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Technically it's, Jerga< Guardian Beasts< Guardian Gods< Other Gods< Nosgalia< Fundamental Law Gods< God's of Creation & Destruction< Chief Gods
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Forgot about 4 Gods of Juri yeah.Technically it's, Jerga< Guardian Beasts< Guardian Gods< Other Gods< Nosgalia< Fundamental Law Gods< God's of Creation & Destruction< Chief Gods
Yeah was able to point this out Anos removed Aberneyu from the world. It's clear cut fate manipulation even bigger shit than that. Gods are order themselves and bound to order.Providence???
And even if it not enough for you, it have the most stainforward proof for the fate
In here is literally say
"as long as jerga remain, demon are DESTINED to die"
And also the fact that providence of world is more higher than fate, because evansmana it self that can cut fate cannot cut jerga
Ehhh.. why??? Explain. Arnos resisting other order not have any connection that he resisting ivis' time stop
Except their powers come from Order which makes their abilities a manipulation of that.That still just sounds like time stop resistance. You're going to need more than just that to give Anos law resistance via fighting off a time stop spell.
Also, the copious amount of BS that is being done here is unprecedented. No one is even arguing with evidence, just semantics and headcanon.
It's either you find evidence that supports your claim, for or against, or just back off. Not bringing stuff that doesn't matter based off "your interpretation". There is absolutely no reason your interpretation should be considered correct despite all evidence to the contrary. This applies to both sides.
As with the last thread, can't really say how active I'll be. I'm kinda busy with IRL stuffs.
In regard to what I said above. @EldemadeDityjon seriously, try hunting for scans to support your claim. It doesn't help your case when you argue interpretation vs interpretation.
About the Gods abilities. All of their powers relating to their Order are CM, Law & Fate. No amount of arguing is changing that thus resisting Eugo's time stop is resisting applied Conceptual, Law & Fate Manipulation.
This is their literal existence. You'd need to drive a hard bargain for why their powers aren't these things. God's are bound to Order. All their actions are determined by Order and they cannot go against Order. Not to mention Nosgalia using any of his powers literally says "obey Order"
The main point would be the scan where it implies that it was Nosgalia, the heaven father God who gave the power to jerga to become a magic "second only to the order of the gods" indicates that Nosgalia was the one who gave him that power, but limited because Nosgalia creates gods according to what is necessary for his order so conditions had to be made and one of them was that jerga was a lesser order or as the scan says "second only to the order of the gods" because the world didn't need more gods.The point of contention is whether this applies more generally to Orders. Even with the provided scans in mind, it's not clear whether all Orders work the same way Jerga does. Rather than just focusing on Jerga's case, could more elaboration be given on the general nature of Orders?
Thanks for taking your time Dark. I will leave Clarification of Jerga to Oblivion later onwards.As for the Resistance to Time Stop matter, I think more context on how exactly the Time Stop power works would be warranted. The way it's been described sounds as though the world is stopped in time due to the laws governing time itself being altered to make it stop - being able to move around in such a world anyway would probably qualify for Resistance to Law Manipulation, but it's not clear whether this is how the Time Stop actually works or if this is just an inference.
The argument for time stop being fate manipulation is all living or non living things will stuck inside that Silver World for Eternity frozen in time. It's stopping the fate of those things that's how I interpret it. Additionally Eugola Raviaz himself is God who claimed gods determined fate is absolute.As for Resistance to Fate Manipulation, I'm not even sure what the argument is trying to say. Several people in this thread have put forward different arguments and interpretations, and all of them are rather weak. A quote like "Demons are 'destined' to die" is broad - "destined" is not necessarily being used in the purely literal sense in that quote, because the whole point of the quote is saying "people will always hate demons, so they'll continue fighting and killing them". It doesn't need to be literal "destiny" for this quote to make sense - it's just a reasonable assumption that it would continue to happen. Furthermore, the quotes that are clearly literal like "The fate determined by the Gods is absolute" are just lacking in relevancy - even if this quote is 100% true and literal, how does this mean that someone gets Resistance to Fate Manipulation by walking in a time-stopped world? I've re-read all the sources suggesting Resistance to Fate Manipulation a couple of times, and none of them are particularly convincing.
To further elaborate on what elde said above, Order itself are the Concepts, Laws, Fate that govern the world and Gods are the ones that maintain that Order.even if this quote is 100% true and literal, how does this mean that someone gets Resistance to Fate Manipulation by walking in a time-stopped world?
Elde, when Eugo first appeared, he didn't stop time. The garden of the Time God is a sanctuary, a realm which is isolated from the time of the world. The reason <Tel> stopped working is because it shows the time of the World but the Time God's world is isolated from that timeSnip
I may be wrong may be not. I have read this scans multiple times. If what you claiming is true then Anos wouldn't have said " Did you forget where you are right now" they were still in the same world but more like both worlds getting intercepted I guess. He easily Summons Venozdonor and Stomps him. Also second scans states World time started to move again. I don't know man it looks like time really stopped when Eugola appeared but I get your point.Elde, when Eugo first appeared, he didn't stop time. The garden of the Time God is a sanctuary, a realm which is isolated from the time of the world. The reason <Tel> stopped working is because it shows the time of the World but the Time God's world is isolated from that time
Jerga became the Type 1 concept abstraction after turning himself into "magic". As you can see from my above post, it all started with that.Is the magic they're talking about specifically about the whole concept of hatred that he's boasting about or is it something else? If the former then I could see it being potentially type 1, but I'd like some more explicit statements to hand out type 1 concepts to everyone who can control order.
So, this point here is interesting. Your line of reasoning makes some sense, but I don't think of this as an outright contradiction.So if we assume that Jerga is type 1 then we assume that Nosgalia is a weaker order than Jerga by being Type 2 which would be completely contradictory to the series as Nosgalia is the order of order and the heaven father God.
Both of us may be right and wrong about something. Guess we'll just have to wait until Vol 6 where Eugo makes another appearance with the gardenI may be wrong may be not. I have read this scans multiple times. If what you claiming is true then Anos wouldn't have said " Did you forget where you are right now" they were still in the same world but more like both worlds getting intercepted I guess. He easily Summons Venozdonor and Stomps him. Also second scans states World time started to move again. I don't know man it looks like time really stopped when Eugola appeared but I get your point.
This should help you. For now it's the only thing I can give you as Example because of Limited gods introduced in the series so far. Order won't be get destroyed even if the Order which governs the reality gets destroyed. Order will Only disrupted but reality will gets destroyed because of not being able to maintain the order of the world. Nosgalia himself is order which governs the reality of the world. Anos destroyed him which started to lead world into Destruction. But order was not affected. Later Anos brings back the Nosgalia which make the dirupsted order to settle down as how it originally was. Also already there is a scan for Aberneyu Goddess of destruction in OP. Order Of Destruction was indeed disrupted and world was leading towards chaos but order was not destroyed even though Order of destruction removed from the world.I know this probably sounds pedantic by this point, but what I'm looking for is information showing that Orders being detached from the aspect of reality they govern is universal and/or inherent. This would show, practically beyond question, that all Orders must be Type 1 Concepts. I invite anyone who can provide evidence of this sort to do so.
Also, what the **** do you mean by "order was destroyed but order wasn't destroyed"? that's simply a contradiction lol
Yeah, you ain't responding to anything since I've made it clear Order is fate.To respond to earlier stuff, providence isn't fate. It's just shorthand for protection from god or nature, which isn't necessarily fatehax.
"The fate determined by gods" makes 0 mention of order, so even if gods have fatehax (which I find a little questionable), that wouldn't necessarily mean order is fatehax as well.Yeah, you ain't responding to anything since I've made it clear Order is fate.
Pretty sure he hasn't said he disagreed he is still arguing lolAlso, why is Glass listed in neutral? He very clearly disagreed with the thread.
He asked for evidence regarding type 1, but that until it's posted, order is just type 2 and the time stop resistance is, well, just time stop resistance.Pretty sure he hasn't said he disagreed he is still arguing lol
Hah??? Even if there no mentioning order, as far as it say god then it mean power of order, there are no god that not bound by order"The fate determined by gods" makes 0 mention of order,
Okay? That doesn't mean every ability gods use are order itself, or that order in general has those powers. That's like saying if one character who uses magic casts a spell, then every other magic user can cast that exact same spell.Hah??? Even if there no mentioning order, as far as it say god then it mean power of order, there are no god that not bound by order
I mean, I don't see why we can't judge each order individually for the time being. Jerga's is type 1, and everyone else's is type 2 for now. That, or maybe just go with "type 2, possibly type 1"? I prefer the former option, in any case.In regards to the above quotes provided by EldemadeDityjon to support Orders being Type 1 Concepts, I'm inclined to agree with Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara. I don't see how those quotes prove anything.
That being said, I ask for clear-cut evidence on the form Orders take if such evidence exists, whatever conclusion this evidence made lead to. "If such evidence exists" is key here - I recognise that it's possible the series just does not elaborate enough on the nature of Orders to say for sure whether they generally qualify for Type 1 or Type 2.
If this is the case, and we cannot prove it one way or the other (which I am still holding out hope is not the case), I would be willing to use inductive reasoning here and say that Orders are Type 1 Concepts. I don't believe anything provided thus far has proven this to be case - what we have shown is the existence of multiple Orders that could qualify for Type 1 Concepts, including those purportedly placed low on the hierarchy, with the suggestion that concepts higher on the hierarchy should be stronger than the lower Type 1 Concept embodied by Jerga. None of this proves all Orders are Type 1 Concepts, but these are a few facts that we could rationally infer a principle from. We know within reason that Orders are either Type 1 or Type 2 Concepts; we need to decide how to treat them on profiles one way or the other, creating a dilemma. Within this dilemma, there is more support for the former conclusion than the latter, and so it would be unreasonable to take the latter stance just to be conservative.
Right now, what I have said is hypothetical. I would rather we had proof, whether that proof leads us to think Orders are all Type 1 Concepts, or that only some Orders are Type 1 Concepts.
Every ability of the gods are a power of orderOkay? That doesn't mean every ability gods use are order itself, or that order in general has those powers. That's like saying if one character who uses magic casts a spell, then every other magic user can cast that exact same spell.
Even if that were true, why would that mean all order is inherently fate hax? The fate hax would just be one potential use of order, much like any god's ability, and wouldn't be scalable to every single instance of "order" in general being manipulated. To put it another way, it's like giving every instance of order time manipulation just because Ivis' time manipulation is based on order.Every ability of the gods are a power of order
The thing Is Jerga was himself merged with Order. Same goes for all gods. It's just kinda Contradicts the narrative to give Jerga who is Pseudo Order CM type 1 and Pure Orders Nosgalia and Other gods CM type 2.In regards to the above quotes provided by EldemadeDityjon to support Orders being Type 1 Concepts, I'm inclined to agree with Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara. I don't see how those quotes prove anything.
That being said, I ask for clear-cut evidence on the form Orders take if such evidence exists, whatever conclusion this evidence made lead to. "If such evidence exists" is key here - I recognise that it's possible the series just does not elaborate enough on the nature of Orders to say for sure whether they generally qualify for Type 1 or Type 2.
If this is the case, and we cannot prove it one way or the other (which I am still holding out hope is not the case), I would be willing to use inductive reasoning here and say that Orders are Type 1 Concepts. I don't believe anything provided thus far has proven this to be case - what we have shown is the existence of multiple Orders that could qualify for Type 1 Concepts, including those purportedly placed low on the hierarchy, with the suggestion that concepts higher on the hierarchy should be stronger than the lower Type 1 Concept embodied by Jerga. None of this proves all Orders are Type 1 Concepts, but these are a few facts that we could rationally infer a principle from. We know within reason that Orders are either Type 1 or Type 2 Concepts; we need to decide how to treat them on profiles one way or the other, creating a dilemma. Within this dilemma, there is more support for the former conclusion than the latter, and so it would be unreasonable to take the latter stance just to be conservative.
Right now, what I have said is hypothetical. I would rather we had proof, whether that proof leads us to think Orders are all Type 1 Concepts, or that only some Orders are Type 1 Concepts.
Touhou name manipulation you literally claimed everything based on names as CM type 1 and here you can't Accept Order being CM type 1? This is one heck of an bias from you and glass who agreed with you on that threadSnip.
Bruh... The scan literally say "the fate determined by the gods" that sentence imply a generalization not specification, in other hand the order of time is literally imply a specification so your example is wrongEven if that were true, why would that mean all order is inherently fate hax? The fate hax would just be one potential use of order, much like any god's ability, and wouldn't be scalable to every single instance of "order" in general being manipulated. To put it another way, it's like giving every instance of order time manipulation just because Ivis' time manipulation is based on order.
I concur that Nosgalia is probably a Type 1 Concept. I am curious about the other gods, though. If I recall, Jerga is lower on the hierarchy than the other gods, correct? If so, what does this hierarchy entail? What does it mean for a god to be higher on the hierarchy than someone/something else?The thing Is Jerga was himself merged with Order. Same goes for all gods. It's just kinda Contradicts the narrative to give Jerga who is Pseudo Order CM type 1 and Pure Orders Nosgalia and Other gods CM type 2.
What? Gods don't fuse their sources with order like Jerga did, they are embodiments of order (or order itself). The entire point of contention here is that what Jerga did was unique and not necessarily scalable to all other orders. Also, don't use MTL from the WN to support your point, the entire reason MG was deleted because of all the bad MTL leading to misunderstandings.The thing Is Jerga was himself merged with Order. Same goes for all gods. It's just kinda Contradicts the narrative to give Jerga who is Pseudo Order CM type 1 and Pure Orders Nosgalia and Other gods CM type 2.
You could check this page for complete explanation on how order works but LN Translation not catch up to this point. I am only giving you this for reference.
Cope.Touhou name manipulation you literally claimed everything based on names as CM type 1 and here you can't Accept Order being CM type 1? This is one heck of an bias from you and glass who agreed with you on that thread
Yes, gods determine fate. That doesn't mean every time someone manipulates order, they are manipulating fate.Bruh... The scan literally say "the fate determined by the gods" that sentence imply a generalization not specification, in other hand the order of time is literally imply a specification so your example is wrong
Hah??? Bruh you in this case will contradict with the verse's context it self. Gods have their power because of order, there are no ability or power of the gods that the order not haveYes, gods determine fate. That doesn't mean every time someone manipulates order, they are manipulating fate.
Do you have an actual source for this? Because saying that every single ability a god has is also possessed by order feels like a very extraordinary claim with little evidence backing it up.Hah??? Bruh you in this case will contradict with the verse's context it self. Gods have their power because of order, there are no ability or power of the gods that the order not have
Gods are literally are order @Tatsumi504 or @EldemadeDityjon can show that feats because i dont have feats from LN in my phone. Is can you not have something even if "you" have it?Do you have an actual source for this? Because saying that every single ability a god has is also possessed by order feels like a very extraordinary claim with little evidence backing it up.
And i dont even say anything about thisAnd like I said before, even if order is fate hax, that wouldn't mean resisting a time stop is resistance to fate hax.
It's a spoiler Nosgalia created Jerga in Volume 9. Yeah Jerga is below him and Creator God created Nosgalia and other orders.I concur that Nosgalia is probably a Type 1 Concept. I am curious about the other gods, though. If I recall, Jerga is lower on the hierarchy than the other gods, correct? If so, what does this hierarchy entail? What does it mean for a god to be higher on the hierarchy than someone/something else?
"The Fate Determined by the Gods", "God's power is absolute", "Obey Order", "The God's have Ordained your destruction, this Order cannot be changed"."The fate determined by gods" makes 0 mention of order, so even if gods have fatehax (which I find a little questionable), that wouldn't necessarily mean order is fatehax as well.
Also, why is Glass listed in neutral? He very clearly disagreed with the thread.
Lmao, they literally can. Anyone can use any spell as long as it's not race and individual specific.Okay? That doesn't mean every ability gods use are order itself, or that order in general has those powers. That's like saying if one character who uses magic casts a spell, then every other magic user can cast that exact same spell.
Enough of your headcanons. Not only is that completely incomprehensible, they are completely different. Eugo La Raviaz Order is Time, Nosgalia's is Order, Militia's is Creation, Avernyu's is Destruction.Even if that were true, why would that mean all order is inherently fate hax? The fate hax would just be one potential use of order, much like any god's ability, and wouldn't be scalable to every single instance of "order" in general being manipulated. To put it another way, it's like giving every instance of order time manipulation just because Ivis' time manipulation is based on order.
I'll try not to waste your time. Personally, you're all arguing about useless semantics that don't even matter (no offense intended).I concur that Nosgalia is probably a Type 1 Concept. I am curious about the other gods, though. If I recall, Jerga is lower on the hierarchy than the other gods, correct? If so, what does this hierarchy entail? What does it mean for a god to be higher on the hierarchy than someone/something else?
I don't get it. Isn't this just to give Anos CM 1?Agree with Order being CM type 1
It is only for Anos currently. I don't want to drag this. Especially we don't have any others profile. So no use in arguing meaninglessly. Just concentrate on what's important for Anos profile currently.I don't get it. Isn't this just to give Anos CM 1?
I don't get it. Isn't this just to give Anos CM 1?
^It is only for Anos currently. I don't want to drag this. Especially we don't have any others profile. So no use in arguing meaninglessly. Just concentrate on what's important for Anos profile currently.