[Ichwillpopcorn]

Where can I begin with this page? Seriously, tell me where.

Let´s begin with the tier. Let´s just read the definition of 2-B: Multiverse level

Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to 10^500 universal space-time continuums. 10^500 is the scientifically theorized number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums within our own multiverse.

Frisk never did that, that was Chara.

And then there is the Attack Potency. Asgore isn´t mountain level, or at least not in the battle, since Asgore not only was holding back, but Frisk also reduced his DEF into Oblivion. Keep in mind, monsters bodies are mostly made up of magic and their SOUL, so their DEF is influenced by their will to hurt and their opponents will to hurt. Asgore even has DEF, so no mountain level. And really? Multiverse Level? He was only able to do productive damage when the souls reduced Floweys DEF to literally zero. And Flowey wasn´t even able to destroy a barrier created by puny little humans, so he probably isn´t Multiverse Level.

And his speed. Massivly Hypersonic?! He wasn´t even able to outspeed a fish - on land! And the lightining bolts are actually magic attacks, since, you know, can attack Frisks soul. And if they were actuall lighting bolts, either the game would be in massive slow mo or you wouldn´t even be able to react to them since actuall lightning moves faster than the human eyes can process. And Asriel didn´t destroy the universe, he explicitly said that not only wanted he to reset the timeline, not destroy it, but also that he didn´t have full access due to Frisk being alive.

And then the durability. Frisk fell into golden flowers, it´s the first thing you see after entering your name. And mountain level? Wat? Like I said, Asgore was holding back, and Frisk reduced his ATK even further. And Asriel also holding back, because, you know, he wanted to play with Frisk, he even purposely used an incredibly weak attack from Toriel since he only wanted to toy with the player, since he´s "so alone". And the SRL-ability and the soul refusing isn´t durability but rather Regenerationn.

And the range. While the melee range is correct, where do you get "Multi-Universal" from? Frisks only means of attack are the melee weapons. (Not counting acting and sparing) Frisk can´t summon some kind of Determination-ray.

And the equipment. Did you really forget about the Real knife?

(I´m being cynic on purpose, so don´t take my tone of voice too seriously)

 

[ThemoonprinceN]

1. calm down bro XD

2. Actually no. Asriel did destory the universe but not only that he destoyed multiple time lines within said universe that what makes Frisk mutliversal plus that and they could actully hurt Photoshop Flowey (while not much) they were still able to damnge him as he was, plus even if actual lightning was used it doesn't matter because frisk can process things faster than the human eye can usually see and with Asgore he wasn't really holding back he gave it all he got for which we have no proof he was holding back,

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Asriel did use hyper goner, so he is at least tier 2, because resetting the timeline is as good as destroying it. Anyway, he's scaled from Chara and Flowey, though I have issues on all three's tiering.

Asgore is scaling from Tsunderplane and Undyne I believe.

The range I'm pretty sure is from saving and loading.

The bolts came from clouds. Though I'm unsure how a volcano creates lightning, but lol fiction. Back on point, that FTE logic would make Sonic, Goku, etc. a heck of a lot slower.

Hurting Flowey slightly is what makes Frisk 2-B instead of 2-A.

I can't account for anything else though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

... Booooy, is this going to get ugly.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Volcanoes can create lightning via something something ash cloud dust and pressure, but the likelihood of it being magic lightning... is there. So I'm actually agreeing on that. For the rest... Well very debatabale but I'll be rooting for you Mister I trap little girls in my room monster.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I legitimately can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcasm or not, but I guess I'll answer, anyway.

1. Frisk's 2-B is from scaling and hurting (albeit minimally) Omega Flowey, who by his own admission, is more powerful than Chara after hijacking Frisk's SOUL. Damaging Flowey minimally is still damaging Flowey. Also, Flowey straight busts Frisk's save in front of them, which is literally an entire timeline. As proven by literally every single instance of the world being destroyed in the game, the barrier itself still exists, since it was created by seven of the most powerful humans to ever live, which is why it takes a monster with the power of seven SOULs to actually get rid of it. Asriel even EXPLICITLY has to destroy the barrier after he's used Hyper Goner but before he restores everything, meaning yeah, it was still there.

2. Both Frisk and Asgore were severely holding back in their fight. Asgore didn't want to kill Frisk, but Frisk also didn't want to kill Asgore. Doesn't change the fact that even when holding back, Asgore is stupidly more powerful than characters like Undyne, who is already stupidly more powerful than the character who got the city level feat, in the first place.

3. Magic in Undertale manifests as a physical thing. Papyrus' bones are magic. They're still there. Undyne's spears are magic. They're still there. Monsters themselves are literally magic made manifest. They're still there. The whole "Frisk never actually dodged attacks" thing is a hilariously baseless argument used by downplayers and would assume a battle consists of Frisk and a monster staring at each other while nothing happens for several minutes.

4. Asriel very explicitly destroys the timeline. All of his talk of controlling the timeline comes before he uses Hyper Goner, and as demonstrated by Chara, Omega Flowey, and God damn Asriel himself literally five minutes later, characters of this level are easily able to recreate the world after it has been destroyed, so he really would have no reason to give a shit about any sort of collateral damage while trying to erase Frisk.

5. Try falling several thousand feet (at minimum) down a hole and landing on the ground, your only cushioning being a bed of flowers. I guarantee you that you'll be a puddle of blood and broken bone as opposed to perfectly fine. Hell, even Chara was fine when they first fell through the mountain and hit solid ground. They were hurt, but were able to actually walk once Asriel helped them up. As for the Asgore thing, remember that part where both parties were holding back and even restrained Asgore is vastly superior to Undyne?

6. Asriel explicitly stops playing around after using Hyper Goner, so that argument is disproven by even paying marginal attention to the fight.

7. Frisk's range is multi-universal via high enough Determination. It's not like regular Frisk has this range. Remember the fight with Flowey when he literally forces Frisk to dodge him through multiple timelines/savestates?

8. Frisk never uses the Real Knife. The only way to get the Real Knife is by entering New Home at the end of the Genocide Route, by which point Chara is totally in control.

Since a lot of this seems like sarcasm, I'm reeeeaaaallly hoping it is, since many of the arguments used are pretty fallacious.

 

[Ichwillpopcorn]

I legitimately can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcasm or not, but I guess I'll answer, anyway.

When did he say that? The only thing coming close to this was claiming that he is "the god of this world", which is wrong as he needed one more to become one.
Damaging Flowey minimally is still damaging Flowey.
I can throw an egg which is part of the universe on the ground, minimally damaging the universe. Damaging the universe minimally is still damaging the universe.
Also, Flowey straight busts Frisk's save in front of them, which is literally an entire timeline.
Then why didn´t Asriel have total control over the timeline? And if one save = one timeline, then why would Flowey savestate and thus restore the universe if he wanted to destroy it? And he said that he will kill all humans and monsters, implying they still were alive.
As proven by literally every single instance of the world being destroyed in the game, the barrier itself still exists,
How do you know? I don´t remember anybody saying that ingame.
since it was created by seven of the most powerful humans to ever live, which is why it takes a monster with the power of seven SOULs to actually get rid of it. Asriel even EXPLICITLY
When did he ever say that?
has to destroy the barrier after he's used Hyper Goner but before he restores everything, meaning yeah, it was still there. 2. Both Frisk and Asgore were severely holding back in their fight. Asgore didn't want to kill Frisk, but Frisk also didn't want to kill Asgore.
Frisk isn´t a monster so his defence isn´t affected. Also, Frisk had the option to defeat but not kill Asgore, while Asgore never considers that.
Doesn't change the fact that even when holding back, Asgore is stupidly more powerful than characters like Undyne,
He was stupidly more powerful that her when she was a child. After she trained with him, she could defeat him.
who is already stupidly more powerful than the character who got the city level feat, in the first place. 3. Magic in Undertale manifests as a physical thing. Papyrus' bones are magic. They're still there. Undyne's spears are magic. They're still there. Monsters themselves are literally magic made manifest. They're still there. The whole "Frisk never actually dodged attacks"
Wait, what?! I don´t think that you understood me, of course Frisks dodges attacks. I just ment that Frisk isn´t hypersonic, since otherwise his walking animation would be immensly fast.
thing is a hilariously baseless argument used by downplayers and would assume a battle consists of Frisk and a monster staring at each other while nothing happens for several minutes. 4. Asriel very explicitly destroys the timeline.
Since he also said that he had to kill Frisk first, and that the Hyper Goner was targeting Frisk, it´s pretty obvious that he ment that he would kill Frisk in order to reset the timeline.
All of his talk of controlling the timeline comes before he uses Hyper Goner, and as demonstrated by Chara, Omega Flowey, and God damn Asriel himself literally five minutes later, characters of this level are easily able to recreate the world after it has been destroyed, so he really would have no reason to give a shit about any sort of collateral damage
What are you trying to prove? I never said that he did.
while trying to erase Frisk. 5. Try falling several thousand feet (at minimum) down a hole and landing on the ground, your only cushioning being a bed of flowers.
That are magic.
I guarantee you that you'll be a puddle of blood and broken bone as opposed to perfectly fine. Hell, even Chara was fine when they first fell through the mountain and hit solid ground. They were hurt, but were able to actually walk once Asriel helped them up. As for the Asgore thing, remember that part where both parties were holding back and even restrained Asgore is vastly superior to Undyne? 6. Asriel explicitly stops playing around after using Hyper Goner, so that argument is disproven by even paying marginal attention to the fight.
Then how could Hyper Goner destroy the timeline?
7. Frisk's range is multi-universal via high enough Determination. It's not like regular Frisk has this range. Remember the fight with Flowey when he literally forces Frisk to dodge him through multiple timelines/savestates?
Uhm, range means attack range. 8. Frisk never uses the Real Knife. The only way to get the Real Knife is by entering New Home at the end of the Genocide Route, by which point Chara is totally in control.</div>You still can control Frisk until the Asgore fight.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

1. He explicitly says it during the genocide route. Immediately after the ruins.

2. That's...not even close to the same thing. Like, at all. You could throw a trillion eggs at the universe and not accomplish anything. Meanwhile, when Frisk hits Flowey, each hit does actually visible damage, despite it being minimal.

3. Because Frisk is quite obviously a lot more determined during the Asriel fight than the Flowey fight. Also, I've already mentioned this, but Flowey (or rather the SOULs that powered him), Chara, and Asriel all demonstrate that beings of their level can pretty easily bring the world back whenever they so desire.

4. Again, it's actually SHOWN in the ending. Even after Asriel purges the timeline, he STILL needs to use his power to destroy the barrier.

5. It's literally in the opening of the game. Rewatch the opening scene in which the monsters are sealed.

6. Uh, what? Yes it is. Determination very much affects your defense, unless you think Frisk always has multiversal durability. Also, Frisk HAS to kill Asgore if they want to ever leave the Underground and return home.

7. No, Asgore is still stupidly more powerful than Undyne. The most she ever does to him is manage to knock him down in a friendly spar (which he's very proud of her for), and even then, Asgore wasn't even fighting back. He was just training Undyne. This dialogue is pretty clear from what she tells you.

8. Saying Frisk isn't fast (even though in this case, it's about reactions) because their sprite moves slow in game is the same as saying Sonic isn't ftl because you can't clear Green Hill Zone in under a second.

9. The very last thing Asriel says before using Hyper Goner (as in, literally a second earlier) is that he's going to purge the timeline to try and kill Frisk. This couldn't be spelled out any clearer.

10. You said Asriel didn't destroy the universe because he wanted to reset it. I explained why that is very, very wrong.

11. ...What? There is absolutely nothing magic about the flowers Frisk falls into. They're flowers. Not every single thing in the Underground is made of magic.

12. What do you mean by "how could Hyper Goner destroy the timeline"? He erases it. It's pretty cut and dry.

13. If you can instantly move across multiple timelines to fight your foe, that carries over to the range of your attacks...obviously.

14. There is no Asgore fight in the Genocide Route, which as I've said, is the only time the Real Knife is acquired.

 

[Ichwillpopcorn]

1. He explicitly says it during the genocide route. Immediately after the ruins. Oh, but at that part Chara wasn´t god powered yet.
2. That's...not even close to the same thing. Like, at all. You could throw a trillion eggs at the universe and not accomplish anything. Meanwhile, when Frisk hits Flowey, each hit does actually visible damage, despite it being minimal.

I don´t thing that you understood me. Breaking an infinitesimal part of the universe, like an egg, is the equivalance to harming a universal cosmic being infinitesimally.
3. Because Frisk is quite obviously a lot more determined during the Asriel fight than the Flowey fight. Also, I've already mentioned this, but Flowey (or rather the SOULs that powered him), Chara, and Asriel all demonstrate that beings of their level can pretty easily bring the world back whenever they so desire.
Again, you misunderstood me. My point was that he said that humans and monsters were still alive.
4. Again, it's actually SHOWN in the ending. Even after Asriel purges the timeline, he STILL needs to use his power to destroy the barrier.
Since the barrier is part of the universe, shouldn´t this be evidence enough that Asriel did not destroy the universe?
5. It's literally in the opening of the game. Rewatch the opening scene in which the monsters are sealed.

I misplaced the quote. What I ment is that at no point in the fight the barrier is seen, but considering that the universe wasn´t destroyed, it´s redundant.
6. Uh, what? Yes it is. Determination very much affects your defense, unless you think Frisk always has multiversal durability.

</div>No, Frisks defence always stays at the same level except when leveling up.
Also, Frisk HAS to kill Asgore if they want to ever leave the Underground and return home.
Considering that Frisk left the Underground without Asgores soul, he doesn´t have to. But that may just be a plothole.

7. No, Asgore is still stupidly more powerful than Undyne. The most she ever does to him is manage to knock him down in a friendly spar (which he's very proud of her for), and even then, Asgore wasn't even fighting back. He was just training Undyne. This dialogue is pretty clear from what she tells you.

8. Saying Frisk isn't fast (even though in this case, it's about reactions) because their sprite moves slow in game is the same as saying Sonic isn't ftl because you can't clear Green Hill Zone in under a second.
My point is that since Frisk can´t run fast, he can´t be fast. Also, Sonics speed was explicically stated by the devs while Frisks speed is only fan speculation, so you can´t really compore those.
9. The very last thing Asriel says before using Hyper Goner (as in, literally a second earlier) is that he's going to purge the timeline to try and kill Frisk.
Ok, how often can I have to say this? "After I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... I just want to reset everything." Emphasis on after.
This couldn't be spelled out any clearer.
10. You said Asriel didn't destroy the universe because he wanted to reset it. I explained why that is very, very wrong.

11. ...What? There is absolutely nothing magic about the flowers Frisk falls into. They're flowers. Not every single thing in the Underground is made of magic.
So storing a monsters dust, essentially rendering them a monster afterlife isn´t magic?
12. What do you mean by "how could Hyper Goner destroy the timeline"? He erases it. It's pretty cut and dry.
Ok, I´m really getting tired of this. "AFTER I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... I just want to reset everything."
Also, how could a goat skull trying to suck Frisk in destroy the timeline? Are those projectiles somehow the entire universe? And Asriel said that he only was getting serious after that attack.

13. If you can instantly move across multiple timelines to fight your foe, that carries over to the range of your attacks...obviously.</div>Ehm, no. Flowey was transporting himself and Frisk, not Frisk himself.After I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... I just want to reset everything.

14. There is no Asgore fight in the Genocide Route, which as I've said, is the only time the Real Knife is acquired.</div>I ment the part where you kill him. And the real knife is aquired before the Sans fight, where you still have free control over Frisk.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. It doesn't matter. Flowey's opinion on this never changes throughout the entire run, and the only thing that worries him is when he realizes Chara is willing to off him before he gets the SOULs.

2.I understood you very clearly, and I explained why it's blatantly wrong. Frisk isn't doing infinitely low damage to Flowey. The damage, while low, is fully visible. The same can not even come close to being said about throwing something at anything in the universe.

3. Again, I understood you, and I'm saying why it's wrong. Nothing points to them still being alive in the blank void Flowey left behind, and since it's demonstrated he would have no trouble bringing them back, there is literally no reason he couldn't kill them as many times as he wanted.

4. That's not how this works. At all. Throughout the entire game, it's mentioned that only the power of seven human SOULs can break the barrier. Asriel had to use the full power of the SOULs to destroy it, since while messing around, despite destroying the universe, it was still there. Every single thing in the dialogue and events points to this, not "Asriel didn't destroy the timeline".

5. Jfc, Asriel explicitly purges the timeline during the fight. You can't argue that he didn't with the logic of "he just didn't". Plus, even though the barrier isn't seen during the fight, it IS seen immediately afterwards when Asriel breaks it, but BEFORE everything has been restored.

6. By this logic, all characters are multiversal. All of them. Froggit, Napstablook, etc. Frisk's power very clearly changes based on how Determined they are.

7&8. That is, by far, one of the worst arguments I've ever seen. Actually having feats and dodging something are incredibly different than "fan speculation".

9. Oh my God. Gain control =/= ability to destroy. Asriel cannot fully reset everything because Frisk is still there. He even destroys the timeline in an attempt to get rid of Frisk so that he can then proceed to reset it, but that fails.

10&11. What are you talking about? Those flowers didn't store any dust. The flower Alphys used to make Flowey was specifically the one which sprouted up from where he died.

12. I just addressed this in #9. Also, you cannot seriously be arguing that Asriel didn't destroy the timeline because Hyper Goner doesn't look like it destroyed the timeline.

13. By this logic, Frisk does not even have the range to actually touch Flowey in that fight, which is completely untrue.

14. You don't kill Asgore in the genocide route. Chara kills Asgore. You don't get to input any actions. Also, you aren't in true control of Frisk by the time you reach New Home. Chara hints at this, and this is officially the point of no return without resetting the game.

I'm seriously considering closing this, since if any of these points are actual arguments for a legitimate downgrade, they are highly fallacious, and rely heavily on the logic of "because I said so".

 

[Ichwillpopcorn]

1. It doesn't matter. Flowey's opinion on this never changes throughout the entire run, and the only thing that worries him is when he realizes Chara is willing to off him before he gets the SOULs.

Yes, it can. I highen the universals entrophy essentially damaging it since once max entropy is reached, the universe gets destroyed.
3. Again, I understood you, and I'm saying why it's wrong. Nothing points to them still being alive in the blank void Flowey
You know, the blank void that is in every battle ever? </div> left behind,</div>He said that he will kill them after taking Frisks soul.
and since it's demonstrated he would have no trouble bringing them back, there is literally no reason he couldn't kill them as many times as he wanted.
Then why would he want to take Frisks soul before killing them?
4. That's not how this works. At all. Throughout the entire game, it's mentioned that only the power of seven human SOULs can break the barrier.
You know, exactly the amount of soul power Asriel has?
Asriel had to use the full power of the SOULs to destroy it, since while messing around, despite destroying the universe, it was still there. Every single thing in the dialogue and events points to this, not "Asriel didn't destroy the timeline". 5. Jfc, Asriel explicitly purges the timeline during the fight. You can't argue that he didn't with the logic of "he just didn't".
I brought up the quote multiple times, so just saying "its just ur opinion so ur wrong" doesn´t work.
Plus, even though the barrier isn't seen during the fight, it IS seen immediately afterwards when Asriel breaks it, but BEFORE everything has been restored.
He said that he will restore his friends. The universe isn´t really a friend of frisk.
6. By this logic, all characters are multiversal. All of them. Froggit, Napstablook, etc.
Care to explain?
Frisk's power very clearly changes based on how Determined they are. 7&8. That is, by far, one of the worst arguments I've ever seen. Actually having feats and dodging something are incredibly different than "fan speculation".
Which feats actually show Frisk being that fast? The thunderbolts that somehow were slower that many other monster attacks?
9. Oh my God. Gain control =/= ability to destroy.
Finally you explain it. But why could Frisks determination stop Asriel resetting, but not destroying the timeline, when the game clearly implies that resetting requires less power than destroying, as both normal Flowey and Frisk could reset but not destroy the timeline.
Asriel cannot fully reset everything because Frisk is still there. He even destroys the timeline in an attempt to get rid of Frisk so that he can then proceed to reset it, but that fails. 10&11. What are you talking about? Those flowers didn't store any dust. The flower Alphys used to make Flowey was specifically the one which sprouted up from where he died.
The first flower stored the dust without digesting it. Since boss monster souls get destroyed after the monsters die, the only part left from Asriel was his dust.
12. I just addressed this in #9. Also, you cannot seriously be arguing that Asriel didn't destroy the timeline because Hyper Goner doesn't look like it destroyed the timeline.
My point was, if Asriel specifically was targeting the timeline, why is the attack targeting Frisk?
13. By this logic, Frisk does not even have the range to actually touch Flowey in that fight, which is completely untrue.
Why? Because Flowey covers the entire screen?
14. You don't kill Asgore in the genocide route. Chara kills Asgore. You don't get to input any actions. Also, you aren't in true control of Frisk by the time you reach New Home.
Sadly you are, nobody fights that sans fight for you.
Chara hints at this,
Chara quite literally is the feeling of levelling up, he is pretty much the temptation of doing a genocide.
and this is officially the point of no return without resetting the game.
No. The kings throne room is, which is after the sans fight and after the real knife.
I'm seriously considering closing this, since if any of these points are actual arguments for a legitimate downgrade, they are highly fallacious, and rely heavily on the logic of "because I said so".

At least I used an unequivocal quote from the game. Meanwhile claiming that purging unequivocally means destroying is a big assumption.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

1&2. No, it can't. The damage you do is not noticeable. Throw eggs at the universe for a trillion years. You won't achieve the same effect as Frisk striking Omega Flowey and causing visible damage to his health bar, as well as Flowey to make a pained noise. This argument is ludicrous.

3. The blank void is typically the battle screen. It is not something Frisk walks around in. However, before the Omega Flowey fight, entering the game causes Frisk to walk around in a black void.

4. Yes, which is why only Asriel breaks the barrier, despite other, weaker characters being capable of destroying the rest of the world.

5. No, you brought up a quote in which Asriel basically says he's about to destroy the timeline, and then you say Asriel meant something else. That's not how this works.

6. You are stating that Frisk's defense does not change without levelling up. Pacifist Frisk, the one who takes hits from Asriel, never levels up. By this logic, all enemies, including even the weakest mooks, have power on par with Asriel.

7. Something moving faster than lightning does not mean the lightning is slow. It means the thing moving faster than lightning is faster than lightning.

9. Destroying the timeline is purely power based. Resetting the timeline is based on having the highest amount of Determination. If Frisk's Determination rivalled Asriel's at that moment, which it did, it would prevent either of them from saving, reloading, or resetting, which is demonstrated throughout the battle.

10&11. Yes, the first flower stored his dust. Not every other flower, as well.

12. Asriel's attack isn't targeting Frisk. As you can see from its animation, it affects everything. Destroying the timeline would hurt Frisk since, at that moment, Frisk is in the timeline.

13. Because Flowey would just perpetually be out of range if Frisk's full Determination mode was limited to melee range. Heck, even when they manage to hit fight, their attack simply appears on Flowey, hitting him from a distance.

14. From a gameplay standpoint, yeah, he's there to act as a tough boss. From a lore standpoint, Chara is the one fighting Sans.

15. Yes, which is why Chara is the one in control, which they mention should you refuse to comply.

16. No, right before the Sans fight is the point of no return without resetting. At that point, it is impossible to leave the genocide route without resetting the game. Your last chance is during the Core.

17. Claiming a word that means to erradicate or remove something does not mean that in context because the intention isn't clear is not a solid argument.

 

[Ichwillpopcorn]

1&2. No, it can't. The damage you do is not noticeable. Throw eggs at the universe for a trillion years. You won't achieve the same effect as Frisk striking Omega Flowey and causing visible damage to his health bar, as well as Flowey to make a pained noise. This argument is ludicrous.Destroying eggs also makes noise and causes a visable effect. And I can cause pain to a shark, that doesn´t that I´m a shark wrestler.
3. The blank void is typically the battle screen. It is not something Frisk walks around in. However, before the Omega Flowey fight, entering the game causes Frisk to walk around in a black void.
If you mean that black room, it has walls so it can´t be nothingness.
4. Yes, which is why only Asriel breaks the barrier, despite other, weaker characters being capable of destroying the rest of the world.

5. No, you brought up a quote in which Asriel basically says he's about to destroy the timeline, and then you say Asriel meant something else.
What "something else" did I say he ment? Please explain.
That's not how this works. 6. You are stating that Frisk's defense does not change without levelling up. Pacifist Frisk, the one who takes hits from Asriel, never levels up. By this logic, all enemies, including even the weakest mooks, have power on par with Asriel.
Actually monsters like Froggit have lower ATT than Asriel, if you don´t switch armor Asriel makes more damage.
7. Something moving faster than lightning does not mean the lightning is slow. It means the thing moving faster than lightning is faster than lightning.
I ment that the "lightning" is actually a magic attack and not actual electricity. Mettaton uses actual electricity, since he is a robot, and guess what? It´s too fast for Frisk to dodge it. And I said that it would be illogical to have lightning that is slower than energy spears.
9. Destroying the timeline is purely power based.
Citation needed.
Resetting the timeline is based on having the highest amount of Determination. If Frisk's Determination rivalled Asriel's at that moment, which it did, it would prevent either of them from saving, reloading, or resetting, which is demonstrated throughout the battle.
10&11. Yes, the first flower stored his dust. Not every other flower, as well.

12. Asriel's attack isn't targeting Frisk.
Then why is the skull laughing at Frisk?
As you can see from its animation, it affects everything.
How so? Does it turn the timeline into spheres and then suck them up?
Destroying the timeline would hurt Frisk since, at that moment, Frisk is in the timeline.
Then why doesn´t Frisk take damage when he dodges all projectiles?
13. Because Flowey would just perpetually be out of range if Frisk's full Determination mode was limited to melee range. Heck, even when they manage to hit fight, their attack simply appears on Flowey, hitting him from a distance.

14. From a gameplay standpoint, yeah, he's there to act as a tough boss. From a lore standpoint, Chara is the one fighting Sans.
Then why do my inputs control Frisk?
15. Yes, which is why Chara is the one in control, which they mention should you refuse to comply.
He only is in control if you don´t withstand the temptation to trigger the genocide ending.
16. No, right before the Sans fight is the point of no return without resetting. At that point, it is impossible to leave the genocide route without resetting the game. Your last chance is during the Core.
Ah, now I see what you ment by that.
17. Claiming a word that means to erradicate or remove something does not mean that in context because the intention isn't clear is not a solid argument.

verb (used with object), purged, purging.

1. to rid of whatever is impure or undesirable; cleanse; purify. 2. to rid, clear, or free (usually followed by of or from): to purge a political party of disloyal members. 3. to clear of imputed guilt or ritual uncleanliness. 4. to clear away or wipe out legally (an offense, accusation, etc.) by atonement or other suitable action. 5. to remove by cleansing or purifying (often followed by away, off, or out). 6. to clear or empty (the bowels) by causing evacuation. 7. to cause evacuation of the bowels of (a person).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1&2. A shark is much different than the universe. It also proves you and the shark are on the same plane of existence. Same as striking Flowey and getting an actual reaction.

3. I don't see any walls, in there. I only see the text box containing Frisk's save (which should normally not exist as a visible object), which Flowey then proceeds to destroy.

4&5. You said multiple times that he wasn't talking about destroying the timeline.

6. Having lower attack doesn't matter if it's not more than one degree of infinity lower. And since Asriel's attack is "infinite" while everyone else has actual numbers, it would mean that even things like Froggit would be universe busters for being infinitely less than Asriel. That is of course assuming Frisk's defense didn't change, but I am explaining why it did.

7. Mettaton's electrical attacks are only unavoidable in the quiz. During the actual fight, Frisk is perfectly capable of dodging them. I've also explained multiple times on multiple threads why the "it's magic" approach doesn't invalidate attack speeds or power.

9. I don't see why you need a citation on this. He blows up the timeline with an attack. He doesn't use any Determination based abilities. He just directly attacks it.

12. ...Because Frisk is in the fight? I'm not even sure what you're asking for, here.

14. Notice how I said gameplay =/= lore.

15. Untrue. That's kind of the whole point of their speech, at the end. You're thinking about it too literally.

17. Yes. Several of those are pretty in line with what I said he meant.

 

[ThemoonprinceN]

okay I think this thread is going a bit long just for one little complaint for a character -.-

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

With all due respect, @Ichwillpopcorn, but I believe that Azathoth has made his arguments quite clear multiple times.

At this point this thread is going nowhere.

 

[Ichwillpopcorn]

With all due respect, @Ichwillpopcorn, but I believe that Azathoth has made his arguments quite clear multiple times.

At this point this thread is going nowhere.

OK, I don´t think anyone of us is going to change their minds over this. I give up.