Fiamme vs Fiamma

[DontTalkDT]

Fiamme vs Fiamma
5-B versions
Speed Equal

 

[Schnee_One]

I don’t think Fiamma will instantly BFR Fiamme and the hand can be survived through immortality, and then the mind Manip and corruption (Both are above Fiamma’s resistance) should seal the deal.

 

[XDragnoir]

I don’t think Fiamma will instantly BFR Fiamme and the hand can be survived through immortality, and then the mind Manip and corruption (Both are above Fiamma’s resistance) should seal the deal.

There is no reason HR wouldn't start with BFR, it's main power is to attack in a way that will defeat it's target, if the target exceeds it's max output (or is close enough that it wouldn't be defeated), it makes no sense to HR to try using a "physical blow", and btw, nothing in Toaru was stronger than it at the time, and Touma can't be BFR'ed anyway, so that is why it was never used. And Fiamma's main point isn't that he resists mind/soul hax, but that HR can still fight even under it's effects as long as Fiamma isn't killed by it, but does this Fire Orb even have a 4km range?

 

[DontTalkDT]

There is no reason HR wouldn't start with BFR, it's main power is to attack in a way that will defeat it's target, if the target exceeds it's max output (or is close enough that it wouldn't be defeated), it makes no sense to HR to try using a "physical blow"

C'mon man. You know that's not what it does.

Your power automatically regulates the strength of your arm’s power matching it to the level of difficulty of your enemy. In other words, the stronger the enemy that stands before you, the stronger the power you can draw out

It's all about power not selecting different abilities or something.

 

[Schnee_One]

So first I hear that HR adapts to become stronger then its opponent, and now it straight up switches abilities on the fly first attack

I am officially done with Fiamma matches.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So first I hear that HR adapts to become stronger then its opponent, and now it straight up switches abilities on the fly first attack

I am officially done with Fiamma matches.

You're officially done with the ToAru community more than with Fiamma... Here's a tip: If you debate anything ToAru related don't believe anything that you can't find on the profile like that, without first being shown quotes with context.

 

[Schnee_One]

That would make Fiamma the worst because he is the most barebones file in the entire verse if we account for the amount of shit I've been told he can do.

I think I'll just stick with Accelerator matches.

 

[XDragnoir]

“That is correct. You could say my right hand has the power to create... miracles.” Fiamma slowly moved through the rubble and continued. “The Son of God used his right hand to cure the illnesses of the sick and revive the deceased. It was the right hand which drew the cross and scattered the holy water used for the baptism of Christ. Furthermore, Archangel Michael—the right hand of God—has the distinction of being the greatest weapon in history, having cast down an uncountable number of fallen angels; even Lucifer was defeated when opposed by Archangel Michael. It is such an overwhelming power.”

(I am trying to create various phenomena using the miracles and blessings of the Son of God to their fullest and this bastard doesn’t care!? He has the power to just walk straight over all the vague things such as fortune and misfortune on his own!!)

He clearly can do more than just release huge amounts of energy, Miracle Creation is even listed as reality warping in his profile, and every attack the HR does is a miracle. Not even counting the passive reality overwriting he has in this key, which is nearly never used in vs. matches, afaik.

Your power automatically regulates the strength of your arm’s power matching it to the level of difficulty of your enemy. In other words, the stronger the enemy that stands before you, the stronger the power you can draw out

Wasn't Touma who said that? Is he really the best source to explain how magic works? And we don't treat it like that due to NLF iirc.

 

[DontTalkDT]

“That is correct. You could say my right hand has the power to create... miracles.” Fiamma slowly moved through the rubble and continued. “The Son of God used his right hand to cure the illnesses of the sick and revive the deceased. It was the right hand which drew the cross and scattered the holy water used for the baptism of Christ. Furthermore, Archangel Michael—the right hand of God—has the distinction of being the greatest weapon in history, having cast down an uncountable number of fallen angels; even Lucifer was defeated when opposed by Archangel Michael. It is such an overwhelming power.”

(I am trying to create various phenomena using the miracles and blessings of the Son of God to their fullest and this bastard doesn’t care!? He has the power to just walk straight over all the vague things such as fortune and misfortune on his own!!)

He clearly can do more than just release huge amounts of energy, Miracle Creation is even listed as reality warping in his profile, and every attack the HR does is a miracle. Not even counting the passive reality overwriting he has in this key, which is nearly never used in vs. matches, afaik.

I'm not saying he doesn't have miracle creation, I'm saying that the fact that "The Strike That Ends Everything It Touches" doesn't choose abilities, but only power output.
The Holy right doesn't automatically switch to the abilities of Fiamma that work. The strike is its own technique and is specifically just about choosing strength, not abilities.

Wasn't Touma who said that? Is he really the best source to explain how magic works?

There are a ton of other quotes that explain it that way. This is just the easiest. You can look at LazyHunters respect thread of Fiamma for the rest.

 

[XDragnoir]

I'm not saying he doesn't have miracle creation, I'm saying that the fact that "The Strike That Ends Everything It Touches" doesn't choose abilities, but only power output.
The Holy right doesn't automatically switch to the abilities of Fiamma that work. The strike is its own technique and is specifically just about choosing strength, not abilities.

There are a ton of other quotes that explain it that way. This is just the easiest. You can look at LazyHunters respect thread of Fiamma for the rest.

"The Strike" isn't even an attack, it was how his power, the Holy Right (i.e Miracle Creation), was described:

He merely swung his right arm lightly. “I do not need destructive force.” [...] “If I touch my enemy, it’s over, so I don’t need to put any effort into destroying them.” [...] “I do not need speed.” A cold voice cut her off. Forcefully. Exceedingly overwhelming. “If I swing, I hit my enemy, so I don’t need to put any effort into hitting them.” Kamijou did not know what happened.

His arm was supposed to be almighty. If he swung it, it would hit, so he had no need for speed. If he hit, the target would be destroyed, so he had no need for destructive power.

Iirc, the only one who describes HR as being more physical than "miraculous" is Touma (Fiamma may have done it a few times, tho)

 

[DontTalkDT]

And which part of that quote gives you the impression that the holy right switches to abilities besides destruction on its own? That it would do BFR without Fiamma specifically willing it to do just that? It literally says it specifically does destruction right there.

 

[XDragnoir]

Okay, so, instead of the first attack, it would be the second? Like, it recognizes a big threat, uses full power, does not work, uses BFR? I think cutting a planet may be stronger than turning it into dust, so it already is above the max output during the first attack, so HR using BFR first should still be possible.

 

[Schnee_One]

More Like

First attack hits, then Fiamme uses her hax upon coming back

Fiamme can also create a portal back possibly

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay, so, instead of the first attack, it would be te second? Like, it recognizes a big threat, uses full power, does not work, uses BFR?

You talk about the holy right like it is an intelligent entity. Fiamma is the one that does the decisions for BFR.
Anyway, it would be first attack destruction. Second attack trying something else (Or once it's clear that destruction doesn't work, which isn't necessarily after the first attack). Considering that Fiamma in character never used the BFR technique I have my doubts that 'anything else' is BFR instead of things he has shown to use, such as Index Controller magic.

I also want to point out that Fiamme, despite being immortal, apparently lacks regeneration. So, I guess she (it?) can be incapacitated by enough damage?

 

[XDragnoir]

You talk about the holy right like it is an intelligent entity. Fiamma is the one that does the decisions for BFR.
Anyway, it would be first attack destruction. Second attack trying something else (Or once it's clear that destruction doesn't work, which isn't necessarily after the first attack). Considering that Fiamma in character never used the BFR technique I have my doubts that 'anything else' is BFR instead of things he has shown to use, such as Index Controller magic.

I also want to point out that Fiamme, despite being immortal, apparently lacks regeneration. So, I guess she (it?) can be incapacitated by enough damage?

Well, it isn't alive, but it has acted without Fiamma's input, so it's like instinctive/automatic?

Index controller strongest attack is H6C, and it has a few haxes, but they are all pretty weak, there is no reason Fiamma would use it against someone that survived HR's max output, and Fiamma knows he has the BFR miracle, he never used it because nothing in the series was strong enough at that point to resist a 5B attack, and Touma nulls BFR.

But anyway, what is stronger, cutting a planet in half or turning it into dust?

Also, Fiamma's Phase Manipulation would give him the victory if the battle lasts enough, since it would remove Fiamme from the world, unless it goes outside the planet due to phases size and all these things.

 

[Schnee_One]

Cutting it in half overpowers GBE, so that

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, it isn't alive, but it has acted without Fiamma's input, so it's like instinctive/automatic?

It's a technique that can do automatic reactions. Not more than a very simple computer program essentially. Like, just a little more complicated than a gun that shoots on anything that moves.

Index controller strongest attack is H6C, and it has a few haxes, but they are all pretty weak, there is no reason Fiamma would use it against someone that survived HR's max output, and Fiamma knows he has the BFR miracle, he never used it because nothing in the series was strong enough at that point to resist a 5B attack, and Touma nulls BFR.

Index Controller has plenty of spells. Like, presumably more than 103k of them. Presumably, it would be powered up due to Fiamma's power up as well. And fictional characters don't always act with optimal logic and instantaneous reasoning.
For that matter, we also don't know the requirements of the BFR. Maybe it takes time, maybe it requires direct physical contact. The technique is barely explained.

But anyway, what is stronger, cutting a planet in half or turning it into dust?

Both feats are dominated by the GBE. There barely is any difference.

Also, Fiamma's Phase Manipulation would give him the victory if the battle lasts enough, since it would remove Fiamme from the world, unless it goes outside the planet due to phases size and all these things.

You seem to be assuming that Fiamma can control phases like a magic god or something like that. Aside from the telesma blast his usage has no demonstrated combat purposes. He isn't just selectively erasing enemies with it.

 

[XDragnoir]

It's a technique that can do automatic reactions. Not more than a very simple computer program essentially. Like, just a little more complicated than a gun that shoots on anything that moves.

Agreed.

Index Controller has plenty of spells. Like, presumably more than 103k of them. Presumably, it would be powered up due to Fiamma's power up as well. And fictional characters don't always act with optimal logic and instantaneous reasoning.
For that matter, we also don't know the requirements of the BFR. Maybe it takes time, maybe it requires direct physical contact. The technique is barely explained.

Agreed, but, we don't know anything about most of them, like, the only information i remember about their full power is that:

1-It has 0 mind control spells (mind/memory damage isn't included since the Faethers have it)
2-Anyone with full access to them would be comparable to a Magic God.

Both feats are dominated by the GBE. There barely is any difference.

Is that so? Well, i would still say cutting it in half is better, i know one verse where this feat was calced at 5A, but the calc is old, so it may have been revised.

You seem to be assuming that Fiamma can control phases like a magic god or something like that. Aside from the telesma blast his usage has no demonstrated combat purposes. He isn't just selectively erasing enemies with it.

Assuming? It is said he can erase/rewrite/remove anything that he does not see as a blessing, the only problem being that it is done overtime (time he didn't have in the LNs, since LPSAD was a thing for less than 3 minutes):

Fiamma would cover the entire world in only the blessings that fit into the limits of what he could imagine. He saw no value in anything else. In a way, a world like that would be a utopia. The earth would be a planet where everything but blessings had been annihilated.

 

[Zensum]

For what it's worth, if you are concerned about GBE, I believe "blowing the planet away" would yield more than the dusting and the splitting.

 

[XDragnoir]

For what it's worth, if you are concerned about GBE, I believe "blowing the planet away" would yield more than the dusting and the splitting.

Like what Gabriel would have done? So... Gabriel > Fiamma?

 

[Zensum]

I was more referring to this:
"In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet..."

But yes, Astro in Hand will yield higher than any planet busting.

 

[XDragnoir]

I am not talking about Astro in Hand, i mean Gabriel's full power, this:

To begin with, he doubted the materials of the physical world would be enough to support the full capacity of an angel created by god. Even the Misha Kreutzev from Angel Fall had been in imperfect manifestation. If Misha tried to force out an output greater than the hypothesized amount, the physical body she was made of would explode emitting a massive amount of Telesma.
It would be like a planet exploding at the North Pole.
At the very least, all life would be annihilated on the northern half of the globe. It was possible that it would cause a major error in the planet’s orbital trajectory that would cause it to leave the solar system.

 

[Malox1696]

I don’t think Fiamma will instantly BFR Fiamme and the hand can be survived through immortality, and then the mind Manip and corruption (Both are above Fiamma’s resistance) should seal the deal.

mhhh ?
his resistance should be based on HR tho so it should be able to defend
and technically fiamma has 1 trick spell that once he realizes he is fighting a representation of an element basically is a 1 shoot, he can mess with the elements directly and corrupt it by changing it to water element (which is even its weakness on the profile), and i mean universally when i mean messing with the elements not just the one he is fighting

on how HR works, it targets automatically for defense for the most optimal one, for offense it just auto targets but by using "the strike that end everything" it always has the right power output to defeat his opponent (just defeat not always kill), it can be spammed too

btw before u ask why such a spell is not on the profile, is cause it's not an offensive spell, it's the spell that he used to get back his full power, check the weakness of fiamma section

 

[Malox1696]

Index Controller has plenty of spells. Like, presumably more than 103k of them. Presumably, it would be powered up due to Fiamma's power up as well. And fictional characters don't always act with optimal logic and instantaneous reasoning.
For that matter, we also don't know the requirements of the BFR. Maybe it takes time, maybe it requires direct physical contact. The technique is barely explained.

Talking about the controller, does it not have the st George sanctuary which is basically space manipulation to make it impossible to reach ?

 

[XDragnoir]

btw before u ask why such a spell is not on the profile, is cause it's not an offensive spell, it's the spell that he used to get back his full power, check the weakness of fiamma section

No, if something isn't in the profile, it can't be used, if you want it to be, a CRT would be needed, but when i tried to add it to his profile it was rejected.

 

[Malox1696]

No, if something isn't in the profile, it can't be used, if you want it to be, a CRT would be needed, but when i tried to add it to his profile it was rejected.

But is not even a combat spell tho, it is referenced on the profile and still falls under his Powers and Abilities section
it's just not mentioned in the Notable Attacks/Techniques: cause again is not a combat spell , it has no name, and was used once

"An odd sound rang out.

A starry sky spread out.

First yellow, then red, followed by blue, and lastly green.

On Fiamma’s signal, the oddly colored stars spread out across the dark night sky like veils being drawn. The Star of Bethlehem was a huge planetarium.

“Did you know?”

The stars were colors that would be absolutely impossible in nature. A complete amateur who knew almost nothing of magic should not have been able to analyze what they meant, but he understood in a very deep part of his existence. He understood that he was seeing the transparent true world. He understood that he was feeling the four elements having been returned to their proper places.

“Fire, water, wind, earth. Each of those four elements carries the leading edge of its type of power, but at the same time, using one element has a broader effect on the three other elements. That is why all large-scale ceremonies except practical battle ones use one of each symbolic weapon as opposed to just the symbolic weapon of the primary element. That is true even in fire ceremonies. In other words, my fire has always held the requirements needed to control all four elements. By controlling all four, I should gain a vast amount of power. …But that is all if the distortion in the lineup of the world’s elements did not exist.”

Fiamma continued speaking.

“Proper power cannot be perfectly used except for in a proper world.”

Something invisible exploded out from Fiamma. "

as u can see it has no name or anything it's not even an attack that's why it not added on the attacks section but still falls under his ability section

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, i know, that is way i think Fiamma's profile is heavily outdated, missing any mention to elemental manipulation (from the quote above), control over Gabriel (damn, he held control over Gabriel more time than he held Imagine Breaker/LPSAD, but for some reason it can't be added).

But you are wrong in two things:

1- not having a name or not being a combat spell isn't an excuse to not have something in a profile
2- even if you have the quote, it still can't be used here since it isn't in the profile

 

[Malox1696]

Yeah, i know, that is way i think Fiamma's profile is heavily outdated, missing any mention to elemental manipulation (from the quote above), control over Gabriel (damn, he held control over Gabriel more time than he held Imagine Breaker/LPSAD, but for some reason it can't be added).

But you are wrong in two things:

1- not having a name or not being a combat spell isn't an excuse to not have something in a profile
2- even if you have the quote, it still can't be used here since it isn't in the profile

Dude u might want to look at it again Powers and Abilities: Magic, Fire Manipulation,Energy Manipulation, Miracle Creation,| Limited Phase Manipulation, can recreate miracles found in Christianity like Summoning

it's there, he is technically using fire manipulation+magic+miracle or energy, not full elemental manipulation as u can see from the quote too but the result is the same "In other words, my fire has always held the requirements needed to control all four elements."

Summoning Gabriel is there for the second key (first key he can't summon it without using a vessel) but it's probaly not used cause it would make his profile tier 4 while is a 5 b and most fight would just be Gabriel vs another 4 b while he chills

Again IT IS on the profile just not on the techniques section cause it lacks a name and is just too niche to use in combat, just on the ability section

 

[XDragnoir]

What? If he can control the four elements it is elemental manipulation, it does not matter how he does it, if he is doing it, it needs to be in the profile. And what does miracle creation have to do with it?

It does not matter if can't do it on his own, he maintained control over Gabriel for a massive amount of time when compared to LPSAD, so it should be a key of it's own just like LPSAD is.

Lacking a name isn't a reason to not be there, being "too niche" isn't as well, if he has it, it should be there.

If you want, do a CRT, i will probably be in your said to add it to his profile, but for now? It's better to stop, it has already reached a point where it is probably derailment.

 

[Malox1696]

What? If he can control the four elements it is elemental manipulation, it does not matter how he does it, if he is doing it, it needs to be in the profile. And what does miracle creation have to do with it?

It does not matter if can't do it on his own, he maintained control over Gabriel for a massive amount of time when compared to LPSAD, so it should be a key of it's own just like LPSAD is.

Lacking a name isn't a reason to not be there, being "too niche" isn't as well, if he has it, it should be there.

As far as both rule and quote is accounted for, it is there, he is using fire manipulation and magic to control all the elements for the spell as it's explained in the quote , and magic does compel elements manipulation already alone

then ask for another key, it would literally just be Gabriel and fiamma profile fused but do what u want, for example https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Samuel_Liddell_MacGregor_Mathers does not have a key with Gabriel, it is just mentioned he can summon them

actually it is a reason, after all it's called Notable Attacks/Techniques: as along as the power is in the Powers and Abilities: section it's all fine, the other section is for specif stuff

 

[XDragnoir]

Having "magic" does not mean much, magic allows you to do anything, what the characters can actually do with it needs to be noted in the profile, like, i can clearly see something like "elemental manipulation via fire manipulation (his control over fire allows him to control the other 3 elements of water, earth and wind)".

I already tried, i literally did a small profile to show how i think Fiamma's profile should be, here.

 

[Malox1696]

Which https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:XDragnoir/Fiamma?oldid=6002378 completely lacks what u just said

btw again spell is too niche to be added on the notable attacks section, the spell is used by using magic and fire manipulation which are on the profile, by site rules all fine
rules
Notable Attacks/Techniques: A list of some abilities the character generally uses

edit: your profile is missing what u just said "elemental manipulation via fire manipulation (his control over fire allows him to control the other 3 elements of water, earth and wind)"

​

 

[XDragnoir]

Which completely lacks what u just said

What do you mean?