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Fictional combat skill and VSB; Giving Skill a concrete form
- Thread starter First_Witch
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- #83
I know you have my back, I see dem likes. Thanks for the support
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- #84
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- #85
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- #87
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- #88
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- #89
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- #91
You can call me many things, impatient you cannot.
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- #92
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This thread can move on without DT, its just a matter of staff members coming to give their opinions.
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That's the sad part, someone is trying to do something that seems good and staff just nope out of it.I'm afraid that doesn't seem to happen either.
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- #98
For clarity's sake; I have chucked by blog into our favorite resident AI chatgpt and asked it to improve the blog on grammar, spelling and readability. It also added tons of new sentences to my points, so I kept the ones i really like. Do hope this combined with the fact that i chucked my completely self written initial version into it suffices for people to not believe the current text is AI written and that i'm relying on chat bots to argue for me. Text should read better now.
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- #100
Is this a conclusion you have reached after reading my blog?
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I mean my conclusions dont matter here but it really just isnt something you can quantify other properly or conclusively, and you can only really go off of showings and examples. At the same time, skill is very relevant when statstomps arent a thing most of the time so its worth an optional section i reckon, but relies more of feats than giving it some boldened vague word like 'Skilled' tbh
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- #102
So I assume you have not read my blog then.
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Well not all of it cause i dont really need to read up on what combat skill is but like, theres no way the masses of VSBW can accurately quantify combat skill if it requires that much reading to be on the same page for something very subjective. Best thing to do is provide examples, texts and let people make the decision in versus threads when it comes to 'who is superior in skill'. Obviously fields of 'skill' will also be different. Its like adding the same struggle the wiki has with defining Intelligence to a whole new category.
At the same time, yeah it'd be useful if we could distinguish combat-skill related abilities from supernatural power abilities in the powers and abilities section better (Like how the wiki treats something like manual analytical prediction the same as general Precognition when only one of those is based on something you can train naturally most of the time)
At the same time, yeah it'd be useful if we could distinguish combat-skill related abilities from supernatural power abilities in the powers and abilities section better (Like how the wiki treats something like manual analytical prediction the same as general Precognition when only one of those is based on something you can train naturally most of the time)
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- #104
It is that massive because I'm trying to be thorough. And I'm being as thorough as I could be precisely because I'm attempting to proof that it is not that subjective.
Has worked really well with 0 framework, 0 common basis and 0 understanding on the topic. The joke people tell themselves is pretending that intelligence is somehow less complicated and subjective than combat skill.
And how do you plan to do that if skill is just subjective? If enough people believe that warping reality through a "sword technique" is skill, then how is anyone here supposed determine what is and isn't skill?
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As you should be, but the more elements there are to this combat skill stat (and the multiple other variables) then the harder it becomes to quantify in comparison through the same sort of system this wiki uses
Context ig? Its case-by-case and both sides provide their arguments. In the case of a sword cutting space or whatever, that tends to usually be supernatural power-based (that may require some skill/technique on that character's level), but from there you pick up context clues or you rule it as unknown
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- #106
How can rigorous and, hopefully, clear standards make quantification harder. This doesn't make sense. Especially in comparison to nothing. Because this wiki doesn't have a "system" for skill in the first place.
See, this tell me you probably just flew over the blog at best, considering that i have painstakingly explained how this nonsense is not skill. The entire intro section is all about what makes skill skill.
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Because the more elements and variables you add to something, the less you're able to (at least easily) generalise it. And the more subjectivity on what is a 'better showing of skill' takes place.
Well its fiction, so what classifies as skill-based and supernatural-based is entirely verse-dependent. A technique that 'cuts through space' can be achieved through certain powers or abilities, but then sometimes techniques like that are entirely required by the user to train (a.k.a skill-based) in order to achieve. Theres different rules to what verses qualify as possible through sheer training (and its all bs because its fiction).
It would definitely be classified as a skill-feat for that specific character if a character had been able to learn and train a technique (without any innate supernatural powers backing them i guess, other than the verse power system?) that achieves this, and of course unless you're purely talking about hand-to-hand combat skill, a users' skill within their own power system or specialty of fighting would also have different standards.
Well its fiction, so what classifies as skill-based and supernatural-based is entirely verse-dependent. A technique that 'cuts through space' can be achieved through certain powers or abilities, but then sometimes techniques like that are entirely required by the user to train (a.k.a skill-based) in order to achieve. Theres different rules to what verses qualify as possible through sheer training (and its all bs because its fiction).
It would definitely be classified as a skill-feat for that specific character if a character had been able to learn and train a technique (without any innate supernatural powers backing them i guess, other than the verse power system?) that achieves this, and of course unless you're purely talking about hand-to-hand combat skill, a users' skill within their own power system or specialty of fighting would also have different standards.
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- #108
A objective standard emerging from physical reality, created to serve solely as a common basis to compare skill across fiction to, makes things harder to generalise? What "elements" or "variables" are you talking about in the first place? What about "not violating biomechanics and physics" makes it a element that makes things harder to generalise?? What about "comparing feats on simple standards such as quality and quantity" introduces variables that makes things "more subjective"??? Especially in relations to now where subjectivity is king??? How can anyone here argue about skills subjectivity, while also wholeheartly believing that, for example, comic book Batman outskills random martial artists? On what basis do you (Not YOU specificly) claim this? Clearly, comparisons are possible. SOMETHING tells us this is true, and my blog attempts to put this something into words, rooted in logic.
It being fiction DOES NOT IMPLY that basic logic, human understanding of reality, the meaning of word and definition stop working. With the same logic, what stops anyone from classifying every ability imaginable as just a subset of fire manipulation?? Its fiction, who cares, why even make distinctions of words if it could mean anything? But we don't do that. words have meaning. We have standards. I would like to believe that our standards are rooted in logic. Skill has meaning and logic behind it. I explained it so so much. We do the same shit for "dimensions"... The same shit for "concepts"... The same shit for "souls"...
Please stop making vague arguments that I have adressed in my stupid blog and just make actual counterclaims against it. Its my entire thought process, logic and stance on the topic. Like, apologies, i'm really trying to be as calm and friendly as possible here, but please understand that it is really frustrating to have people argue the same point of "its too subjective" over and over again, when a good 50% of my blog adresses this very topic to an unhealthy degree. And I'm, harping on this blog not because I think its a masterpiece and everyone should have read it and praise me uwu, but because it my entire thought process and arguments put down into a text.
And I dont mind people arguing with me on this, please do. But I cant do much with vague arguments. Like do I have to just copy paste my blog here to get people to actually concretize their points
It being fiction DOES NOT IMPLY that basic logic, human understanding of reality, the meaning of word and definition stop working. With the same logic, what stops anyone from classifying every ability imaginable as just a subset of fire manipulation?? Its fiction, who cares, why even make distinctions of words if it could mean anything? But we don't do that. words have meaning. We have standards. I would like to believe that our standards are rooted in logic. Skill has meaning and logic behind it. I explained it so so much. We do the same shit for "dimensions"... The same shit for "concepts"... The same shit for "souls"...
Please stop making vague arguments that I have adressed in my stupid blog and just make actual counterclaims against it. Its my entire thought process, logic and stance on the topic. Like, apologies, i'm really trying to be as calm and friendly as possible here, but please understand that it is really frustrating to have people argue the same point of "its too subjective" over and over again, when a good 50% of my blog adresses this very topic to an unhealthy degree. And I'm, harping on this blog not because I think its a masterpiece and everyone should have read it and praise me uwu, but because it my entire thought process and arguments put down into a text.
And I dont mind people arguing with me on this, please do. But I cant do much with vague arguments. Like do I have to just copy paste my blog here to get people to actually concretize their points
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I mean i dont have the time to be making a counterclaim to an entire blog, but obviously thats the whole point of subjectivity: People will view things differently to you, and sadly i think something like Combat Skill is just like this. Its a cool blog and all and I definitely think we should lab a section regarding it, I just really dont think theres a definitive way of labelling it when we can just go over feats/showings and compare from there.
Its also about whether the masses of VSBW can get behind and make this a consistent section to a modern quality, which i dont trust but maybe we can slowly get there
Its also about whether the masses of VSBW can get behind and make this a consistent section to a modern quality, which i dont trust but maybe we can slowly get there
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- #110
A-argue against the points you disagree with?? No. Its fine. Its alright. Thank you for your input, it is duly noted. You can unsubscribe this thread now, i will go back to bumping this thread on a weekly basis.
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This stuff gets srsI mean it might help if you perhaps had a lengthy example of how this would all look on a page of your choice? How this would all translate and relate in practice. I just really dont see how we can put a meaningful value on the entirety of someones skill as opposed to just going over and reporting every aspect of their skill (with example feats)
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No, what do you mean with "value"? I'm not trying to apply any "value" to skill. This blog, from start to finish, has been about defining skill, what constitutes as skill and what doesnt, what the categories of skill are, how you can compare 2 feats to determine which is better and how certain common arguments about skill are shit, like skill scaling chains, experience.
I mean it might help if you perhaps had a lengthy example of how this would all look on a page of your choice? How this would all translate and relate in practice. I just really dont see how we can put a meaningful value on the entirety of someones skill as opposed to just going over and reporting every aspect of their skill (with example feats)
Like no, genuinly, what do you mean with values?? Why does your binary imply that I don't want people to report every aspect of their skill?
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So this is just about spreading awareness of how people handle skill-related disputes/debates on the wiki rather than changing anything or quantifying 'skill' on profiles or....?
Cause i reckon people can just elaborate what abilities are determined by skill on the actual page in itself, and then from there the best argument wins I guess? I think skill can be scaled to a limited extent, and experience is definitely a factor in some way (like whether or not the character has been able to deal with similar things in terms of versus threads and if that matters contextually?) to be fair. It feels case-by-case though
Cause i reckon people can just elaborate what abilities are determined by skill on the actual page in itself, and then from there the best argument wins I guess? I think skill can be scaled to a limited extent, and experience is definitely a factor in some way (like whether or not the character has been able to deal with similar things in terms of versus threads and if that matters contextually?) to be fair. It feels case-by-case though
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- #114
Please... Just read the blog, no, read the OP. Read anything. Also be reminded that this is a staff only thread.
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I cant see Imgur stuff 
Ig the blog would be useful as a 'Further Reading' resource but an actual page on Skill for the general traffic would have to be much more abridged and downsized as the main resource, much like the other stats.
I think the listing stuff OP doesnt like is a fine way of reporting on Combat Skill for the character tbh. Collapsible text box ofc
Ig the blog would be useful as a 'Further Reading' resource but an actual page on Skill for the general traffic would have to be much more abridged and downsized as the main resource, much like the other stats.
I think the listing stuff OP doesnt like is a fine way of reporting on Combat Skill for the character tbh. Collapsible text box ofc
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- #118
Ant, we don't have a system. At least not for skill. Skill, both on profiles and in debates, is just the wild west of who gets away with the most illogical thing vaguely dressed up in a "combat skill" dressing until someone ask critical questions. Rarely anyone does it. Because we have no standards. No ideas, what falls into skill and what doesn't. We have collectively decided that skill is "too complicated" and "too subjective", while somehow agreeing that putting arbitrary ratings on intelligence somehow makes more sense, but that's not my conversation. My blog was all about arguing against this notion, explaining why, putting forth basic standards and arguing against the bad chaff that is usually hanging on skillI briefly skimmed through your blog, but did not notice how you wish to make any of this easily understood and practically, constructively, and concisely applicable to our system.
What I take as a chip on my shoulder is that I should have simply done both, a thorough explanation blog and a blog detailing implementation, fair enough. But see this from my perspective; If I started with a actual page for skill, I would have gotten tons of dismissive posts about how skill is too subjective. So I decided to start with an thorough explanation of why I believe a standard is more than doable. I could whip out a draft for concrete standards this week, remove a bulk of the text and condence it into 3 - 4 paragraphs. But if I have to spend the rest of this thread explaining why I want to standardize the way the drafts proposes, then you have to forgive me for being a bit annoyed.
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Well, what I meant is that you need to summarise general community guidelines and suggested practical applications a lot if you want them to be realistically applicable and also evaluated by our staff members.
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