Fixing Verses Part 1: Attack on titan

[ShadowSythez]

So I've noticed several incorrect or questionable calculations on this wiki. I've taken it upon myself to rectify these calculations, except for those involving scaling beyond star level. I want to start this off with Attack on titan though !

Levi sees rocks in slow motion
This is the first calculation I noticed was wrong. The reasoning as to why is because the calculation assumes that the rock the beast titan threw stayed at a constant velocity of 343 m/s. This would be wrong either way but the calc also goes on too assume that the every single little rock that came from the big rock stayed at a velocity the same as the speed at which the beast titan threw the big rock. This is wrong and the anime proves this by showing some rocks moving ahead of others and some rocks moving slower then others. This feat is un calculatable and it shouldn't be up for debate. unless you can find the speed of the individual rock which is impossible. This feat should be scrapped as a whole.

Eren intercepts a cannon ball
This calculation is inflated. The creator of the calculation overestimates the muzzle velocity of a cannonball at 481 m/s, while the actual range is 100-250 m/s. This results in inflated numbers that are not accurate.

Levi dodges bullets
Similarly this calculation is also inflated. First of all I went onto the Attack on Titan wiki and found out that these guns are single-barreled shotguns which have speeds of 365 m/s which is a pretty safe estimate especially due to the fact that AOT was set a long time ago. The new calculation would = 0.0129602739726027 5.6524 / 0.0129602739726027 = 436 m/s (Supersonic)

Now as for AP feats... There is way too many for me to do at this given moment. I do want to ask though if there are any verses that you think have incorrect calculations, please send them to me so I can know !!

 

[Excellence616]

Okay, so what are you proposing?

 

[Metalballrun]

This may need the attention of calc group members and other relevant staff, especially those who are familiar with IRL weapons stats we have.

 

[ShadowSythez]

Okay, so what are you proposing?

I am currently proposing for the "Levi sees rocks in slow motion" calc to be completely removed since it is un calculable. I am also proposing for the Eren cannon ball feat and the Levi gun feat to be changed under a new blog post.

This may need the attention of calc group members and other relevant staff, especially those who are familiar with IRL weapons stats we have.

I will message the CGM'S who accepted the calculations

 

[DMUA]

Levi sees rocks in slow motion

Yeah I hate this one too, kill it with fire

This calculation is inflated. The creator of the calculation overestimates the muzzle velocity of a cannonball at 481 m/s, while the actual range is 100-250 m/s. This results in inflated numbers that are not accurate.

Admittedly that specific velocity out of the overall range is strange but the minimum is more 381

Similarly this calculation is also inflated. First of all I went onto the Attack on Titan wiki and found out that these guns are single-barreled shotguns which have speeds of 365 m/s which is a pretty safe estimate especially due to the fact that AOT was set a long time ago. The new calculation would = 0.0129602739726027 5.6524 / 0.0129602739726027 = 436 m/s (Supersonic)

Does the wiki have a source for that? I definitely don't remember it firing buckshot, and Slugs are pretty much indistinguishable from a normal musket round or the likes

 

[ShadowSythez]

Yeah I hate this one too, kill it with fire

Admittedly that specific velocity out of the overall range is strange but the minimum is more 381


Does the wiki have a source for that? I definitely don't remember it firing buckshot, and Slugs are pretty much indistinguishable from a normal musket round or the likes

Admittedly that specific velocity out of the overall range is strange but the minimum is more 381

I wouldn't mind the use of 381 m/s. Although I do feel like the fact AOT was set so long ago makes me want to favour the use of 250 m/s

Does the wiki have a source for that? I definitely don't remember it firing buckshot, and Slugs are pretty much indistinguishable from a normal musket round or the likes

Not to sure. If you have a source for it being musket shots I wouldn't disagree but here is the official text from the wiki:

The Anti-Personnel Control Squad's specialized anti-personnel vertical maneuvering equipment is the first to incorporate firearms with vertical maneuvering equipment. This variant has the appearance of a short, single-barreled shotgun that fires a single shell that is powerful enough to blow off a person's face entirely. Two of these shotguns can be used at the same time.[4] The shotguns are reloaded in a manner similar to signal flares the wielders throwing away the barrels and replacing them with new ones which are stored on bandoliers worn over the wielder's thighs.[citation needed]

Although it is technically not a weapon, the hook can be used as a ranged weapon in an emergency situation because the hook is located in the user's hands, which makes it very easy to aim.[5] Despite the power of these firearms, the shots can be deflected with the ultrahard steel of the standard vertical equipment's sword.[6] Also, their penetrating power is somewhat limited, as Levi was able to block a volley of shots fired at him by using the corpse of a member of the Military Police's Anti-Personnel Control Squad.[7]

 

[DMUA]

I wouldn't mind the use of 381 m/s. Although I do feel like the fact AOT was set so long ago makes me want to favour the use of 250 m/s

Well, you should probably get a source for that, because it seems like a very specific value to be anything but arbitrary (and the source I pulled out is still in fact for a cannonball specifically, not any real modern invention that would inherently be discounted)

This variant has the appearance of

And that would be the kicker. They're just stating what it physically resembles, not what it actually is as conveyed in a guidebook

 

[ShadowSythez]

Well, you should probably get a source for that, because it seems like a very specific value to be anything but arbitrary (and the source I pulled out is still in fact for a cannonball specifically, not any real modern invention that would inherently be discounted)

And that would be the kicker. They're just stating what it physically resembles, not what it actually is as conveyed in a guidebook

Well, you should probably get a source for that, because it seems like a very specific value to be anything but arbitrary (and the source I pulled out is still in fact for a cannonball specifically, not any real modern invention that would inherently be discounted)

Not sure if this sites is to trusted but here

And that would be the kicker. They're just stating what it physically resembles, not what it actually is as conveyed in a guidebook

Hmm. Makes sense although I still disagree on using a musket as the speed of them. The guns seem to be most similar to flintlocks which have a speed of 304 m/s. Would you agree or do you believe muskets are more accurate ?

 

[DMUA]

Not sure if this sites is to trusted but here

This seems to be more in relation to the cannon going off course and bouncing for a further distance than intended, more than the proper muzzle velocity

Edit: a closer look and it's definitely that

I guess this shouldn't really be called the "launch speed" since this is the speed after the cannonball hit something. Oh well.

Hmm. Makes sense although I still disagree on using a musket as the speed of them. The guns seem to be most similar to flintlocks which have a speed of 304 m/s. Would you agree or do you believe muskets are more accurate ?

Yeah a Flintlock is way closer to what seems to be in practice

 

[ShadowSythez]

This seems to be more in relation to the cannon going off course and bouncing for a further distance than intended, more than the proper muzzle velocity

Edit: a closer look and it's definitely that


Yeah a Flintlock is way closer to what seems to be in practice

Edit: a closer look and it's definitely that

I guess the best thing is to go with 381 m/s as oppose to 481 m/s which I honestly now think was a mistype by the original creator.

Yeah a Flintlock is way closer to what seems to be in practice

Sounds good !

I'll wait for therefir to join the thread since they accepted the Levi calculation but it seems like its most likely getting removed.

 

[ShadowSythez]

bump

 

[DarkGrath]

The feat of Levi seeing rocks move in slow motion seems fine to remove. The fact that it was assumed velocity remained constant for the big rock + was equal for the smaller rocks seems like it was an attempt at simplifying the calculation to manageable variables; this isn't inherently a bad thing, and is sometimes wholly necessary. But in this case, it takes it too far, and would clearly produce a result drastically different to the real value. I am curious if there is some reasonable method by which a decent estimate for this feat could be produced, but unless a clear suggestion is provided for this, the short-term solution would just be to discard the feat for scaling.

The other two feats are contentious. The muzzle velocity of a cannonball and the speed of a single-barreled shotgun pellet will naturally vary, and would depend on the model of the cannon and the shotgun; for feat calculations, we'd have to use and justify some kind of standard for these as an estimate. The OP provides two claims about standard values for these variables, but I don't see why we'd take these claims over the claims used in the original calcs. Evidently, different sources provide different information - what we need to determine is the reliability of the sources, and their appropriateness/applicability in the context of the feat. We need to discuss this in further detail to figure out what to do with these feats.

 

[ShadowSythez]

The feat of Levi seeing rocks move in slow motion seems fine to remove. The fact that it was assumed velocity remained constant for the big rock + was equal for the smaller rocks seems like it was an attempt at simplifying the calculation to manageable variables; this isn't inherently a bad thing, and is sometimes wholly necessary. But in this case, it takes it too far, and would clearly produce a result drastically different to the real value. I am curious if there is some reasonable method by which a decent estimate for this feat could be produced, but unless a clear suggestion is provided for this, the short-term solution would just be to discard the feat for scaling.

The other two feats are contentious. The muzzle velocity of a cannonball and the speed of a single-barreled shotgun pellet will naturally vary, and would depend on the model of the cannon and the shotgun; for feat calculations, we'd have to use and justify some kind of standard for these as an estimate. The OP provides two claims about standard values for these variables, but I don't see why we'd take these claims over the claims used in the original calcs. Evidently, different sources provide different information - what we need to determine is the reliability of the sources, and their appropriateness/applicability in the context of the feat. We need to discuss this in further detail to figure out what to do with these feats.

Thank you for coming to the thread !!

So I've come to a conclusion with DMUA that the cannonball muzzle velocity is 381 m/s, it seems the original calculation might have mis typed this and mistaken the '3' with a '4'. As for the Levi bullet calculation the creator assumes that the guns used are muskets, me and DMUA came to the conclusion that they were actually flintlocks which makes much more sense since muskets are usually a lot bigger and need to be held with two hands.

 

[DarkGrath]

Thank you for coming to the thread !!

No problem. c:

So I've come to a conclusion with DMUA that the cannonball muzzle velocity is 381 m/s, it seems the original calculation might have mis typed this and mistaken the '3' with a '4'. As for the Levi bullet calculation the creator assumes that the guns used are muskets, me and DMUA came to the conclusion that they were actually flintlocks which makes much more sense since muskets are usually a lot bigger and need to be held with two hands.

If the cannonball muzzle velocity was a simple mistype, then that should be perfectly fine to fix.

Looking at the Levi bullet calc, I do agree that the guns in the pictures don't look like muskets. I'm unfortunately not qualified to say much regarding what kind of gun it is - I neither know much about guns in general, nor do I know any supporting in-verse context that could help establish what guns would be comparable. At least on the surface, though, they do look like flintlock pistols, so I'd be alright with passing this as the standard in lieu of any more solid evidence for anything else.

 

[ShadowSythez]

No problem. c:

If the cannonball muzzle velocity was a simple mistype, then that should be perfectly fine to fix.

Looking at the Levi bullet calc, I do agree that the guns in the pictures don't look like muskets. I'm unfortunately not qualified to say much regarding what kind of gun it is - I neither know much about guns in general, nor do I know any supporting in-verse context that could help establish what guns would be comparable. At least on the surface, though, they do look like flintlock pistols, so I'd be alright with passing this as the standard in lieu of any more solid evidence for anything else.

Great. How do I go about this now? I recently saw a thread where people just removed the calculations from the homepage and changed the profiles so would that work or should I change the pages calculation numbers? I would rather not have to go through the hassle of making a blog post but I would be fine with it if it is really needed.

 

[DarkGrath]

Great. How do I go about this now? I recently saw a thread where people just removed the calculations from the homepage and changed the profiles so would that work or should I change the pages calculation numbers? I would rather not have to go through the hassle of making a blog post but I would be fine with it if it is really needed.

First, you should get one more staff member to look over this thread. If one more staff member can look over this and approve it, it should be good to apply.

If you intend to use recalculations for these feats on the profiles, you had ought to make a blog post for them. That way, the recalculations can be approved formally by a calc group member, and they should then be appropriate to apply to the profiles. Once you've done that, you can remove the current calcs from the verse page and replace them with your blog post.

 

[ShadowSythez]

First, you should get one more staff member to look over this thread. If one more staff member can look over this and approve it, it should be good to apply.

If you intend to use recalculations for these feats on the profiles, you had ought to make a blog post for them. That way, the recalculations can be approved formally by a calc group member, and they should then be appropriate to apply to the profiles. Once you've done that, you can remove the current calcs from the verse page and replace them with your blog post.

Thanks. Do you know of any staff members who are likely to reply ? I don't really know since I'm still new to the wiki.

 

[DarkGrath]

Thanks. Do you know of any staff members who are likely to reply ? I don't really know since I'm still new to the wiki.

You can find a list of all currently online staff members on the sidebar of the main page, at "vsbattles.com". Feel free to contact staff available there for assistance.

Ideally, you should contact staff members listed as "Thread/Content Moderators", "Administrators", or "Bureaucrats" for a thread like this, but the assistance of staff listed as "Calculation Group" for a thread like this would also be of help.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DarkGrath seems reasonable.

 

[Manhattanth06]

What speed of cannonballs should use, 250m/s or 381m/s Now I have prepared some calculations.

 

[ShadowSythez]

What speed of cannonballs should use, 250m/s or 381m/s Now I have prepared some calculations.

Hi. 381 m/s for the cannonball feat and 304 m/s for the Levi gun dodge feat.

 

[Manhattanth06]

Calc Results1700.65567272m/s
The results are greater than before. Because I reworked the pixel scaling.

 

[ShadowSythez]

Calc Results1700.65567272m/s
The results are greater than before. Because I reworked the pixel scaling.

I don't really know how you managed to get higher numbers. I don't really know about using pythagoras for a feat like this but sure it seems fine. Any how I looked back at the calculations comment section and saw a comment detailing things wrong with the calculation:

The cannonball is actually slower than sound. Armin specifically states he heard the cannon being fired before the impact, meaning the sound reached them before the ball did.

Eren's hand is already in his mouth the first time we see him after it's been fired. The only actions that take place after the cannon is fired are him biting down on the hand already in his mouth and then his titan transformation.

We don't know where the ball was when the transformation was completed, we only have a panel depicting the transformation as already finished when the ball is close. We're missing several panels or examples to determine these aspects.

If your able to elaborate on these 'debunks' I would be fine with the hypersonic end.

 

[Manhattanth06]

The cannonball is actually slower than sound. Armin specifically states he heard the cannon being fired before the impact, meaning the sound reached them before the ball did.

If the speed of the cannonball is slower than the actual sound I'm ok to change my speed from 381m/s to 250m/s

 

[ShadowSythez]

If the speed of the cannonball is slower than the actual sound I'm ok to change my speed from 381m/s to 250m/s

Waiting for feedback from CGM on what to do.

If the speed of the cannonball is slower than the actual sound I'm ok to change my speed from 381m/s to 250m/s

The source stating cannonballs move at speeds of 250 m/s is an incorrect source for its muzzle velocity. I really don't know where to find the speed of a cannon ball other then the site DMUA sent. This seems to go against the feats context though so I'm starting to think the feat is becoming a lot more unreliable. Of course though if DMUA agrees with 381 m/s I guess I would be fine with it ? Anyway the other points I sent still stand

 

[Manhattanth06]

Okay, we should wait for feedback from CGM.

 

[Therefir]

381 m/s should be fine for the cannon feat.

 

[ShadowSythez]

381 m/s should be fine for the cannon feat.

Hey. Could you provide a debunk for the debates I enlisted. I want to make sure the feats are accurate so no problems rise in the future.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The thread involves 2/3 of the calcs being mine and no one ever decided to tag me. Lemme read through this rq.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The cannonball is actually slower than sound. Armin specifically states he heard the cannon being fired before the impact, meaning the sound reached them before the ball did.

Even if he uses the 250 m/s end (slower than sound) the results are still supersonic+

Eren's hand is already in his mouth the first time we see him after it's been fired. The only actions that take place after the cannon is fired are him biting down on the hand already in his mouth and then his titan transformation.
We don't know where the ball was when the transformation was completed, we only have a panel depicting the transformation as already finished when the ball is close. We're missing several panels or examples to determine these aspects.

That's what angular sizing is for. If anything this makes things easier because we have the distance the ball travelled before and after Eren transformed, finding the full distance. The new calc is fine. It's barely different from my calc presented in the OP.

As for the rocks, the speed of them "varying" doesn’t matter in this scenario because the first set of rocks (AKA the rocks Levi noticed) would be the fastest moving rocks. I don't mind changing the calc a bit, which includes removing the MHS section, but to remove it entirely is a waste of resources.

 

[Nierre]

is this worth bumping