Fate/Kaleid Downgrades

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ah, what a mess. Starting a debate about fate will be the death of me, but still.

Illyasviel von Einzberg:
Tiering:
The profile should note she relies hard on Class Cards and Ruby for that tier, and that without she isn't anything special. That's important since there are points even in the story where she is separated from them. This applies to all class card users, sans Shirou.

Now... scaling to Excalibur or Ea are also very questionable.
Noble Phantasms become weaker with Class Cards just as Servant parameters - Gae Bolg's range was downgraded, Delusional Illusion creates half the copies, Godhand can only block C rank and has fourth the resurrections (not that it can deploy them, since dying ejects the Class Card), etc. Excalibur and Belleaprhon falling by two ranks would not be where we currently scale Low 6-B NPs anymore.

And Ea... well, first, reasons why it wouldn't be Low 1-C: First, if Godhand couldn't be properly replicated, assuming Ea was anywhere near the original is ridiculous.
Beyond that, its power output isn't set, and depends on how it is used. This is important because the one using it was half of Gilgamesh, eroded by the grail mud and only half-incarnated. When Illya overpowered it, he remarked about his own limitations, not her power.
And the idea that turning her body into a massive Magic Circuit is enough to jump to tier 1, is baffling from a story perspective. Why didn't she ever use the tier 1 ability instead of waving around a downgraded tier 6 sword, even when the world was ending? In-fact, it's remarked later on that even with Ruby's help, she cannot possibly achieve something on the level of True Magic like proper time travel, and Ea is very much at the level of True Magic.

Now, the reasons given on the profile to say it is tier 1 are that it broke through the mirror dimension - a pocket reality of unspecified size, but we see visible borders in them like with Medusa's pocket world, where only the school was encapsulated - and that a maddened Gilgamesh whose mind was eroded to the point of meaninglessly seeking the Holy Grail claimed he'd blow away her World. If the way I presented it didn't make my opinion clear, I simply don't believe that Gilgamesh is reliable even if we took his claim of destroying the world at face value.

Abilities:
Time Travel, she needs Tanaka to physically come with her to do that, and Gilgamesh as navigation. Ruby alone is just giving an endless amount of magical energy to fuel the trip, Illya and the wand can't possibly go about time travel on their own.

Resurrection, class cards are ejected upon death, so despite Godhand being able to theoretically resurrect her a few times, it is not applicable in practice.

Julian Ainsworth:
Tiering:
The profile ought to note that his physical stats are only Servant level through Mana Burst and/or Class Cards, and that he doesn't use Class Cards normally.

Abilities:
Summoning should be corrected, he doesn't summon "all the world's evils", and several characters touch the mud without being negatively affected. Pandora stores failed possibilities, not evil.

Immorality, he should get Type 4 and another that I'll note after this. If his container is killed, he needs to reincarnate in another body by possessing his descendants, or something connected to their magic circuits.

Now, finally, High-Godly regeneration. That is just not correct in any way, I don't understand how it passed when there were physical remains from which he recovered.

His immortality works as the following: He stores his information in the pithos of Pandora. Through magic circuits, he overwrites the target - being his descendants or, as with the last body he took, the giant made of mud - with his own information that is stored in there. Even if he does this, he is just projecting that information on the individual, as he cannot remove anything from the pithos, that's what the whole plot is about.

The origin bullet didn't destroy his body, nor his concept. Kiritsigu's Origin Bullets tear and then reconnect magic circuits incorrectly, making the target unable to use said circuits. Kayneth wasn't conceptually erased from existence when hit with them. This is why, as soon as Julian's magic circuits were thorn by the bullet, Darius was unable to possess him anymore.

But he still resurrected, I hear the voices in my head say, how did he do that? Earlier in the fight, Julian created massive thorns out of the pithos' mud that became extensions of his magic circuits. These extensions were not destroyed by the origin bullet, and Darius was able to possess a giant made of the mud through the thorns, and the characters go on to explain that just like a plant can survive if its roots are cut, so did Darius as well.

Now, do you see the problem here? High-Godly regeneration is "the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence". He still had physical remains, which automatically rules out High-Godly before I point out that his concept still exists in the pithos. We've no reason to assume his mind and soul were negatively affected either, for the matter. He just lost connection with the one he was possessing, and connected to another. Should my phone get High-Godly regeneration because I called someone, their phone broke, so I called someone else?

He doesn't have regeneration at all, he has Type 9 immortality, and Possession.

Shirou Emiya:
Stamina, remove the whole grail war sections, it was due to Miyu giving him an unlimited amount of energy.

Shinji Matou:
Where's that durability negation from? He used his NP on a Sakura with no Class Card, there's no reason to assume durability negation. Was there a statement I missed or what?

Beatrice Flowerchild:
Resurrection, wasn't the core blocking Bazett's attack a very specific power interaction? I don't believe she'd be able to recover from having her head cut off or her heart gauged out.

And Unknown in tier seems needless, we see Beatrice take the bolts of lighting from her Ragnarok without dying, there's little reason to think it has more notable raw power. It just makes memories into lighting.

Angelica Ainsworth:
As above, I don't believe her Ea is comparable to the original.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Scans?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I can go over them, when I get to uploud them to imgur, though I'm saying things should not apply rather than that they should apply, so burden of proof still goes to prove the positive.

Some stuff is also already accepted on the profiles, like NPs falling whole ranks.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Tiering:
The profile should note she relies hard on Class Cards and Ruby for that tier, and that without she isn't anything special. That's important since there are points even in the story where she is separated from them. This applies to all class card users, sans Shirou.

Now... scaling to Excalibur or Ea are also very questionable.
Noble Phantasms become weaker with Class Cards just as Servant parameters - Gae Bolg's range was downgraded, Delusional Illusion creates half the copies, Godhand can only block C rank and has fourth the resurrections (not that it can deploy them, since dying ejects the Class Card), etc. Excalibur and Belleaprhon falling by two ranks would not be where we currently scale Low 6-B NPs anymore.

I'm fine with this.

And Ea... well, first, reasons why it wouldn't be Low 1-C: First, if Godhand couldn't be properly replicated, assuming Ea was anywhere near the original is ridiculous.
Beyond that, its power output isn't set, and depends on how it is used. This is important because the one using it was half of Gilgamesh, eroded by the grail mud and only half-incarnated. When Illya overpowered it, he remarked about his own limitations, not her power.
And the idea that turning her body into a massive Magic Circuit is enough to jump to tier 1, is baffling from a story perspective. Why didn't she ever use the tier 1 ability instead of waving around a downgraded tier 6 sword, even when the world was ending? In-fact, it's remarked later on that even with Ruby's help, she cannot possibly achieve something on the level of True Magic like proper time travel, and Ea is very much at the level of True Magic.

Now, the reasons given on the profile to say it is tier 1 are that it broke through the mirror dimension - a pocket reality of unspecified size, but we see visible borders in them like with Medusa's pocket world, where only the school was encapsulated - and that a maddened Gilgamesh whose mind was eroded to the point of meaninglessly seeking the Holy Grail claimed he'd blow away her World. If the way I presented it didn't make my opinion clear, I simply don't believe that Gilgamesh is reliable even if we took his claim of destroying the world at face value.

No one said that Child Gil's EA in Kaleid was so weak compared to the original, even so, it was still stated to be capable of destroying the world, so EA should still be tier 1 with valid reasons.

Time Travel, she needs Tanaka to physically come with her to do that, and Gilgamesh as navigation. Ruby alone is just giving an endless amount of magical energy to fuel the trip, Illya and the wand can't possibly go about time travel on their own.

it should be noted in the Weakness section, there is no need to remove that ability.

The profile ought to note that his physical stats are only Servant level through Mana Burst and/or Class Cards, and that he doesn't use Class Cards normally.

He originally had all the Class Cards.

Summoning should be corrected, he doesn't summon "all the world's evils", and several characters touch the mud without being negatively affected. Pandora stores failed possibilities, not evil.

Well, yeah, Summoning should refer to the monsters that are summoned when the mud begins to cover the world. All magus have basic resistance tho. The mud actually have negative effect, pandora mud has corrosive properties, it can even penetrate spatial manip, moreover it's stated to swallow all concepts.

Immorality, he should get Type 4 and another that I'll note after this. If his container is killed, he needs to reincarnate in another body by possessing his descendants, or something connected to their magic circuits.

Fine.

Now, finally, High-Godly regeneration. That is just not correct in any way, I don't understand how it passed when there were physical remains from which he recovered.

His immortality works as the following: He stores his information in the pithos of Pandora. Through magic circuits, he overwrites the target - being his descendants or, as with the last body he took, the giant made of mud - with his own information that is stored in there. Even if he does this, he is just projecting that information on the individual, as he cannot remove anything from the pithos, that's what the whole plot is about.

The origin bullet didn't destroy his body, nor his concept. Kiritsigu's Origin Bullets tear and then reconnect magic circuits incorrectly, making the target unable to use said circuits. Kayneth wasn't conceptually erased from existence when hit with them. This is why, as soon as Julian's magic circuits were thorn by the bullet, Darius was unable to possess him anymore.

But he still resurrected, I hear the voices in my head say, how did he do that? Earlier in the fight, Julian created massive thorns out of the pithos' mud that became extensions of his magic circuits. These extensions were not destroyed by the origin bullet, and Darius was able to possess a giant made of the mud through the thorns, and the characters go on to explain that just like a plant can survive if its roots are cut, so did Darius as well.

Now, do you see the problem here? High-Godly regeneration is "the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence". He still had physical remains, which automatically rules out High-Godly before I point out that his concept still exists in the pithos. We've no reason to assume his mind and soul were negatively affected either, for the matter. He just lost connection with the one he was possessing, and connected to another. Should my phone get High-Godly regeneration because I called someone, their phone broke, so I called someone else?

I'm fine with this, though the fact that he regenerated the concept should be listed with immo 4 explanation, because it's still a legitimate feat.

Or maybe it's Conceptual Manipulation because it can regenerate the concept?

He doesn't have regeneration at all, he has Type 9 immortality, and Possession.

Looks good.

Shirou Emiya:
Stamina, remove the whole grail war sections, it was due to Miyu giving him an unlimited amount of energy.

Shinji Matou:
Where's that durability negation from? He used his NP on a Sakura with no Class Card, there's no reason to assume durability negation. Was there a statement I missed or what?

Fine.

Beatrice Flowerchild:
Resurrection, wasn't the core blocking Bazett's attack a very specific power interaction? I don't believe she'd be able to recover from having her head cut off or her heart gauged out.

it seems fine, though it should be listed as a conceptual defense on her profile?

Angelica Ainsworth:
As above, I don't believe her Ea is comparable to the original.

I'm fine if it's just Angelica.

Gil should be far superior.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Ah, what a mess. Starting a debate about fate will be the death of me, but still.

Illyasviel von Einzberg:
Tiering:
The profile should note she relies hard on Class Cards and Ruby for that tier, and that without she isn't anything special. That's important since there are points even in the story where she is separated from them. This applies to all class card users, sans Shirou.

No, this wouldn't really make sense. The amount of time she does quite literally anything without Ruby combat wise is so low it doesn't really justify having a key, it'd be making a key just to have an arbitrary lower AP, although she'd still keep the speed because she's reacted to servants and such without it.

However there's also an argument to be made that even her base form scales to this servant/class card tier, as even in base she pulls off some tricks with the assassin card (it kicks her to base when she uses the decoy) including smacking Gil so hard his head moves, and a mark is left on his face since she seemingly broke through his magical energy armor (the same magical energy that the shadow servant form had. Which was an order of magnitude more than Salter's)

Now... scaling to Excalibur or Ea are also very questionable.
Noble Phantasms become weaker with Class Cards just as Servant parameters - Gae Bolg's range was downgraded, Delusional Illusion creates half the copies, Godhand can only block C rank and has fourth the resurrections (not that it can deploy them, since dying ejects the Class Card), etc. Excalibur and Belleaprhon falling by two ranks would not be where we currently scale Low 6-B NPs anymore.

This is incorrect, we actually see that according to mats, Excalibur is the same rank

Excalibur: Promised Sword of Victory: A++
The pinnacle of the "Holy Sword" category. Owner's magical energy is converted to light, increasing it's momentum via convergence and acceleration to it's utmost limits before releasing it in one slash. It is said to reach the class of Divine Spirits. Because it is an amplifier that converts the owner's magical energy, when blackened Saber used this Holy Sword, it was black as well.

So it very clearly scales, this is the case with Gae Bolg as well, another NP you mentioned. It maintains its B rank when used by Cu, or used with the class Card, and Bellerophon maintains its A+ rank as well. The only NP to receive a rank down to my knowledge is actually God Hand, so there's no issue with scaling the AP of these NPs

And Ea... well, first, reasons why it wouldn't be Low 1-C: First, if Godhand couldn't be properly replicated, assuming Ea was anywhere near the original is ridiculous.
Beyond that, its power output isn't set, and depends on how it is used. This is important because the one using it was half of Gilgamesh, eroded by the grail mud and only half-incarnated. When Illya overpowered it, he remarked about his own limitations, not her power.
And the idea that turning her body into a massive Magic Circuit is enough to jump to tier 1, is baffling from a story perspective. Why didn't she ever use the tier 1 ability instead of waving around a downgraded tier 6 sword, even when the world was ending? In-fact, it's remarked later on that even with Ruby's help, she cannot possibly achieve something on the level of True Magic like proper time travel, and Ea is very much at the level of True Magic.

This entire section is just horrid reasoning. "Godhand was deranked so Ea must suck now too" when no other NP is ranked down powerwise

"Why didn't she ever use the tier 1 ability when the world was ending" perhaps, just perhaps because it takes two kaleidoscope wands to activate, which she almost never has access to, and also quite literally was killing her for the very short time she had it activated. From the second she gets the two wands, to the moment the fight finally ends, everyone is remarking on how Illya is quite literally going to die from using Zwei form.

Now, the reasons given on the profile to say it is tier 1 are that it broke through the mirror dimension - a pocket reality of unspecified size, but we see visible borders in them like with Medusa's pocket world, where only the school was encapsulated - and that a maddened Gilgamesh whose mind was eroded to the point of meaninglessly seeking the Holy Grail claimed he'd blow away her World. If the way I presented it didn't make my opinion clear, I simply don't believe that Gilgamesh is reliable even if we took his claim of destroying the world at face value.

This is incorrect, the Gil that mentioned it blowing away the world wasn't maddened, in fact both in that and the previous chapter, we see him having perfectly coherent conversations. Ko-Gil was mentally sound, and not only did he say he would destroy the world with Ea, he also mentions it literally created the world. There's no reason to really assume his word can't be taken as true because Ko-Gil also isn't a braggart or anything (a noted difference between him and Adult Gil in literally every piece of Fate media), at this point hadn't told a single lie, and is entirely mentally sound. So despite the "kid Gil and Angelica's use is weaker than Adult Gil's" thing, it's pretty clearly still in the same world destroying/making ballpark.

Illya had to use two wands that had infinite mana via the second magic, and nearly die just to beat it, it's not like she just pulled a Shirou and turned a small portion of her nerves into circuits and suddenly matched Ea.

Abilities:
Time Travel, she needs Tanaka to physically come with her to do that, and Gilgamesh as navigation. Ruby alone is just giving an endless amount of magical energy to fuel the trip, Illya and the wand can't possibly go about time travel on their own.

This is correct yeah

Resurrection, class cards are ejected upon death, so despite Godhand being able to theoretically resurrect her a few times, it is not applicable in practice.

I mean, it does resurrect, it just ejects afterwards according to Hiroyama's blog (I think that's where it was), so it's like 1 resurrection per install or something dumb, so it's technically right but really bad

Julian Ainsworth:
Tiering:
The profile ought to note that his physical stats are only Servant level through Mana Burst and/or Class Cards, and that he doesn't use Class Cards normally.

There's no reason to really assume all his stuff is only with mana burst, no, it's in fact never mentioned as far as I know, not when he catches Excalibur bare handed and Illya remarks on his overwhelming power as a result, not when he has his last fight against Illya, or at any other point. The best you can do is argue the Excalibur feat was done through the vector redirection Darius later shows when Julian loses and he comes out, but that doesn't apply to Julian's other stuff.

Him not using install is fine to add though I suppose, not really sure where you'd list that, seems more like a thing you'd just mention on threads.

Abilities:
Summoning should be corrected, he doesn't summon "all the world's evils", and several characters touch the mud without being negatively affected. Pandora stores failed possibilities, not evil.

There was a line about how it contained all the world's evils, but idk where so just switching it to being the rotten mud of the world's potential, or "all the world's gifts" is fine as that's what it's referred to as later in the manga

Immorality, he should get Type 4 and another that I'll note after this. If his container is killed, he needs to reincarnate in another body by possessing his descendants, or something connected to their magic circuits.

This is fine yeah

Now, finally, High-Godly regeneration. That is just not correct in any way, I don't understand how it passed when there were physical remains from which he recovered.

His immortality works as the following: He stores his information in the pithos of Pandora. Through magic circuits, he overwrites the target - being his descendants or, as with the last body he took, the giant made of mud - with his own information that is stored in there. Even if he does this, he is just projecting that information on the individual, as he cannot remove anything from the pithos, that's what the whole plot is about.

The origin bullet didn't destroy his body, nor his concept. Kiritsigu's Origin Bullets tear and then reconnect magic circuits incorrectly, making the target unable to use said circuits. Kayneth wasn't conceptually erased from existence when hit with them. This is why, as soon as Julian's magic circuits were thorn by the bullet, Darius was unable to possess him anymore.

But he still resurrected, I hear the voices in my head say, how did he do that? Earlier in the fight, Julian created massive thorns out of the pithos' mud that became extensions of his magic circuits. These extensions were not destroyed by the origin bullet, and Darius was able to possess a giant made of the mud through the thorns, and the characters go on to explain that just like a plant can survive if its roots are cut, so did Darius as well.

Now, do you see the problem here? High-Godly regeneration is "the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence". He still had physical remains, which automatically rules out High-Godly before I point out that his concept still exists in the pithos. We've no reason to assume his mind and soul were negatively affected either, for the matter. He just lost connection with the one he was possessing, and connected to another. Should my phone get High-Godly regeneration because I called someone, their phone broke, so I called someone else?

He doesn't have regeneration at all, he has Type 9 immortality, and Possession.

I guess the logic used was "Darius is just the concept/circuits, so those being destroyed meant he was entirely destroyed and still came back" idk I wasn't there for whatever CRT, but yeah its moreso type 9 because he's just copying his information from the Pithos onto his host

Shirou Emiya:
Stamina, remove the whole grail war sections, it was due to Miyu giving him an unlimited amount of energy.

Yeah he has infinite mana under Miyu, but we see as early as the Angelica fight that he doesn't have infinite mana during the rest of the manga

Shinji Matou:
Where's that durability negation from? He used his NP on a Sakura with no Class Card, there's no reason to assume durability negation. Was there a statement I missed or what?

The only statements are that it is a malignant elemental implanted in the arm, and by placing your hand up to someone's chest it puts a hole through it with no known mechanism

Beatrice Flowerchild:
Resurrection, wasn't the core blocking Bazett's attack a very specific power interaction? I don't believe she'd be able to recover from having her head cut off or her heart gauged out.

No I don't think it was really something specific, the way it was explained is Beatrice has a conceptual defense which negates a lethal attack once, this would in theory activate against any lethal attack, not just fragarach, it's just a noted weakness of Fragarach Beatrice's defense is one of the few things that can stop it

And Unknown in tier seems needless, we see Beatrice take the bolts of lighting from her Ragnarok without dying, there's little reason to think it has more notable raw power. It just makes memories into lighting.

I believe the unknown is because of the whole "returns the surrounding area to the age of gods" part which is hax as opposed to AP, but technically tier 1 hax because of how layers work

Angelica Ainsworth:
As above, I don't believe her Ea is comparable to the original.

It's not as strong, but there's not really a reason to suddenly assume it isn't also tier 1 when even Ko-Gil (who is weaker than her) has statements which would still make it that level

Related to Prillya and unrelated to the CRT, we should probably just make Darius a separate profile from Julian, but his stuff has already been added there so rip

 

[LehenDuo]

Abilities:
Summoning should be corrected, he doesn't summon "all the world's evils", and several characters touch the mud without being negatively affected. Pandora stores failed possibilities, not evil.

Will try to respond to the rest of them later when I have time, but this always bothers me.

We may define Evil as different things, okey, everyone knows that I think. But Nasu here isn't really creating anything new. He is basically paraphrasing Aleister Crowley when he speaks about Choronzon.

"The Abyss is empty of being; it is filled with all possible forms, each equally inane, each therefore evil in the only true sense of the word—that is, meaningless but malignant, in so far as it craves to become real. These forms swirl senselessly into haphazard heaps like dust devils, and each such chance aggregation asserts itself to be an individual and shrieks, "I am I!" though aware all the time that its elements have no true bond; so that the slightest disturbance dissipates the delusion just as a horseman, meeting a dust devil, brings it in showers of sand to the earth."

Also, Dust of Osiris' Malignant Information and Moon Cell' Malignant Information, both meaningless in so far as they are "nothingness"

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

it doesn't really justify having a key

Oh, I didn't mean a key, just sections like AP and Dura mentioning "x tier, 6-C with Ruby and Class Cards" and what have you. A key might be worth having just to point to what would happen if an enemy nullifies or separates her from the kaleidostick and the class cards. Regardless of the method though, I'm just saying the profile should mention that she is not at that tier by virtue of her own strength only.

However there's also an argument to be made

And I'd argue against that. Narratively it makes no sense with Julian remarking how she's weak without the help of others and her confirming, as well as the section where she is separated from Ruby and runs in with Beatrice where she states she stands no chance at all. I'd need to reread that fight to give an explanation for how she went near Gil to smack him, but I don't think it would be at all consistent for her to be Servant tier.

While superhuman, I don't think she'd scale above the 9-A where most magus are put at.

No I don't think it was really something specific, the way it was explained is Beatrice has a conceptual defense which negates a lethal attack once, this would in theory activate against any lethal attack, not just fragarach, it's just a noted weakness of Fragarach Beatrice's defense is one of the few things that can stop it

Fair enough, I remembered the wording to be different and assumed that would just be something divine cores could block in general.

I mean, it does resurrect, it just ejects afterwards according to Hiroyama's blog (I think that's where it was), so it's like 1 resurrection per install or something dumb, so it's technically right but really bad

Yeah, I had misread the blog, though the profile should still be adjusted to that information.

it's in fact never mentioned as far as I know

I think that's exactly when it's mentioned? He parries Excalibur before, but in the last fight, when he does that again, Ruby gives his theory for how that is possible. It's in chapter 55, where it's mentioned that he is using mana burst to increase his power, and when he blocks the sword he also covers his hand with the mud, and when she slashes his unprotected side it gets cut normally.

but we see as early as the Angelica fight that he doesn't have infinite mana during the rest of the manga

Yeah, that's why I said the Holy Grail part, the one that claims that he cleared the thing in a day. Everything else is fine, though even with Angelica he only loses his endless energy mid-fight.

I believe the unknown is because of the whole "returns the surrounding area to the age of gods" part which is hax as opposed to AP, but technically tier 1 hax because of how layers work

AP stands for Attack Potency, and that's Ragnarok is not really applicable to that. It's reality warping.

And I don't think overwriting a few kilometers at most, for a small amount of time, is tier 1 rather than doing so permanently to the whole thing. By that logic Shirou should be tier 1, as should Iskander, since Reality Marbles do the same.

We may define Evil as different things, okey, everyone knows that I think. But Nasu here isn't really creating anything new. He is basically paraphrasing Aleister Crowley when he speaks about Choronzon.

That's not my problem, it's that the pithos' mud is unlike Angra Mainyu's, so it should probably not hold the same title on the profile, since we see people touch the mud without any visions or corruption.

it should be noted in the Weakness section, there is no need to remove that ability.

I don't think it really works when it's a group effort where half of the group is missing. She can't do that at all, so it's less a limitation of the power and more the inabiltiy to use it altogether.

He originally had all the Class Cards.

I know, but he insults Illya for relying on the strength of the others as any proper Mahou Shoji villain, I don't believe he personally would use them unless bloodlusted.

But also, I don't think Julian ever had all the cards, back then it was his father who was being possessed to make and use them.

Well, yeah, Summoning should refer to the monsters that are summoned when the mud begins to cover the world. All magus have basic resistance tho.

Not to Angra Mainyu level mud. They can kind of ignore it, but Fate Rin was still taking it badly, not outright not take notice of it.

The mud actually have negative effect, pandora mud has corrosive properties, it can even penetrate spatial manip, moreover it's stated to swallow all concepts.

Yeah, but it's not the kind of mud the Stay Night grail made, so the title should still be updated to this one's instead of equating the two.

I'm fine with this, though the fact that he regenerated the concept should be listed with immo 4 explanation, because it's still a legitimate feat.
Or maybe it's Conceptual Manipulation because it can regenerate the concept?

I might have missed this, I feel like I have with all the mentions... but when was his concept so much as touched? I don't recall any statements, nor any tools that would do that being used.

Origin Bullets don't destroy the concepts of those they hit, Kayneth didn't just blink out of existence, they're conceptual weapons that mangle the magic circuits of others, connecting them imprecisely. And Darius isn't the magic circuits themselves, he just copies his concept into people through said circuits.

As for regenerating, he didn't recover the destroyed circuits at all, he became unable to possess Julian as soon as they were hit, and had to switch to circuits that were left unharmed.

It seems fine, though it should be listed as a conceptual defense on her profile?

Yeah.



As for the NPs, I still think it's a reach to assume they are equal. Gae Bolg didn't drop in rank, but its main function of piercing the heart was limited in range. Zabanaya also was cut down to making half the individuals. Darius outright mentions that Illya after her power-up brought up more of the Saber class card than anyone before, so while I see the Illya who evolved into adult Artoria scaling, I don't believe her Artoria lily form and those that matched it should scale.

I will concede on Ea, because of F/GO's statements of Illya's NP matching the planet's light and all that stuff that makes the intention clear. I still think it is dumb, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.


Also, Julian is mentioned to have infinite magical energy through Pandora.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Oh, I didn't mean a key, just sections like AP and Dura mentioning "x tier, 6-C with Ruby and Class Cards" and what have you. A key might be worth having just to point to what would happen if an enemy nullifies or separates her from the kaleidostick and the class cards. Regardless of the method though, I'm just saying the profile should mention that she is not at that tier by virtue of her own strength only.

Ehhh, I think it weird but I know what you're getting at and I suppose it would technically be good to have as a value, in case she's completely nulled, or she does something with the assassin card and loses the stick

And I'd argue against that. Narratively it makes no sense with Julian remarking how she's weak without the help of others and her confirming, as well as the section where she is separated from Ruby and runs in with Beatrice where she states she stands no chance at all. I'd need to reread that fight to give an explanation for how she went near Gil to smack him, but I don't think it would be at all consistent for her to be Servant tier.

She uses the assassin card to trick him, then she lands infront of him and smacks him before he can respond, and somehow that was strong enough to turn his head and hurt him, which is unironically better than Kuzuki could do against EMIYA when he got nerfed back to human level

I think that's exactly when it's mentioned? He parries Excalibur before, but in the last fight, when he does that again, Ruby gives his theory for how that is possible. It's in chapter 55, where it's mentioned that he is using mana burst to increase his power, and when he blocks the sword he also covers his hand with the mud, and when she slashes his unprotected side it gets cut normally.

Just reread it and yeah you're right, ruby does mention mana burst, and then Illya thinks back to the early Excalibur block, idk why she'd think it was the same considering his arm looked normal back then but fair enough

Yeah, that's why I said the Holy Grail part, the one that claims that he cleared the thing in a day. Everything else is fine, though even with Angelica he only loses his endless energy mid-fight.

Agreed

AP stands for Attack Potency, and that's Ragnarok is not really applicable to that. It's reality warping.

I'm aware, thats why I said it was hax

But also, I don't think Julian ever had all the cards, back then it was his father who was being possessed to make and use them.

I think he did have at least all the ones for Shirou's war, because to my knowledge, he was the administrator for that one, who then handed them out.

I might have missed this, I feel like I have with all the mentions... but when was his concept so much as touched? I don't recall any statements, nor any tools that would do that being used.

Origin Bullets don't destroy the concepts of those they hit, Kayneth didn't just blink out of existence, they're conceptual weapons that mangle the magic circuits of others, connecting them imprecisely. And Darius isn't the magic circuits themselves, he just copies his concept into people through said circuits.

It's because Darius is just his concept or something, and they passed down the circuits to give birth to the concept of Darius, hence conceptual replacement

As for the NPs, I still think it's a reach to assume they are equal. Gae Bolg didn't drop in rank, but its main function of piercing the heart was limited in range. Zabanaya also was cut down to making half the individuals. Darius outright mentions that Illya after her power-up brought up more of the Saber class card than anyone before, so while I see the Illya who evolved into adult Artoria scaling, I don't believe her Artoria lily form and those that matched it should scale.

I mean it is straight up the same NP rank wise so idk why we'd assume it dropped a bunch power wise. I'm not sure if Gae Bolg really was limited in range, it already had short range to begin with, I don't know how you can really lower it more. And Zabaniya seems like a noted exception because it goes out of it's way in the mats to specify that it's greatly deteriorated, something no other card gets mention of.

Darius's statement was "Let's see, the last person who was able to manifest Saber's power to this extent... I think it was Zachary?" This doesn't really mean she only reaches that level after getting the cloaked form either, as Darius hadn't really fought her in the Lily state. This was also uhh, literally the last person besides Illya who used it btw so idk why he made it sound so impressive.

But idk if this really seems good enough as a reason to assume the NP isn't on the same level of strength that it's the same rank as. The card says you obtain Saber's abilities, and then goes on to note that her "Attack, Defense, Reactions, Magical Ability, and Noble Phantasm are all lend to her being called the most excellent Heroic Spirit." The Saber lily form is then called an expression of a different side of the personality, rather than a weaker form or anything of the like.

Also, Julian is mentioned to have infinite magical energy through Pandora.

Should we list that though, it feels like a similar situation to Shirou with Miyu, where they have infinite mana with another character's backup, rather than on their own

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

She uses the assassin card to trick him, then she lands infront of him and smacks him before he can respond, and somehow that was strong enough to turn his head and hurt him, which is unironically better than Kuzuki could do against EMIYA when he got nerfed back to human level

The Assassin card makes her weaker than what Ruby gives as a boost, but she still should have at least E rank strength from it all the same, and higher agility.

But idk if this really seems good enough as a reason to assume the NP isn't on the same level of strength that it's the same rank as. The card says you obtain Saber's abilities, and then goes on to note that her "Attack, Defense, Reactions, Magical Ability, and Noble Phantasm are all lend to her being called the most excellent Heroic Spirit." The Saber lily form is then called an expression of a different side of the personality, rather than a weaker form or anything of the like.

All class cards are weaker, the profiles already say as much, and the note of all that stuff being lent to the user comes with that information being already known. And I don't think the Lily form is equal to her adult form - besides Lily being weaker as a Servant in general, Darius remark coming after she transforms and Illya saying she'd borrow Artoria's power for the transformation both seem to present it as the transformation being meaningful power wise.

Should we list that though, it feels like a similar situation to Shirou with Miyu, where they have infinite mana with another character's backup, rather than on their own

He gets it from the pithos, and he spent a lot of time learning how to use it, and can seemingly carry it around with himself in a small cube form. I think he should have it both for the energy, as well as its mud and such.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The Assassin card makes her weaker than what Ruby gives as a boost, but she still should have at least E rank strength from it all the same, and higher agility.

Yeah that would be the case if she had the card installed still, but when she uses the decoy thing Ruby has the card and Illya is left alone without either Ruby or the card, since doing it requires Ruby to include the card and become the decoy, it's like what she did against Bazett to try and activate the shared death curse

All class cards are weaker, the profiles already say as much, and the note of all that stuff being lent to the user comes with that information being already known. And I don't think the Lily form is equal to her adult form - besides Lily being weaker as a Servant in general, Darius remark coming after she transforms and Illya saying she'd borrow Artoria's power for the transformation both seem to present it as the transformation being meaningful power wise.

Isn't the rank drop for the blackened servants according to Hiroyama, not necessarily the cards? His wording was that the blackened servants emerging from the cards might have their stats ranked down 1 or 2 ranks, I feel like the profile note might be wrong if the only source of the rank down refers to only the blackened servants but meh

As for Lily being weaker, thats the case when they're different servants yeah, but thats not the case here. The only servant in the class card is King Arthur, not Saber Lily, Lily is noted in the case of the saber class card, to just be another aspect of Artoria's personality, as the Princess Knight, as opposed to implying she is another or weaker version of the heroic spirit

personality-wise there are many sides to her as well. The figure the time Ilya uses her is not in the role of a King but rather the strong expression of her Princess Knight side

The cloak transformation is also seemingly related to her mental state becoming closer to Saber's as a king, with her mentioning King Arthur fighting while shouldering everyone's ideals, and the manga mentioning her will shining brighter now. It seems more overall to just be like "she's now less naive and thus less like the princess and more like the king".

So even if you took Julian's line (he actually fought both unlike Darius so he has a means of comparison) where he asks how she could draw out so much of Saber's power, to mean she got stronger, everything else implies this isn't a really big power difference from her previous uses. From the description explicitly stating she gains the power of King Arthur and that Lily is just an alternate personality, to the fact she's able to use it to fight against the various mud servants who were giving Bazett and Kuro a difficult time, or the fact you're also able to scale the people the non cloak form fights to Zachary anyway, Miyu's saber form fighting Berserker who is supposed to be Magni level and bypassing his godhand before he adapts, there's Kuro's uses of it, or Illya overpowering Salter's etc.

With all that stuff I just don't really see the cloak being a massive power boost to the point that the NP's would be much weaker despite being the same rank, at best its some vague amount lower but still in the same ballpark by scaling.

He gets it from the pithos, and he spent a lot of time learning how to use it, and can seemingly carry it around with himself in a small cube form. I think he should have it both for the energy, as well as its mud and such.

If it's from the Pithos fair enough yeah, that's his equipment, I thought you meant Pandora as in Erica

 

[LehenDuo]

That's not my problem, it's that the pithos' mud is unlike Angra Mainyu's, so it should probably not hold the same title on the profile, since we see people touch the mud without any visions or corruption.

You said that as if Nasu was the first person in the world to define "Evil" as that, I just corrected that. That definition isn't "innovative" at all.
In UBW they also do that... And Angra Mainyu is really ******* similar to it, I don't see how they would be unlike each other.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You said that as if Nasu was the first person in the world to define "Evil" as that, I just corrected that. That definition isn't "innovative" at all.
In UBW they also do that... And Angra Mainyu is really ******* similar to it, I don't see how they would be unlike each other.

I... did not. I said the profile refers to it as summoning all the world's evils, but "all the world's evils" is the title of another thing. The quotations were there because that's the title of it, I would put the quotations for any full sentence names.

everything else implies this isn't a really big power difference from her previous uses.

It's a Mahou Shojou, that her mentality affects her power is standard, and I'm pretty sure we are told that the level of power you bring out of a card also matters on compatibility.

And Artoria lily is an aspect of Saber too, that's how she is presented, unlike her Lancer selves being full on AUs.

Regardless, Darius remark points towards it being a power up, while what you've brought up against is that the transformation was reliant on Illya's mentality, which to me does not mean she wouldn't be weaker. And I don't think a tier should be based on the assumption that it's probably as strong, either.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It's a Mahou Shojou, that her mentality affects her power is standard, and I'm pretty sure we are told that the level of power you bring out of a card also matters on compatibility.

And Artoria lily is an aspect of Saber too, that's how she is presented, unlike her Lancer selves being full on AUs.

Lily servants are younger versions of a servant that exist because of alteration to a saint graph, so they aren't really the same servant as altering the saint graph changes them due to that being literally all of a servant's information. In the case of the card yeah, she's just a personality thing rather than a different or edited being.

Regardless, Darius remark points towards it being a power up, while what you've brought up against is that the transformation was reliant on Illya's mentality, which to me does not mean she wouldn't be weaker. And I don't think a tier should be based on the assumption that it's probably as strong, either.

What I've brought up isn't only that it's mentality, it's also that the NPs are the same rank, scaling would put it on around the same level either way, etc.

Like even if you were to try and ignore the fact that the NPs quite literally are the same rank and power, Miyu with Saber is able to fight Kuro, Kuro is able to fight Angelica along with Shirou after Shirou lost to Angelica, Shirou is above Zachary and Zachary is on the level of cloak Illya according to Darius.

The shadow servant army is stronger than or at least as strong as Bazett (these aren't blackened class cards either so the 1 to 2 rank downgrade wouldn't really apply), Bazett is able to pierce and kill a Gilgamesh that was 10x Salter in one hit, with him only living due to regen, but says these servants are superior in strength and numbers to their group, and Illya is able to help with her Lily form and Excalibur.

And this isn't to mention that if you assume that for some reason the identically ranked A++ rank Excalibur is not the same strength as A++ rank Excalibur, Illya's would actually be stronger rather than weaker. Excalibur uses the user's own energy, Illya possesses a wand which enacts the second magic and draws infinite energy from parallel worlds, additionally shes a grail with access to wishes, better magical circuits and energy than almost anyone else, etc, so if you assumed for some reason her Excalibur isn't the same power as the normal one outside of the cloak form, it's probably stronger rather than weaker. In fact, this is why she beat Salter's to begin with.

The only thing that points to it being a powerup are the vague lines about Zachary being the last to pull out that much of its power (from someone who hadn't faced Illya with it prior), and Illya's line about borrowing Saber's power. The thing is that with the above stuff I've brought up, these vague remarks really just don't seem to imply some big difference between the level of her Excalibur's at all, you'd have to say those vague remarks are evidence of her Excalibur not being around the same level despite scaling and mats saying otherwise which just doesn't really work in my eyes.

At best the cloak seems to have functioned as a relatively small boost given her fights after and before, rather than as the only time her stuff reached around the level of Excalibur and can scale to it.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

BUMP

I also wish to say that I agree with most things in this thread, barring the stuff about Excalibur and Ea.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Sorry, real life will be taking up most of my time. I would be fine with applying the changes already agreed on.