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Recently final fantasy vii has gone through some revisions for speed and ap. Several characters will be updated accordingly, and keys will be restructured to match. Due to the number of pages that will have to be changed, I will be dividing this project in to separate parts. This first part will be concentrated on summons and Kadaj from advent children, to make the current transition more feasible. This will be slightly long.
Kadaj
A minor addition to add to AP justifications.
"Sephiroth was an incredibly powerful rival for Cloud in the game. We needed a villain just as powerful for this film, but maybe even more so given the short amount of time"
In the reunion files artbook for the film Advent Children, the director and staff mention the intent behind making Kadaj was to make a villain just as powerful as Sephiroth from the original game. I should note this does not contradict the current quote used from Kitase that explains Sephiroth was the strongest ff7 character in Advent Children, as that is referring to him after he revives using kadaj and jenova cells. In essence, kadaj should be comparable to endgame ff7 sephiroth, but inferior to AC sephiroth.
New addition to ap would be:
(Stated by Nomura to be comparable to Post Lifestream Sephiroth)
Summons
Bahamut Fury's ap justification does not work with current standards, so lets fix that.
Borrowing this section from the sandbox above:
Despite the lack of evidence that Summons create their dimensions, there actually is potential evidence that they sustain them.
More specifically, Zirconiade, the final boss of Before Crisis -Final Fantasy VII-.
A bit of history: The main conflict in that game was to stop the main antagonist from summoning Zirconiade, a Summon known as the World Burner that would eradicate all life on the Planet for it to return to the Lifestream, as some sort of reset button. Zirconiade’s Summon Materia has an issue though, it’s damaged. The reason is never explained why or how, but it’s explained the Materia is imperfect due to said damage. For this reason, Zirconiade cannot be summoned right away like other Summoned Beasts and needs to compensate for the imperfect Materia. Most of the game is a race between the villains and the heroes to get the four Support Materia that would make up for the damages of Zirconiade’s Materia, allowing to carry out the summoning despite its state. However, despite the summoning being successful once everything is gathered, despite, the process is still imperfect and Zirconiade lacks its full power. The main villain, Fuhito, the decides that if he can give Zirconiade its Summon Materia and the four Supporting Materia then the summoning would be complete, and it would attain its full power.
Now, two things happen here that are important for this revision proposal:
1. Before Fuhito can deliver the Materia to Zirconiade, he is defeated, and Zirconiade’s Materia is destroyed. Due to this, when Zirconiade is defeated, it is killed for real. A relevant point given that Summons cannot normally be killed in battle. As seen in Crisis Core and more or less explained in Hojo’s briefings for Zack’s missions, as long as the Summon Materia remains, the Summon will keep existing and can be called again, which happened with Ifrit, Bahamut and Bahamut Fury. All of them were defeated in battle and shown in cutscenes to be slain and explode into energy or flames, yet it was possible to later get their Materia and call them again. Zirconiade’s Materia being destroyed before the fight against it meant this immortality trick was no possible for it and its destruction was definitive. As further proof, once defeated, the Planet (which in-story is explained to be sentient) felt the danger of the loss and sent out the Jade Weapon to investigate who killed Zirconiade, who was an important part of the ecosystem.
2. Zirconiade, like other Summons, has a pocket dimension, but unlike most who take opponents to them, Zirconiade opens a gate or access that allows outsiders to enter its domain, which is how the Turks, the heroes of Before Crisis, could go fight it. And more importantly, once Zirconiade is killed, its pocket dimension collapses with her and said collapse would have killed the Turks inside had they not managed to miraculously escape. It has happened before that the Summon is defeated and their opponents are expelled from their dimension, which is what happened in Crisis Core, Sephiroth defeated Ifrit, later Zack took down Bahamut and Bahamut Fury and they just found themselves back in the normal world. The big difference, however, is those Summons were just defeated, their Materia were still around for them to come back, while Zirconiade was outright killed as its Materia was destroyed before its fight.
Here, here, and here, Incomplete Zirconiade explodes, destroying its dimension. Every Turk in Zirconiade's dimension survives.
The spaces belonging to each summon are also noted follows:
Here, the beginning (upon summons, Bahamut drags Zack Fair into its own dimension)
Here, the beginning (upon summons, Ifrit drags Zack Fair into its own dimension)
If we accept the first scenario it would mean that Summons do sustain their pocket dimensions, as long as the Summon is still alive. If the Summon dies, the dimension is destroyed with it. If the Summon is simply defeated the dimension vanishes and the enemy is removed, but the place is not gone, just the being that brought the opponent cannot keep them there.
And this actually raises other possibility in regard to the Knights of the Round: if King Arthur openly destroys the dimension with his attacks, it is possible he knights could actually create or restore it.
As an additional support feat, for what it’s worth: when taking a look at the translations in the Ultimania Omega, it is confirmed in the description that Red XIII’s Stardust Ray creates a starry sky. More specifically, his accumulated magic power is what makes this possible:
Stardust Ray
If you hold it low and accumulate magical power, the area will suddenly become a starry sky.
Stardust appears as if to respond to the howl of Red XIII.
Countless stardust pours down like rain, damaging monsters.
Magical Power in this context is spirit energy, which I explain here:
Long story short, Spirit energy essentially works in verse as a Universal Energy System, which scales to physicality.
Essentially summons sustain and most likely make their spaces, via spiritual energy that scales to their physicality.
Via having a universal energy system, summons fulfill the criteria for these creation feats scaling to ap:
Through the zirconiade example above (realm immediately collapses with its destruction due to 0 spiritual being present), Summons fulfill the stabilization requirements:
Also for bahamut fury, its space is shown to have multiple stars, and we know the celestial bodies in its realm are real given its attack on the moon.
As such, Bahamut Fury should be changed to Multi Solar.
Telekinesis Calcs
We have 2 new calcs which were accepted that affect lifting strength for jenova and sephiroth, both for Class E:
telekinesis for supernova was accepted here:
Calc for jenova:
Just need to be applied to the pages.
Conclusion:
Kadaj gets a new ap justification
Summons create and sustain their realms, which complies with current standards for both to scale to ap. As a result, Bahamut Fury gets Multi Solar for ap.
two new accepted lifting strength calcs for Telekinesis for Jenova and Sephiroth, both Class E
Kadaj
A minor addition to add to AP justifications.
"Sephiroth was an incredibly powerful rival for Cloud in the game. We needed a villain just as powerful for this film, but maybe even more so given the short amount of time"
In the reunion files artbook for the film Advent Children, the director and staff mention the intent behind making Kadaj was to make a villain just as powerful as Sephiroth from the original game. I should note this does not contradict the current quote used from Kitase that explains Sephiroth was the strongest ff7 character in Advent Children, as that is referring to him after he revives using kadaj and jenova cells. In essence, kadaj should be comparable to endgame ff7 sephiroth, but inferior to AC sephiroth.
New addition to ap would be:
Kadaj
Kadaj, leader of the Remnants of Sephiroth and the personification of his insane cruelty, is the main antagonist of the novel Final Fantasy VII The Kids Are Alright: A Turks Side Story and the secondary antagonist of Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children. Created as an extension of Sephiroth's will...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Summons
TartaChocholate/sandbox
vsbattles.fandom.com
Bahamut Fury
Bahamut Fury is a Summon that appears in Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII and is one of Bahamut's many evolved forms or "Bahamut Strain" as called by Professor Hojo, being above Neo Bahamut and Bahamut ZERO. Following the events of his first mission as a SOLDIER 1st Class, Zack Fair received a...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Attack Potency: Solar System level (Its alternate realm seems to be an analog of our Solar System, being large enough to contain a sun and at least two planets)
Bahamut Fury's ap justification does not work with current standards, so lets fix that.
Borrowing this section from the sandbox above:
Despite the lack of evidence that Summons create their dimensions, there actually is potential evidence that they sustain them.
More specifically, Zirconiade, the final boss of Before Crisis -Final Fantasy VII-.
A bit of history: The main conflict in that game was to stop the main antagonist from summoning Zirconiade, a Summon known as the World Burner that would eradicate all life on the Planet for it to return to the Lifestream, as some sort of reset button. Zirconiade’s Summon Materia has an issue though, it’s damaged. The reason is never explained why or how, but it’s explained the Materia is imperfect due to said damage. For this reason, Zirconiade cannot be summoned right away like other Summoned Beasts and needs to compensate for the imperfect Materia. Most of the game is a race between the villains and the heroes to get the four Support Materia that would make up for the damages of Zirconiade’s Materia, allowing to carry out the summoning despite its state. However, despite the summoning being successful once everything is gathered, despite, the process is still imperfect and Zirconiade lacks its full power. The main villain, Fuhito, the decides that if he can give Zirconiade its Summon Materia and the four Supporting Materia then the summoning would be complete, and it would attain its full power.
Now, two things happen here that are important for this revision proposal:
1. Before Fuhito can deliver the Materia to Zirconiade, he is defeated, and Zirconiade’s Materia is destroyed. Due to this, when Zirconiade is defeated, it is killed for real. A relevant point given that Summons cannot normally be killed in battle. As seen in Crisis Core and more or less explained in Hojo’s briefings for Zack’s missions, as long as the Summon Materia remains, the Summon will keep existing and can be called again, which happened with Ifrit, Bahamut and Bahamut Fury. All of them were defeated in battle and shown in cutscenes to be slain and explode into energy or flames, yet it was possible to later get their Materia and call them again. Zirconiade’s Materia being destroyed before the fight against it meant this immortality trick was no possible for it and its destruction was definitive. As further proof, once defeated, the Planet (which in-story is explained to be sentient) felt the danger of the loss and sent out the Jade Weapon to investigate who killed Zirconiade, who was an important part of the ecosystem.
2. Zirconiade, like other Summons, has a pocket dimension, but unlike most who take opponents to them, Zirconiade opens a gate or access that allows outsiders to enter its domain, which is how the Turks, the heroes of Before Crisis, could go fight it. And more importantly, once Zirconiade is killed, its pocket dimension collapses with her and said collapse would have killed the Turks inside had they not managed to miraculously escape. It has happened before that the Summon is defeated and their opponents are expelled from their dimension, which is what happened in Crisis Core, Sephiroth defeated Ifrit, later Zack took down Bahamut and Bahamut Fury and they just found themselves back in the normal world. The big difference, however, is those Summons were just defeated, their Materia were still around for them to come back, while Zirconiade was outright killed as its Materia was destroyed before its fight.
Here, here, and here, Incomplete Zirconiade explodes, destroying its dimension. Every Turk in Zirconiade's dimension survives.
The spaces belonging to each summon are also noted follows:
Here, the beginning (upon summons, Bahamut drags Zack Fair into its own dimension)
Here, the beginning (upon summons, Ifrit drags Zack Fair into its own dimension)
If we accept the first scenario it would mean that Summons do sustain their pocket dimensions, as long as the Summon is still alive. If the Summon dies, the dimension is destroyed with it. If the Summon is simply defeated the dimension vanishes and the enemy is removed, but the place is not gone, just the being that brought the opponent cannot keep them there.
And this actually raises other possibility in regard to the Knights of the Round: if King Arthur openly destroys the dimension with his attacks, it is possible he knights could actually create or restore it.
As an additional support feat, for what it’s worth: when taking a look at the translations in the Ultimania Omega, it is confirmed in the description that Red XIII’s Stardust Ray creates a starry sky. More specifically, his accumulated magic power is what makes this possible:
Stardust Ray
If you hold it low and accumulate magical power, the area will suddenly become a starry sky.
Stardust appears as if to respond to the howl of Red XIII.
Countless stardust pours down like rain, damaging monsters.
Magical Power in this context is spirit energy, which I explain here:
Will and Emotions in FF7
vsbattles.fandom.com
Long story short, Spirit energy essentially works in verse as a Universal Energy System, which scales to physicality.
Essentially summons sustain and most likely make their spaces, via spiritual energy that scales to their physicality.
Via having a universal energy system, summons fulfill the criteria for these creation feats scaling to ap:
Creation Feats
Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Through the zirconiade example above (realm immediately collapses with its destruction due to 0 spiritual being present), Summons fulfill the stabilization requirements:
Stabilization Feats
This is a type of feat where a character's existence, energy, presence, or any given factor from them sustains a structure on any given scale. And through their sustenance, their statistics are subsequently tiered to being at the level of power that is relative to the given scale of the...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Also for bahamut fury, its space is shown to have multiple stars, and we know the celestial bodies in its realm are real given its attack on the moon.
As such, Bahamut Fury should be changed to Multi Solar.
Telekinesis Calcs
We have 2 new calcs which were accepted that affect lifting strength for jenova and sephiroth, both for Class E:
Final Fantasy 7: Supernova Comet Mass
vsbattles.fandom.com
telekinesis for supernova was accepted here:
Calc for jenova:
FFVII - The Strength of Jenova's Telekinesis
vsbattles.fandom.com
Just need to be applied to the pages.
Conclusion:
Kadaj gets a new ap justification
Summons create and sustain their realms, which complies with current standards for both to scale to ap. As a result, Bahamut Fury gets Multi Solar for ap.
two new accepted lifting strength calcs for Telekinesis for Jenova and Sephiroth, both Class E
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