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Recently final fantasy vii has gone through some revisions for speed and ap. Several characters will be updated accordingly, and keys will be restructured to match. Due to the number of pages that will have to be changed, I will be dividing this project in to separate parts. This first part will be concentrated on summons and Kadaj from advent children, to make the current transition more feasible. This will be slightly long.

Kadaj

A minor addition to add to AP justifications.
Kadaj.full.21230.jpg


"Sephiroth was an incredibly powerful rival for Cloud in the game. We needed a villain just as powerful for this film, but maybe even more so given the short amount of time"

In the reunion files artbook for the film Advent Children, the director and staff mention the intent behind making Kadaj was to make a villain just as powerful as Sephiroth from the original game. I should note this does not contradict the current quote used from Kitase that explains Sephiroth was the strongest ff7 character in Advent Children, as that is referring to him after he revives using kadaj and jenova cells. In essence, kadaj should be comparable to endgame ff7 sephiroth, but inferior to AC sephiroth.

New addition to ap would be:
(Stated by Nomura to be comparable to Post Lifestream Sephiroth)


Summons


Attack Potency: Solar System level (Its alternate realm seems to be an analog of our Solar System, being large enough to contain a sun and at least two planets)

Bahamut Fury's ap justification does not work with current standards, so lets fix that.

Borrowing this section from the sandbox above:

Despite the lack of evidence that Summons create their dimensions, there actually is potential evidence that they sustain them.

More specifically, Zirconiade, the final boss of Before Crisis -Final Fantasy VII-.

A bit of history: The main conflict in that game was to stop the main antagonist from summoning Zirconiade, a Summon known as the World Burner that would eradicate all life on the Planet for it to return to the Lifestream, as some sort of reset button. Zirconiade’s Summon Materia has an issue though, it’s damaged. The reason is never explained why or how, but it’s explained the Materia is imperfect due to said damage. For this reason, Zirconiade cannot be summoned right away like other Summoned Beasts and needs to compensate for the imperfect Materia. Most of the game is a race between the villains and the heroes to get the four Support Materia that would make up for the damages of Zirconiade’s Materia, allowing to carry out the summoning despite its state. However, despite the summoning being successful once everything is gathered, despite, the process is still imperfect and Zirconiade lacks its full power. The main villain, Fuhito, the decides that if he can give Zirconiade its Summon Materia and the four Supporting Materia then the summoning would be complete, and it would attain its full power.

Now, two things happen here that are important for this revision proposal:

1. Before Fuhito can deliver the Materia to Zirconiade, he is defeated, and Zirconiade’s Materia is destroyed. Due to this, when Zirconiade is defeated, it is killed for real. A relevant point given that Summons cannot normally be killed in battle. As seen in Crisis Core and more or less explained in Hojo’s briefings for Zack’s missions, as long as the Summon Materia remains, the Summon will keep existing and can be called again, which happened with Ifrit, Bahamut and Bahamut Fury. All of them were defeated in battle and shown in cutscenes to be slain and explode into energy or flames, yet it was possible to later get their Materia and call them again. Zirconiade’s Materia being destroyed before the fight against it meant this immortality trick was no possible for it and its destruction was definitive. As further proof, once defeated, the Planet (which in-story is explained to be sentient) felt the danger of the loss and sent out the Jade Weapon to investigate who killed Zirconiade, who was an important part of the ecosystem.

2. Zirconiade, like other Summons, has a pocket dimension, but unlike most who take opponents to them, Zirconiade opens a gate or access that allows outsiders to enter its domain, which is how the Turks, the heroes of Before Crisis, could go fight it. And more importantly, once Zirconiade is killed, its pocket dimension collapses with her and said collapse would have killed the Turks inside had they not managed to miraculously escape. It has happened before that the Summon is defeated and their opponents are expelled from their dimension, which is what happened in Crisis Core, Sephiroth defeated Ifrit, later Zack took down Bahamut and Bahamut Fury and they just found themselves back in the normal world. The big difference, however, is those Summons were just defeated, their Materia were still around for them to come back, while Zirconiade was outright killed as its Materia was destroyed before its fight.

Here, here, and here, Incomplete Zirconiade explodes, destroying its dimension. Every Turk in Zirconiade's dimension survives.

The spaces belonging to each summon are also noted follows:
7c3517d576cff9d09452f089512b830c.png


Here, the beginning (upon summons, Bahamut drags Zack Fair into its own dimension)

Here, the beginning (upon summons, Ifrit drags Zack Fair into its own dimension)


If we accept the first scenario it would mean that Summons do sustain their pocket dimensions, as long as the Summon is still alive. If the Summon dies, the dimension is destroyed with it. If the Summon is simply defeated the dimension vanishes and the enemy is removed, but the place is not gone, just the being that brought the opponent cannot keep them there.

And this actually raises other possibility in regard to the Knights of the Round: if King Arthur openly destroys the dimension with his attacks, it is possible he knights could actually create or restore it.

As an additional support feat, for what it’s worth: when taking a look at the translations in the Ultimania Omega, it is confirmed in the description that Red XIII’s Stardust Ray creates a starry sky. More specifically, his accumulated magic power is what makes this possible:

Red_XIII_-_Stardust_Ray.jpg

Stardust Ray

If you hold it low and accumulate magical power, the area will suddenly become a starry sky.

Stardust appears as if to respond to the howl of Red XIII.

Countless stardust pours down like rain, damaging monsters.

Magical Power in this context is spirit energy, which I explain here:

Long story short, Spirit energy essentially works in verse as a Universal Energy System, which scales to physicality.

Essentially summons sustain and most likely make their spaces, via spiritual energy that scales to their physicality.

Via having a universal energy system, summons fulfill the criteria for these creation feats scaling to ap:

Through the zirconiade example above (realm immediately collapses with its destruction due to 0 spiritual being present), Summons fulfill the stabilization requirements:

Also for bahamut fury, its space is shown to have multiple stars, and we know the celestial bodies in its realm are real given its attack on the moon.
CZpTS4L.png


As such, Bahamut Fury should be changed to Multi Solar.


Telekinesis Calcs
We have 2 new calcs which were accepted that affect lifting strength for jenova and sephiroth, both for Class E:

telekinesis for supernova was accepted here:

Calc for jenova:

Just need to be applied to the pages.

Conclusion:
Kadaj gets a new ap justification

Summons create and sustain their realms, which complies with current standards for both to scale to ap. As a result, Bahamut Fury gets Multi Solar for ap.

two new accepted lifting strength calcs for Telekinesis for Jenova and Sephiroth, both Class E
 
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Tarta has updated his sandbox, so i will add the update here:

Evidence that Summons do sustain their dimensions:

As seen with Ifrit, Bahamut and Bahamut Fury in Crisis Core, they break the bounds between dimensions to open up theirs. While the cutscenes with Zack simply have a flash and then he finds himself inside the Summon’s realm, the CGI cinematics show this in good detail: Ifrit burns away the sky to reveal his infernal world, Bahamut emits a pulse of energy that breaks the sky, and in an inversion, Bahamut Fury is already inside his in the CGI cutscene, but in the story scene he cleaves the space itself with the horn in his head and breaches dimensions that way. This is in itself shows that they don’t really drag the enemies to their dimensions per-se, rather they bring their realms to the enemies. This actually does qualify for Spatial Manipulation, though not combat applicable, at least not this aspect.

When the Summon is destroyed the dimension is dispelled and their opponent find themselves back into the real world. This essentially happens the same way in the three cases: the Summon bursts into their element or energy once defeated and goes back into their Materia (though they are properly obtained to be used via Side-Missions, the briefings in those explain Zack retrieved the Materia after fighting them and handed them over to Shinra), and Zack finds himself back in the real world.

As long as their Materia remains, the Summon won’t die and can be Summoned again, essentially Reliant Immortality. However, while this prevents them from dying, they are still defeated. For this reason, it’s not enough to simply take down the Summon, it must be “deactivated” by destroying it. Ifrit is an example of this, Zack took him out briefly and he was still trapped inside Ifrit’s realm and wasn’t able to get out until Sephiroth stepped in and struck Ifrit down.

Another case that doesn’t happen in Crisis Core is Zirconiade in Before Crisis. Zirconiade, a Summon called the World Burner, once called created a gate to access its dimension above Midgar that allowed the Turks to go to fight it. Inside there was a massive dimension that resembled the Planet’s Core from the original game.

Zirconiade had a peculiar situation, her Materia was damaged, so it couldn’t be used to Summon her. A workaround for this was found, which is the main quest of the game: four support Materia could be used to compensate for the damaged state of the Summon Materia, however this would still would not be enough for Zirconiade to have its full power. Before the final battle with Zirconiade itself, its Summon Materia was destroyed during a fight, so Zirconiade lost the means for its Reliant Immortality. Thus, when Zirconiade was destroyed in the battle against the Player Turk, it was killed of for good having no means to return.

Like in other cases, this caused its realm to disappear. Unlike other Summons, the Player Turk wasn’t simply returned to the real world, Zirconiade’s dimension started to distort and collapse violently. This ends with a massive blast and shockwave that seemingly kills the Player Turk (however, they turn up alive and well later on), however, it’s unclear if this was Zirconiade itself falling apart or it was the destruction of the dimension.

This in itself shows that Summons do at the very least bring forth their dimension rather than drag targets and the dimensions themselves remain active because of the Summon’s power. If the Summon is no longer active, the power source for the dimension is essentially cutoff and this disappears.

While it could be argued that the Summons simply drag the enemy and this is expelled once the Summon is gone, this is not what is quite shown in the story events. No force seems to affect Zack as much as the world around him changes (an explicit case of transporting the enemy would be the Knights of the Round, whom we see create a gate between dimensions and the Ultimania explains a door is opened). In the Player Turk case, their life wouldn’t have been endangered by the destruction of Zirconiade if they could have been just expelled from Zirconiade’s dimension, instead the Player Turk was stuck in the place until the dimension was gone, almost killed by the destruction of either Zirconiade or its dimension.

Evidence that Summons do create their dimensions:

For what we have so far, we can tell Summons bring forth their dimension, but no evidence of this being created yet. However, the Knights of the Round do give credence to the possibility that the Summons actually do create their realms or at least do so every time it’s dispelled for one reason or another.

As we know so far, the Knights of the Round finish with King Arthur destroying his dimension with a swing of the Excalibur. Here comes a contradiction if we stick to the idea that Summons simply call forth their dimension: if their realm is a single one that has always existed and they simply bring it around the enemy or dispel it or expel the enemy from it, there would be no explanation on why the Knights of the Round seem to be able to destroy it and then send the enemy towards their realm every time they are summoned, aside the fact they can create it again when they need to. It could be said that Summons have more than one personal dimension, but there’s no evidence of that, nothing in the setting or side-materials point out the existence of multiple dimensions for Summons and if anything the description in the Complete Keyword collection mentions that each Summon has a single realm with them, and the idea or parallel dimension and timelines are explicitly something that was created during the events of the Remake after the defeat of the Whisper Harbinger and that affects the universe as a whole. This would also apply to other ideas, such as that only the Knights of the Round can create dimensions or what they do doesn’t apply to any other Summons. There’s no evidence of that either, and the unique traits of them, such as their power or openly destroying their dimension, is for what we can see or have proof in guidebooks. (If anything, all of this kinda comes as like the “Supernova is an illusion” dismissal)

A minor case of this would be Typhon, who has a planet sized realm which, through his Disintegration move, he flips upside down and causes it to collapse into the sky, creating mass devastation. When Summoned again the Planet is right back like it was and he can use the move again. Though here, you can be pickier and argue that he may bring his enemies to a different planet each time. But there is no real evidence of that either and we do not even know how large his dimension is.

Additional back-up feats of starry sky creation:

There are other instances of a starry dimension being created. First, Red XIII’s Stardust Ray Limit Break, a rather explicit one, and Sephiroth’s Supernova, a more implied one. These are relevant for different reasons:

a. Red XIII’s Stardust Ray Limit Break:

Red XIII’s Stardust Ray animation shows a starry sky appearing as he howls before stardurst falls on the opponent dealing damage multiple times. The Ultimania Omega description of the move openly confirms that this is a starry sky created by Red’s magical power.

Red XIII – Stardust Ray – Ultimania Omega



Original TextGoogle TranslationYandex Translation
リミットレベル 2
LIMIT LEVEL
上級技

スターダストレイ

低くかまえて魔力をためると、あたりはいつの間にか星空に。

レッドXIIIの遠吠えに応えるかのように、星くずが出現。

無数の星くずは雨のように降りそそぎ、モンスターにダメージを与える。
Limit level 2
LIMIT LEVEL
Advanced skill

Stardust Ray

If you hold it low and accumulate magical power, the area will suddenly become a starry sky.

Stardust appears as if to respond to the howl of Red XIII.

Countless stardust pours down like rain, damaging monsters.
Limit Level 2
LIMIT LEVEL
Advanced skills

Stardust Tray

If you hold it low and save the magical power, it will be in the starry sky before you know it.

Stardust appears as if responding to the howl of Red XII.

Countless stardust descend like rain, causing damage to monsters.


This is pretty openly a 4-A creation feat. Furthermore, Stardust Ray is just his fourth Limit Break, second in Level 2, which you can easily have before several key moments of the game, such as the Temple of the Ancients before Aerith leaves, the Forbidden Capital before she’s down air’d or the Whirlwind Maze before the events of Meteorfall begin.

What I want to connect here is that this feat is not an endgame only feat, is relatively early on that can be scaled to Crisis Core era characters, as (unless you completely neglect using Red at all), it will be an available Limit Break by the time you have Bahamut Zero and comparable Summons who scale to Bahamut SIN and, by extension, to Zack and other prequel characters.

b. Sephiroth’s Supernova:

Sephy strikes again. Now, the Supernova is redundant for scaling in itself as the top tiers are well above 4-A and Sephiroth’s dimension is much larger than a starry one. And, well, the Supernova does not destroy the entirety of it, rather is a localized nuke on the Solar System. What is important here is how it ties in the idea explained above that Summons and personal dimensions are actually created and not simply brought forth and left at that. Essentially, the whole animation of the Supernova shows the Solar System being destroyed and if Sephiroth needs to use it again (which he can do over and over in a single battle) it will show the Solar System once again to be destroyed. Just like the case with King Arthur, for him to destroy the same thing repeatedly Sephiroth would have to create it over and over, as there is no real evidence of several dimensions available to him.

It can be argued to be graphical limitations, and that is true in a way (showing a different variant with another setting for the same move is a waste of resources, especially back in 1997 in the early experimental stage of 3D for Square), the Ultimanias do state that what the Supernova destroys is the Solar System and the dimensional space in it. And just like the Knights of the Round, it’s unlikely that there is simply several parallel Solar Systems for Sephiroth to use his best move (aside no evidence of it), for similar reasons.
 
oh just in case if anyone question if summons even have spiritual energy, all life period has spiritual energy:

20210317_143529.jpg

20210404_151710.jpg


Spiritual energy in mass is so potent it can birth new universes.
 
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