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Technically it's, Jerga< Guardian Beasts< Guardian Gods< Other Gods< Nosgalia< Fundamental Law Gods< God's of Creation & Destruction< Chief Gods
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First LN profile Upgrade for MGK
- Thread starter EldemadeDityjon
- Start date
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 14,967
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Forgot about 4 Gods of Juri yeah.
Yeah was able to point this out Anos removed Aberneyu from the world. It's clear cut fate manipulation even bigger shit than that. Gods are order themselves and bound to order.
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Except their powers come from Order which makes their abilities a manipulation of that.
For thefate stuff Gods literally determine fate
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Also, the copious amount of BS that is being done here is unprecedented. No one is even arguing with evidence, just semantics and headcanon.
It's either you find evidence that supports your claim, for or against, or just back off. Not bringing stuff that doesn't matter based off "your interpretation". There is absolutely no reason your interpretation should be considered correct despite all evidence to the contrary. This applies to both sides.
As with the last thread, can't really say how active I'll be. I'm kinda busy with IRL stuffs.
In regard to what I said above. @EldemadeDityjon seriously, try hunting for scans to support your claim. It doesn't help your case when you argue interpretation vs interpretation.
About the Gods abilities. All of their powers relating to their Order are CM, Law & Fate. No amount of arguing is changing that thus resisting Eugo's time stop is resisting applied Conceptual, Law & Fate Manipulation.
This is their literal existence. You'd need to drive a hard bargain for why their powers aren't these things. God's are bound to Order. All their actions are determined by Order and they cannot go against Order. Not to mention Nosgalia using any of his powers literally says "obey Order"
It's either you find evidence that supports your claim, for or against, or just back off. Not bringing stuff that doesn't matter based off "your interpretation". There is absolutely no reason your interpretation should be considered correct despite all evidence to the contrary. This applies to both sides.
As with the last thread, can't really say how active I'll be. I'm kinda busy with IRL stuffs.
In regard to what I said above. @EldemadeDityjon seriously, try hunting for scans to support your claim. It doesn't help your case when you argue interpretation vs interpretation.
About the Gods abilities. All of their powers relating to their Order are CM, Law & Fate. No amount of arguing is changing that thus resisting Eugo's time stop is resisting applied Conceptual, Law & Fate Manipulation.
This is their literal existence. You'd need to drive a hard bargain for why their powers aren't these things. God's are bound to Order. All their actions are determined by Order and they cannot go against Order. Not to mention Nosgalia using any of his powers literally says "obey Order"
EldemadeDityjon
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Oh Thanks. I will link this to OP.
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This video excellently encapsulates my reaction to just about every comment on a Type 1 CM thread.
Jokes aside, I'm not too decisive on this thread thus far - it doesn't help that a lot of the arguments presented thus far are shaky and interpretive. In regards to Orders being regarded as Type 1 concepts, I'd like more evidence for the generalisability of Jerga's case. To quote the Conceptual Manipulation page:
"1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept."
Jerga's case involves being a concept which, as the scans indicate, is:
- Abstract in nature ("hatred of demons");
- Independent of the tangible examples of the concept;
- Shapes all examples of the concept;
- and is unaffected by changes to the tangible examples of the concept.
Jerga being the "hatred of demons" surely qualifies as a Type 1 Concept. If it were a Type 2 Concept, then the scan implying that destroying everyone who hates demons won't destroy Jerga would make no sense. Ergo, Jerga is a Type 1 Concept.
The point of contention is whether this applies more generally to Orders. Even with the provided scans in mind, it's not clear whether all Orders work the same way Jerga does. Rather than just focusing on Jerga's case, could more elaboration be given on the general nature of Orders?
As for the Resistance to Time Stop matter, I think more context on how exactly the Time Stop power works would be warranted. The way it's been described sounds as though the world is stopped in time due to the laws governing time itself being altered to make it stop - being able to move around in such a world anyway would probably qualify for Resistance to Law Manipulation, but it's not clear whether this is how the Time Stop actually works or if this is just an inference.
As for Resistance to Fate Manipulation, I'm not even sure what the argument is trying to say. Several people in this thread have put forward different arguments and interpretations, and all of them are rather weak. A quote like "Demons are 'destined' to die" is broad - "destined" is not necessarily being used in the purely literal sense in that quote, because the whole point of the quote is saying "people will always hate demons, so they'll continue fighting and killing them". It doesn't need to be literal "destiny" for this quote to make sense - it's just a reasonable assumption that it would continue to happen. Furthermore, the quotes that are clearly literal like "The fate determined by the Gods is absolute" are just lacking in relevancy - even if this quote is 100% true and literal, how does this mean that someone gets Resistance to Fate Manipulation by walking in a time-stopped world? I've re-read all the sources suggesting Resistance to Fate Manipulation a couple of times, and none of them are particularly convincing.
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The main point would be the scan where it implies that it was Nosgalia, the heaven father God who gave the power to jerga to become a magic "second only to the order of the gods" indicates that Nosgalia was the one who gave him that power, but limited because Nosgalia creates gods according to what is necessary for his order so conditions had to be made and one of them was that jerga was a lesser order or as the scan says "second only to the order of the gods" because the world didn't need more gods.
So if we assume that Jerga is type 1 then we assume that Nosgalia is a weaker order than Jerga by being Type 2 which would be completely contradictory to the series as Nosgalia is the order of order and the heaven father God.
It is worth mentioning that we currently do not have the straightforward proof that proves that all orders are Fate and Cm 1 because the LN has not reached that translation.
The most obvious case would be the order of creation that existed before the creation of the universe 700 million years ago therefore it is unbound from all that it's governs and its equal the order of destruction. And here was also the order of Nosgalia that existed before the creation of the universe since it is the God that creates the other gods. But as I said, we have not yet reached that point in the translation.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 14,967
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Thanks for taking your time Dark. I will leave Clarification of Jerga to Oblivion later onwards.
Btw I guess you do agree with Anos getting Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation for time stop based on the evidence I provided is that right?
Let me move on to Law Manipulation.
You are correct. Time itself stopped because Worlds laws wouldn't get affected. Here are the scans. Anos was trying to mess with those laws and tried to change the past by Manipulating Concept of time. Hence Eugola just stopped World itself.
There are 2 things here we should take a look Anos was trying to Change the Past by altering the Laws of the World.
Hence Eugola Raviaz appeared. The moment he appeared World itself stopped so that Laws wouldn't gets affected. In otherworlds it's safe say he was using Law manipulation in the time stop.
He used time stop stop twice. First when he appeared World itself stopped inside that Anos fought him. When Eugola couldn't do anything to Anos he created a small world inside that world then stopped time for eternity applying a Condition where whatever enters the world anythings time will stopped for eternity.
The argument for time stop being fate manipulation is all living or non living things will stuck inside that Silver World for Eternity frozen in time. It's stopping the fate of those things that's how I interpret it. Additionally Eugola Raviaz himself is God who claimed gods determined fate is absolute.
Each gods uses different orders to different ways. For example Venozdonor just destroys the fate because it's the order of destruction. Where Eugola Raviaz fate manipulation is limited to Order of time.
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To further elaborate on what elde said above, Order itself are the Concepts, Laws, Fate that govern the world and Gods are the ones that maintain that Order.
Aside from basic magic available for use by everyone, God's powers utilize Order itself as seen with Nosgalia.
Basically a God's powers are a combination of Conceptual, Law & Fate Manipulation.
They utilize the concepts and laws to maintain the world and whatever change they enact is fate itself. It is the reason why Nosgalia constantly says a God's power is Absolute, tells Anos that his destruction has been predetermined by Order.
In application, Eugo la Raviaz's time stop is both Conceptual and Law based and it is Fate c itself. A fate that decrees that time and all things must stop. Hence resisting any of a God's powers counts as both resisting that application as well as resistance to Conceptual, Law and Fate Manipulation as Order is a combination of all these things.
Elde, when Eugo first appeared, he didn't stop time. The garden of the Time God is a sanctuary, a realm which is isolated from the time of the world. The reason <Tel> stopped working is because it shows the time of the World but the Time God's world is isolated from that time
EldemadeDityjon
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I may be wrong may be not. I have read this scans multiple times. If what you claiming is true then Anos wouldn't have said " Did you forget where you are right now" they were still in the same world but more like both worlds getting intercepted I guess. He easily Summons Venozdonor and Stomps him. Also second scans states World time started to move again. I don't know man it looks like time really stopped when Eugola appeared but I get your point.
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My opinions are basically the same as Grath's, especially in reference to the CM points of Jerga and Orders in general.
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Jerga became the Type 1 concept abstraction after turning himself into "magic". As you can see from my above post, it all started with that.
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So, this point here is interesting. Your line of reasoning makes some sense, but I don't think of this as an outright contradiction.
Your paragraph suggests a hierarchy of orders - I don't know the full length of what this hierarchy entails, or whether it implies levels of "strength" or something else, but the existence of this hierarchy suggests that orders can take different forms.
The contention here is that it's possible that Orders take the form of different kinds of concepts; namely, that some are Type 1 Concepts and some are Type 2 Concepts. The suggestion is that, despite Jerga being a Type 1 Concept, it's possible not all Orders are Type 1 Concepts, and that we would therefore have to take it on a case-by-case basis. You'll notice I never referred to Nosgalia in my comment - I never outright said Nosgalia is a Type 2 Concept.
Even if we say that it's impossible for a Type 2 Concept to be higher in this hierarchy than a Type 1 Concept (which, mind you, I don't believe is necessarily true with the current information), this just means Nosgalia would also be a Type 1 Concept, like Jerga. I think you see the issue now - we still haven't resolved the problem. We haven't disproven the possibility that some Orders are Type 1 Concepts and others are Type 2 Concepts.
This is why I was concerned about "generalisability". The problem I had was that, even though the case for Jerga being a Type 1 Concept was solid, we haven't established whether this can be applied to all Orders. The same thing happens here; if Jerga and Nosgalia are Type 1 Concepts, we still haven't established whether this can be applied to all Orders.
I know this probably sounds pedantic by this point, but what I'm looking for is information showing that Orders being detached from the aspect of reality they govern is universal and/or inherent. This would show, practically beyond question, that all Orders must be Type 1 Concepts. I invite anyone who can provide evidence of this sort to do so.
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Both of us may be right and wrong about something. Guess we'll just have to wait until Vol 6 where Eugo makes another appearance with the garden
EldemadeDityjon
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This should help you. For now it's the only thing I can give you as Example because of Limited gods introduced in the series so far. Order won't be get destroyed even if the Order which governs the reality gets destroyed. Order will Only disrupted but reality will gets destroyed because of not being able to maintain the order of the world. Nosgalia himself is order which governs the reality of the world. Anos destroyed him which started to lead world into Destruction. But order was not affected. Later Anos brings back the Nosgalia which make the dirupsted order to settle down as how it originally was. Also already there is a scan for Aberneyu Goddess of destruction in OP. Order Of Destruction was indeed disrupted and world was leading towards chaos but order was not destroyed even though Order of destruction removed from the world.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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None of what you just posted proves order is unbound from what it governs. Like, idk what else to say, that simply isn't in the text. The world starts falling apart, sure, but nothing implies that order will be fine once it's fully destroyed.
Also, what the **** do you mean by "order was destroyed but order wasn't destroyed"? that's simply a contradiction lol
To respond to earlier stuff, providence isn't fate. It's just shorthand for protection from god or nature, which isn't necessarily fatehax.
Also, what the **** do you mean by "order was destroyed but order wasn't destroyed"? that's simply a contradiction lol
To respond to earlier stuff, providence isn't fate. It's just shorthand for protection from god or nature, which isn't necessarily fatehax.
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Yeah, you ain't responding to anything since I've made it clear Order is fate.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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"The fate determined by gods" makes 0 mention of order, so even if gods have fatehax (which I find a little questionable), that wouldn't necessarily mean order is fatehax as well.
Also, why is Glass listed in neutral? He very clearly disagreed with the thread.
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Pretty sure he hasn't said he disagreed he is still arguing lol
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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He asked for evidence regarding type 1, but that until it's posted, order is just type 2 and the time stop resistance is, well, just time stop resistance.
Also, to be clear, I disagree with everything except order being law manipulation, and am neutral on type 1 concept stuff (although I'm leaning disagree now since the newly presented evidence seems extremely weak). So I have no idea why I'm listed as only disagreeing with time stop.
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Hah??? Even if there no mentioning order, as far as it say god then it mean power of order, there are no god that not bound by order
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Okay? That doesn't mean every ability gods use are order itself, or that order in general has those powers. That's like saying if one character who uses magic casts a spell, then every other magic user can cast that exact same spell.
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In regards to the above quotes provided by EldemadeDityjon to support Orders being Type 1 Concepts, I'm inclined to agree with Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara. I don't see how those quotes prove anything.
That being said, I ask for clear-cut evidence on the form Orders take if such evidence exists, whatever conclusion this evidence made lead to. "If such evidence exists" is key here - I recognise that it's possible the series just does not elaborate enough on the nature of Orders to say for sure whether they generally qualify for Type 1 or Type 2.
If this is the case, and we cannot prove it one way or the other (which I am still holding out hope is not the case), I would be willing to use inductive reasoning here and say that Orders are Type 1 Concepts. I don't believe anything provided thus far has proven this to be case - what we have shown is the existence of multiple Orders that could qualify for Type 1 Concepts, including those purportedly placed low on the hierarchy, with the suggestion that concepts higher on the hierarchy should be stronger than the lower Type 1 Concept embodied by Jerga. None of this proves all Orders are Type 1 Concepts, but these are a few facts that we could rationally infer a principle from. We know within reason that Orders are either Type 1 or Type 2 Concepts; we need to decide how to treat them on profiles one way or the other, creating a dilemma. Within this dilemma, there is more support for the former conclusion than the latter, and so it would be unreasonable to take the latter stance just to be conservative.
Right now, what I have said is hypothetical. I would rather we had proof, whether that proof leads us to think Orders are all Type 1 Concepts, or that only some Orders are Type 1 Concepts.
That being said, I ask for clear-cut evidence on the form Orders take if such evidence exists, whatever conclusion this evidence made lead to. "If such evidence exists" is key here - I recognise that it's possible the series just does not elaborate enough on the nature of Orders to say for sure whether they generally qualify for Type 1 or Type 2.
If this is the case, and we cannot prove it one way or the other (which I am still holding out hope is not the case), I would be willing to use inductive reasoning here and say that Orders are Type 1 Concepts. I don't believe anything provided thus far has proven this to be case - what we have shown is the existence of multiple Orders that could qualify for Type 1 Concepts, including those purportedly placed low on the hierarchy, with the suggestion that concepts higher on the hierarchy should be stronger than the lower Type 1 Concept embodied by Jerga. None of this proves all Orders are Type 1 Concepts, but these are a few facts that we could rationally infer a principle from. We know within reason that Orders are either Type 1 or Type 2 Concepts; we need to decide how to treat them on profiles one way or the other, creating a dilemma. Within this dilemma, there is more support for the former conclusion than the latter, and so it would be unreasonable to take the latter stance just to be conservative.
Right now, what I have said is hypothetical. I would rather we had proof, whether that proof leads us to think Orders are all Type 1 Concepts, or that only some Orders are Type 1 Concepts.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I mean, I don't see why we can't judge each order individually for the time being. Jerga's is type 1, and everyone else's is type 2 for now. That, or maybe just go with "type 2, possibly type 1"? I prefer the former option, in any case.
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Every ability of the gods are a power of order
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Even if that were true, why would that mean all order is inherently fate hax? The fate hax would just be one potential use of order, much like any god's ability, and wouldn't be scalable to every single instance of "order" in general being manipulated. To put it another way, it's like giving every instance of order time manipulation just because Ivis' time manipulation is based on order.
EldemadeDityjon
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The thing Is Jerga was himself merged with Order. Same goes for all gods. It's just kinda Contradicts the narrative to give Jerga who is Pseudo Order CM type 1 and Pure Orders Nosgalia and Other gods CM type 2.
You could check this page for complete explanation on how order works but LN Translation not catch up to this point. I am only giving you this for reference. We are not using this at the time.
Touhou name manipulation you literally claimed everything based on names as CM type 1 and here you can't Accept Order being CM type 1? This is one heck of an bias from you and glass who agreed with you on that thread
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Bruh... The scan literally say "the fate determined by the gods" that sentence imply a generalization not specification, in other hand the order of time is literally imply a specification so your example is wrong
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I concur that Nosgalia is probably a Type 1 Concept. I am curious about the other gods, though. If I recall, Jerga is lower on the hierarchy than the other gods, correct? If so, what does this hierarchy entail? What does it mean for a god to be higher on the hierarchy than someone/something else?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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What? Gods don't fuse their sources with order like Jerga did, they are embodiments of order (or order itself). The entire point of contention here is that what Jerga did was unique and not necessarily scalable to all other orders. Also, don't use MTL from the WN to support your point, the entire reason MG was deleted because of all the bad MTL leading to misunderstandings.
Cope.
Yes, gods determine fate. That doesn't mean every time someone manipulates order, they are manipulating fate.
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Hah??? Bruh you in this case will contradict with the verse's context it self. Gods have their power because of order, there are no ability or power of the gods that the order not have
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Do you have an actual source for this? Because saying that every single ability a god has is also possessed by order feels like a very extraordinary claim with little evidence backing it up.
And like I said before, even if order is fate hax, that wouldn't mean resisting a time stop is resistance to fate hax.
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Gods are literally are order @Tatsumi504 or @EldemadeDityjon can show that feats because i dont have feats from LN in my phone. Is can you not have something even if "you" have it?
And this not a spesific ability, is general ability. Is just like when we give every gods Concept and law, because it shape and rule the world and yeah it actually stated that. The determined of fate is come from because order is providence of the world, so that ability is a general ability for gods
And i dont even say anything about this
EldemadeDityjon
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It's a spoiler Nosgalia created Jerga in Volume 9. Yeah Jerga is below him and Creator God created Nosgalia and other orders.
For now this thread is Focused on Giving Anos Conceptual Manipulation, Law Manipulation and Power Modification and fate manipulation for removing order of destruction which is obviously scales above Nosgalia. Because Of the hierarchy of Order.
Creator and Destruction > Nosgalia > Jerga
This is not power Hierarchy but one order creating another order then another order creating another order.
CM type 1 order was created by another order that order was created by another order like this.
Destruction Order can destroy all Order. Anos gets Fate Manipulation because He removed Destiny from the reality. Which caused people who were supposed to die didn't die. Fate got mumbled up.
Btw I can for now Conceded on time stop part for CM type 2 possibly type 1 and Law Manipulation. If any others wants to argue they can argue. I am not feeling well. If I want to upgrade I will make a new thread with more information.
Here are the abilities currently I am just proposing
Anos - Law Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Power Modification , Conceptual Manipulation (CM Type 1. Removed Order of Destruction from the world and modified into his own spell. Which halted the worlds order. People who were supposed to die didn't die and fate of the world started to lead into Choas).
Venozdonor - In the scans itself has statement for destroying fate. Additionally it's has same power of Order of destruction which maintains peoples destiny.
Eyes of Destruction - Powernullfication , Law Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation ( Type 2 Possibly Type 1. Destroyed Time stop created by Eugola Raviaz which makes whatever inside his realm and whoever enters it's realm time frozen for eternity by freeing all of the Time).
Resistance - Law Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2 Possibly Type 1. Can enter and leave Silver World which Eugola Raviaz created imposes a rule whichever existed inside and whoever enters Inside gets their time Frozen for eternity)
( I will leave it Upto you if fate manipulation is applies here or not for Eugola Raviaz )
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"The Fate Determined by the Gods", "God's power is absolute", "Obey Order", "The God's have Ordained your destruction, this Order cannot be changed".
Order is fate hax. Maybe when you find out what other power God's have that isn't maintaining Order your point will have room for consideration.
Lmao, they literally can. Anyone can use any spell as long as it's not race and individual specific.
Enough of your headcanons. Not only is that completely incomprehensible, they are completely different. Eugo La Raviaz Order is Time, Nosgalia's is Order, Militia's is Creation, Avernyu's is Destruction.
What do they have in common? The concepts and laws which govern the world and determine fate
I'll try not to waste your time. Personally, you're all arguing about useless semantics that don't even matter (no offense intended).
In regards to Jerga, He's not just a lesser Order second to that of the Gods, he's merely a fragment of it
He was turned into magic by rewriting the Order of the World which made him a fragment of the worlds Order. I fail to see how a fragment will be type 1 and the greater whole will be type 2 regardless of which Order it is.
Regarding the hierarchy, honestly there's no official stated hierarchy amongst the Gods, not to say they're not ranked but the closest thing to a ranking is Anos calling Eugo la Raviaz a middle ranking God
"Keepers" refer to Guardian Gods like Eugo La Raviaz. As the name entails, they're not the main God presiding over the Order, they're just guardians to protect the main God and their Order from being disrupted. Like Eugo appearing to eradicate those that try to alter time
Below the keepers will be guardian beasts as the name implies, like the keepers but beasts instead. I Can't give you any info right now as their one and only appearance is in the Part 2 of the current volume that will be released come July.
Above the Keepers will be the main Gods. The ones who actually maintain Order. A hierarchy can then be obtained within this category based on their importance to the world, that's what it means to be higher on the hierarchy. Nosgalia for example is the Order of Order- The Order that governs Order- the God that gives birth to other Orders and Gods. If Nosgalia is destroyed, his Order will not be maintained which in turn will cause all the other Orders to become disrupted causing the worlds destruction. So it's clear that he is of higher priority than the others.
They're a few others above him but I refrain from mentioning them since that's untranslated content.
As for how Jerga factors into this, he doesn't. If you noticed, we never even called him a God because he isn't one. He merely got turned into magic- a fragment of Order- and became the concept of hatred against demons. His Order is just that, a fragment of a greater whole, an Order lesser than and second to that of the Gods but he is still undeniably a part of it.
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I don't get it. Isn't this just to give Anos CM 1?
EldemadeDityjon
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It is only for Anos currently. I don't want to drag this. Especially we don't have any others profile. So no use in arguing meaninglessly. Just concentrate on what's important for Anos profile currently.
YoPercy
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@Fixxed I can say the same for you since you love to take a lot of shit out of context and ignore how the page is explained. If you’re going to convince me that it’s a type 1 concept then give the ******* evidence.
@EldemadeDityjon Yeah I’m still not seeing much beyond the typical timestop here.
@Tatsumi504 Yeah nothing in that single scan remotely proves that Gods all have fate hax via order. Way to go on taking a vague statement and reaching so far with that. Also saying that people are coping a lot via headcanon isn’t going to help you convince anyone to take your side in a discussion, just saying.
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless ehh, I can kinda see type 1 but not fully. The whole point of it being a magic holy bubble doesn’t exactly tell me much about Jerga being second class to whatever Order exists, plus with the above scans I’m still unsure about giving every single Order out there type 1.
@EldemadeDityjon Yeah I’m still not seeing much beyond the typical timestop here.
@Tatsumi504 Yeah nothing in that single scan remotely proves that Gods all have fate hax via order. Way to go on taking a vague statement and reaching so far with that. Also saying that people are coping a lot via headcanon isn’t going to help you convince anyone to take your side in a discussion, just saying.
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless ehh, I can kinda see type 1 but not fully. The whole point of it being a magic holy bubble doesn’t exactly tell me much about Jerga being second class to whatever Order exists, plus with the above scans I’m still unsure about giving every single Order out there type 1.
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