Frank West VS The Boss (Saints Row) 2.0 (Grace Period)

[Bruhtelho]

Base Frank West and Saints Row 3 The Boss are used

Both have full arsenal except Franks Ice Weapons

Fight takes place outside the Saints Row Church

Speed is equalized

Both start 10 meters apart

Fight ends in Death, K.O, or Incap

"I've covered wars, you know.":7 (Jackythejack, Peppersalt43, Reploidnoridomix, FantaRin_The_First, Cimafranca133, RandomGuy2345, Bruhtelho)

"let's get this shit started.":1 (rawXDglomp)

Inconclusive:0

 

[Bruhtelho]

AP for Both

Frank West is 3 MJ

The Boss is 1 MJ

 

[Jackythejack]

I'm actually like, super interested in this now because both of them are pretty comparable and have absolutely bonkers weaponry.

Both have fought the US military and people who are above the US military (whoever the guys were in DR4 and also STAG). I'd say when it comes to sheer versatility Frank takes it with ease, but with expereince they're both fairy similar I'd say.

It's surprisingly tricky.

 

[Peppersalt43]

I'm actually like, super interested in this now because both of them are pretty comparable and have absolutely bonkers weaponry.

Both have fought the US military and people who are above the US military (whoever the guys were in DR4 and also STAG). I'd say when it comes to sheer versatility Frank takes it with ease, but with expereince they're both fairy similar I'd say.

It's surprisingly tricky.

So... would incon work?

 

[Jackythejack]

Incon could, potentially, work.

However I will say that when it comes to hax, the boss is outmatched. The Boss only has mind manipulation while Frank has gun based matter hax, transmutation, and freezing hax that would immediately oneshot the boss if it hits. Since they start ten meters apart we don't have to worry about a sniping battle, and most of Franks haxes should be able to hit.

They both also resist guns and stuff so the main thing that would kill The Boss is hax. Ultimately when it comes to who can secure the killing blow the fastest I think that Frank would, given his wider arsenal of things that would kill very quickly, while The Boss only has one real wincon and that's the squid gun.

 

[Peppersalt43]

They both also resist guns and stuff so the main thing that would kill The Boss is hax. Ultimately when it comes to who can secure the killing blow the fastest I think that Frank would, given his wider arsenal of things that would kill very quickly, while The Boss only has one real wincon and that's the squid gun.

Ah, OK then

Changing my vote to Frank

 

[Jackythejack]

Oh I just realized ice weapons are restricted lol.

Still doesn't change my vote tbh

 

[Bruhtelho]

thats 2-0-0

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

yeah frank arsenal is better than the boss in anyway,frank fra

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[rawXDglomp]

Boss only having 1 wincon and Frank having a dozen doesn't really matter. What matters is if they can hit with their respective win con. Squid gun should easily be able to instantly hit from the start. If it does, he just wins.
Speed is equal (and even if it wasn't they have the same speed with guns) so the only real thing that seems to matter here is projectile speed. Instant v... what? What are franks instant win weapons, how do they compare?
The only video I can find that shows someone rapid firing the mollusk (its a DLC wep so I've never used it) is of a woman in a thong so I don't think its SFW enough to post. But Boss can fire it 2-3 times a second going off that vid.
What about Frank? How fast can he try again if he fails? Is his stuff aoe? Instant?

 

[Jackythejack]

Certain grenades are AoE or just certain combo weapons that Frank has.

His Holey Terror, matter manipulation, is particularly fast, same with his toy wand which turns you into christmas ornaments, or his laser cutter gun. Or his electric stuff.

The main issue is that out of all the weapons The Boss has, I don't think they'd use their gun first, especially given how The Boss acts which is a general love for chaos and destruction.

 

[rawXDglomp]

I mean if its based on how they act on cutscenes and such, Frank doesn't use any of his combo weapons except maybe the knife gloves in any, does he? He's much slower to attack than the boss is in general.

 

[Jackythejack]

Frank in general doesn't fight in cutscenes. Never has. We have nothing to go off of with how he opens a fight. I wouldn't say he's slower to attack though considering he'll kill looters and military personnel and those paramilitary guys in DR 4. He'll also attack immediately if he has to defend himself, which is basically what this is.

The boss is violent, crass, and likes action and loud noises and explosion. The mind manipulation doesn't fit them.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Its a weapon he has, just like Franks. And he has more precedent in the story for shooting in general.

So voting boss as is. He wins instantly with what seems to be a hitscan weapon in 1 shot v a guy who's unlikely to fight back at all. Both of them have a massive arsenal they're more likely to use than the instant kill weapons and saying boss won't use his while Frank (who you yourself say 'never has' fought in a cutscene ever) will use those out of his arsenal is just absurd bias.

 

[Jackythejack]

Saying that Frank is unlikely to fight back at all is a gross missunderstanding of his character. You can't say he doesn't fight at all just because he doesn't figh tin cutscenes when the entire game series is a hack and slash about zombies and criminals and psychopaths and the military

 

[Tybaltcapulet]

It's not just a gross misunderstanding of Frank, but a clear misunderstanding of Jacky's argument when they discussed cutscenes.

It's very clear that they were only talking about how It's difficult to tell exactly how Frank opens up a fight. There's absolutely no reason to extend this to supporting the idea of "Frank doesn't fight back because cutscenes"

And again, the cutscene argument on the whole is silly because as Jacky has stated, Frank's game is a hack and slash . Which is in a universe that requires him to act in ways completely contrary to your assertions. And given how many violent psychopaths he's fought and killed, I don't think one can make the claim that he simply won't fight back.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Saying that Frank is unlikely to fight back at all is a gross missunderstanding of his character. You can't say he doesn't fight at all just because he doesn't figh tin cutscenes when the entire game series is a hack and slash about zombies and criminals and psychopaths and the military

And saying boss won't use the one gun out of his arsenal just because he tends to grab uzi's off corpses in the games is a gross misunderstanding of his character.
And you said he doesn't fight in cutscenes

Frank in general doesn't fight in cutscenes. Never has.

Right here.
You said in general. Then 'never'. Apparently you meant the first one.
Meanwhile boss always does.
So you have a character who immediately shoots who has a gun that can instantly win and a character who generally doesn't and has some weapons that may or may not instantly win still haven't actually said how his stuff compares to the boss's (instant v 'particularly fast'. What does that even mean?).
So as I said, Boss wins as is. He's opening his lottery box earlier and can pull a 1 shot while Frank's wasting time talking and the like.

And again, the cutscene argument on the whole is silly

It is, which is why my argument was 'how do Frank's instakills compare to a 3 per second hitscan weapon'. And then he brought up this argument that they'll one guy won't use said weapon because he uses other guns in cutscenes, while the guy who's not even prone to fighting in cutscenes will instantly use his the moment the fight starts because ???

 

[Jackythejack]

I don't think the boss would use it! Okay? It's DLC exclusive and it doesn't fit the bosses general MO because of their love of widescale violence and destruction. The mind manipulation gun doesn't fit. Frank is a practical man and very much does what he can to survive. Every situation he's in he sees as life or death while the boss has fun with killing and violence. They don't want it to be over in an instant and that's been shown because of how much fun the boss has while blowing shit up.

Frank is stronger, more durable, has better lifting strength, arguably smarter, and has way higher stamina, and a lot more instant kill weapons that could end the fight immediately.

 

[rawXDglomp]

And I don't think Frank would fight back at all by that logic, since his consistent go-to in scenes is to hide behind stuff, talk, do anything except fight.

As I said, number of 1 shots does not matter. Quality does. Are you going to actually say how his compare? Instant 3 shots per second v... what?

 

[Jackythejack]

what do you mean how they compare???

His matter hax shoots like an actual gun. It's a gun. You shoot it a lot. it shoots.

That's how most of his stuff works. They're guns. They shoot.

Saying Frank wouldn't fight back against someone trying to kill him is, again, a gross misunderstanding of his character. Especially in a vs thread where his main thing is he has to fight. Frank always fights, though. Even when things seem hopeless he fought against Brock. He fights Fantana in the fourth game without concern. He fights super soldier Calder.

Hell he fights Carlito like, constantly. Where are you getting the idea that he doesn't fight.

 

[rawXDglomp]

"It shoots" is completely meaningless. I'm not too sure why you think talking that vaguely is how debating works.
Going off that video he is shooting slower, his projectiles have a travel time and a very minor AoE.
Boss's gun shoots faster, has no travel time and no AoE.
They're only fighting 1 person. The AoE doesn't matter. So Boss's gun is just plainly massively superior. So Boss wins.

Hell he fights Carlito like, constantly. Where are you getting the idea that he doesn't fight.

Again, you.
You said this.
Are you half asleep or something? I'm not going to quote your own post yet again, but you said Boss is always aggro in cutscenes. So you made how they act in cutscenes matter. Frank is often not aggresive in cutscenes, much more than he's aggresive in them. So by YOUR logic, Frank is less likely to attack here.
If we go by gameplay alone then Boss instantly round start kills him with a hitscan gun he can't realisitcally dodge whole Frank's projectile is completely trivial to dodge.

I really don't understand the way you are debating this. If you're going to be as vague as 'he shoots like a gun', why even bother debating at all? This is a site about concrete numbers, feats and the like, not 'he shoots a gun like a gun'.

Hell actually I will, again, quote your own post

Frank in general doesn't fight in cutscenes. Never has

This is you saying Frank doesn't fight in cutscenes.
After you made how cutscenes portray them matter.
This is you saying Frank is less likely to shoot first.
Frank who has the inferior gun.

 

[Jackythejack]

Okay so clearly you're taking one point in my argument and blowing it massively out of proportion, and then you're resorting to chucking petty insults at me and questioning why I'm partaking in a hobby. Really good stuff. Let's dismantle this.

The cutscene argument is over because clearly the purpose of it wasn't made obvious to you. The argument was made to basically say we don't know what Frank opens with. Not that Frank wouldn't fight at all in combat. I was trying to use it to say we can't pin down a weapon that he starts with, so we have to extrapolate what he would use based off personality and the weapons that he has at hand. That was what I wanted it to do. Because Frank is a pretty tactical guy and generally views every situation as life or death given his experience, he would likely use the weapons that would instantly kill someone if they were to make contact. This was the point I was trying to make all along but you've been massively blowing my point out of proportion to the point where the original meaning was lost.

The Boss, however, does use weapons in cutscenes. Most of the time they use conventional firearms, such as pistols or rocket launchers, or if you're Killbane The Boss will literally just punch you to death. My point to make with The Boss is that we know, generally, what they could start out with, and that's conventional firearms. Not the mind hax gun that is exclusive to a DLC and is never mentioned against, and the fact that it doesn't fit the Boss's M.O.

And what I'm using to determine that it doesn't fit The Boss' M.O. is that I am not using cutscenes but I'm using my knowledge of the game and how The Boss is as a character. Because I know both game series incredibly well, and I like to think I have a basic understanding of both character, to the point where I can generally determine how their basic personality is. I've been playing Dead Rising and SR3 for years. SR3 is one of my favorite games, Frank West is one of my favorite characters. I know how they work.

The boss is violent and aggressive and sadistic. This isn't just from cutscenes. This is from basic dialogue the boss says in the game. The boss loves getting into fights. It's like, a key part of their character that they're a little ****** up and like killing people. They like massive explosions. They like gunfights. They like violence. This is just a central tenant of the character of The Boss. This is the reason why I think they will not be using the gun that is not flashy, not violent, not loud, and not something they've ever planned on using ever outside of DLC, which at that point it's a decision of the player and not the boss' character. Saying that the boss would use this weapon that is way out of their M.O. and go for the boring one hit kill weapon when they love fighting and violence and action is absurd. As well as just a misunderstanding of the Boss as a character, as it's ignoring all the dialogue that The Boss says regardless of the voice pack they get in the game. The boss is in character so we have to consider what they do in character.

Frank is different. Frank doesn't like for aggression and violence and chaos. He's a man trying to survive the zombie apocalypse, and this involves him fighting army generals, world terrorists, every psychopath that comes his way, and some mutated zombies. He literally does fight and there was no point in my entire argument where I said Frank doesn't fight at all. I just said he doesn't fight in cutscenes (which even now is a gross generalization which I have proved wrong with some videos I linked, of which you just completely ignored to continue to harp on me about this point that you're blowing out of proportion), which was to prove a completely different point than "Frank doesn't fight".

Frank is crafty and uses everything at his disposal to try and win a fight. This is shown by his constant use of combo weapons (which he wouldn't be afraid to use) and combo vehicles. He will literally use whatever's best to fight because he's fighting for his life and doesn't take any real enjoyment out of it, unlike the Boss who at times seems to approach combat like an action movie hero, cracking jokes and not taking everything seriously. I think out of both of them, Frank would be the one to pull out the instakill weapon faster because of how he views combat and because of his tendency to create and use combo weapons in order to get himself out of nasty situations.

Barely any of this analysis was determined through cutscenes so maybe you can drop that point now and consider putting some thought into how the characters themselves interact and how they would likely use their weapons. After all, we're arguing characters as a whole and not just "concrete numbers, feats and the like"

 

[rawXDglomp]

we can't pin down a weapon that he starts with, so we have to extrapolate what he would use based off personality and the weapons that he has at hand.

Based off his personality in the games? He uses nothing and tries to hide or talk his way out of it until he can't. While being shot. By a hitscan 1 hit kill weapon.
Why did you even bring up the cutscene thing if you're just going to use it in such a biased way? "Cutscene argument is over because I want to apply it to the boss and not Frank".
No.

The Boss, however, does use weapons in cutscenes. Most of the time they use conventional firearms, such as pistols or rocket launchers, or if you're Killbane The Boss will literally just punch you to death. My point to make with The Boss is that we know, generally, what they could start out with, and that's conventional firearms.

I thought the cutscene argument was over?

Frank is crafty and uses everything at his disposal to try and win a fight. This is shown by his constant use of combo weapons (which he wouldn't be afraid to use) and combo vehicle

Both gameplay.
I can say boss consistently uses rocket launchers if I simply choose to use those.
You can beat DR2 without using a single combo weapon if you want.

Barely any of this analysis was determined through cutscenes so maybe you can drop that point now and consider putting some thought into how the characters themselves interact and how they would likely use their weapons. After all, we're arguing characters as a whole and not just "concrete numbers, feats and the like"

You mean like I did in post 1 before you brought up the cutscene thing? Why are you trying to blame me for what you started lol?
As I said, Boss's instakill gun is objectively superior to the one you showed to the point Frank is completely outclassed, its hitscan and 3 shots per second v a very slow projectile that's not even shooting once a second.
So Boss wins.

Oh also that gun you showed it so absurdly slow for something that 'fires like a gun' Boss at 0 stamina can literally walk out of the way.
And thinking on it you said that gun in particular is 'particularly fast' (which now means something since you added a video, as we can see his 'particularly fast' weapo is incredibly slow). Assuming you saying that means its speed is = or > that of his other similar weapons, he's not hitting the boss with his instakills.

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

you guy just vote already this will just go around and don't have an end,just let everybody see who should they vote

 

[Jackythejack]

The cutscene argument is over because you clearly can't understand the point I'm trying to make here.

I voted for Frank. Leave me alone if you're going to completely misrepresent my arguments

 

[rawXDglomp]

you guy just vote already this will just go around and don't have an end,just let everybody see who should they vote

?
I said Boss wins like 5 posts ago. Hitscan 1 shot gun > incredibly slow projectile.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I think I'll vote for Frank from what Jacky said. IMO, what they said for their arguments for Frank's win is solid to me.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump