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Fans seem split on the punch Superman pulled on Forger

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personally I think Morrison made SP1M vague in feats because 1. to give the others a chance to shine in the One Million storyline 2. Because he's Superman, we don't need reaffirmation that he's strong and 3. He's the end-all of Supermen, so we only get hints of his power and let our imagination do the rest, and it hypes him up further because any insane feat present Superman does is obviously minuscule compared to his 15,000 years older Prime self.

So yeah all the people that think he's featless and weak as hell are not seeing the point in his character and are thinking too much about debunking him for versus debates.
 
Yeah the scene itself is beautiful. It's cliche but nice. Though the powerscaling stirred up a lot of controversy when even the editor dismissed that Supes power is not directly responsible for the destruction of the multiverse.
 
It never was. Plus in a recent comic we know that even in his manifestation Forger can destroy universes just by entering them.
 
According to that scan, WF says that his powers were diminished on that plane, but every strike of his hammer can bring a universe to life. Low 2-C depowered WF?
 
JackJoyce said:
AKM sama said:
Where was this stated/implied?
Click to expand...
Here
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This scene is specifically referring to the form World Forger made for himself after Superman punched him. He's been walking around with a body crafted from cells that allow him to enter lower planes of reality ever since Issue #25 of The Justice League. The scene referenced here is from Issue #30.

The place in which Superman gave him a fat lip is a higher plane where multiverses are created before lowering them onto the previous multiverse. Here you can see Batman talking to the Forger on said higher plane, and the Forger explains his cells will not allow him to exist in the lower plane of DC universe proper. Amped Superman should scale to that, not to World Forger's depowered version meant to exist in lower spaces and ensure the Justice League isn't unbeatable for the next few issues.
 
Then Superman should be upgraded to Low 1-C not 2-A (including the Justice league who were able to fight in that plane). I don't think the writer intended them to be that strong
 
JackJoyce said:
Then Superman should be upgraded to Low 1-C not 2-A (including the Justice league who were able to fight in that plane). I don't think the writer intended them to be that strong
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They were not that strong. The "dimensions" being used in this storyline are not spatial dimensions in the traditional sense. They are governing layers of reality. This was covered in the Monitor revision thread. Existing in that realm or fighting in it does not say anything about your dimensionality. Besides, even if it was a higher dimension as we often think of them (which it isn't, but just for argument's sake), you would need to do more than exist there to be classified as a higher dimensional being. The Justice League doesn't scale. If you were unbound from the third dimension for example and tossed into the 8th dimension, that would not automatically make you 8 dimensional. That would just mean you were in an 8 dimensional space.
 
Indeed it is, but I didn't mention anything about an 8D brick.

I said that you being in an 8D place would not qualify you for being 8D. The multiverse the Justice League was in, the counterparts they were fighting, and the buildings they were walking through were all explicately created to imitate and replace the same multiverse they came from initially, which was definitely 3D. Even if the realm that multiverse was created in was confirmed to be 8D that would not mean the things built there were necessarily 8D. (Well, I mean, under normal circumstances, it would make sense to assume that things in an 8D realm are 8D by default, but since this story specifies so frequently that the items in question are made to replace and imitate regular 3D items by an entity that is capable of making lower dimensional items, it does not in this fringe case.)

But this is all a tangent anyway. As mentioned above, the "planes" in this case are not referring to traditional spatial dimensions. It's all a misnomer caused by silly comic book logic. It would probably be easier to discuss these things if we shipped DC some sort of encyclopedia.
 
Btw, I'm sorry for misunderstanding your post. I thought you had a problem with the Justice League simply existing in a higher dimension. I should have realized via context that your real issue was with them seeming to run around and break things there. Duh.
 
According DC Editor Andrew Marino the Editor of DC comics. Superman did not destroy the Multiverse.

https://twitter.com/amarino2814/status/1156933824988606464

"The only world that was completely stable in the WF's Multiverse was the future JL's world, so when Superman stopped WF from completing it, everything else started to crumble. Hope this helps! Now I really need to go and focus on the books"

"Superman did not destroy the Multiverse! He merely knocked the World Forger down, saving our Multiverse for the time being. He also didn't destroy the 6th Dimension. He just broke the world of the future JL the World Forger created in the 6th Dimension. Hope that helps!"

https://twitter.com/amarino2814/status/1141358676067753984


Superman merely destroyed a small portion of the earth, and even a blind man can see that in the scans. How did Justice league members take the multiversal explosion unscathed? The proof is all there with editors making clear sense out that scene. Superman disturbed the stability of that universe when he stopped forger from completing that world, and due to instability, future, justice league got erased. The space-time / Matter of multiverse, even the earth itself was fine apart from that crater
 
Those Tweets were already discussed in a completely different thread. We are talking about Superman punching the World Forger right now, not its effects on the multiverse.

In fact, this isn't even a content revision thread. The whole discussion has kind of been derailed. This was originally a conversation about whether the writing for Justice League #25 was good or if the random mega feat thrown in kind of ruined things.
 
"other half is very upset, calling it complete bullshit and an outlier"

What I'm saying is feat is not an outlier. It's similar when power is cut-off while you are installing windows 10 due to emergency. As a result, the entire software(People/Justice League) is corrupt and useless. You can say you ruined my Computer while hardware(Multiverse) remains intact. Forger was saying the similar thing you destroyed my Multiverse. Destroying Multiverse has a different meaning for Forger than people usually think of Multiverse. The feat is not BS and outlier if you understand the story from Editor Perspective and not from a fan perspective. The feat is not outlandish, and it does not ruin the story.
 
Darkpast2019 said:
According DC Editor Andrew Marino, Superman did not destroy the Multiverse.

https://twitter.com/amarino2814/status/1156933824988606464

"The only world that was completely stable in the WF's Multiverse was the future JL's world, so when Superman stopped WF from completing it, everything else started to crumble. Hope this helps! Now I really need to go and focus on the books"

"Superman did not destroy the Multiverse! He merely knocked the World Forger down, saving our Multiverse for the time being. He also didn't destroy the 6th Dimension. He just broke the world of the future JL the World Forger created in the 6th Dimension. Hope that helps!"

https://twitter.com/amarino2814/status/1141358676067753984
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This seems to make sense to me, but if we update the profile, we would need a footnote explanation with screencaptured images of the tweets in question.
 
It doesn't matter if he destroyed an entire multiverse or the entire 6th Dimension. He knocked out the World Forger, that's the actual feat.
 
I suppose that is a good point. Unless we should count it as an outlier.
 
Superman flew through a galaxy's worth of stars and in the same storyline we learn that Mxy has been secretely feeding Superman with 5th Dimensional energy in preparation for what's to come.
 
Also a good point. Should we upgrade him to 2-A then, but clarify that Mxyzptlk had also powered him up?
 
Superman in recent years on Flashpoint has been showing some really weird high-end feats. And it's not even like his Post-Crisis Feats which are usually full of context or merely involve "Surviving attacks from Universal Beings" or "Affecting them with his attacks". Which are more indication of the opponent holding back than Superman being that strong.

Now in Rebirth Era we're just getting shit like Superman saying he could destroy the entire Phantom Zone if he wanted, and shaking / shattering it in a fight. Him supposedly being able to fight Doctor Manhattan 1 v 1. Him punching the World Forger, etc.

I suppose that this is a result of DC more openly embracing Grant Morrison's Metatextual interpretation of Superman, where he is the literal center of the DC Universe and the embodiment of the idea of a "Hero", who can overcome any challenge or opponent he faces because that's what a Hero does. It makes more compelling stories and inspiring moments, but it's hell to properly tier.
 
Antvasima said:
Also a good point. Should we upgrade him to 2-A then, but clarify that Mxyzptlk had also powered him up?
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I'll clarify with the scans.

Should we straight up make it a new key instead of just "2-A with Sun Dips"
 
More like change the key text to "With sun dips and Mxyzptlk power-up" or somesuch.
 
The editor's Tweets were also discussed in a previous thread, and it was decided by the knowledgeable members team that they were too contradictory with other Words of God as well as the actual events displayed in the comic itself to warrant a downgrade.

It's still a weird feat, and I understand if people don't want to scale from it, but frankly, it seems like a compromise to me in the first place, and it was only agreed upon when it was because the Forger still didn't have a profile at the time (it was waiting for PoM's Monitor Revision Thread). Scaling Superman from World Forger seems more reliable because we know Supes recieved a rididulously large, never before seen power boost right before punching him, and we know that the World Forger was going on about his ability to make multiverses that entire arc. The writers set up a pretty clear scaling chain, gave Superman an undefined and temporary power up before applying him to it, and even set up an explanation for nerfing the World Forger after that fight so the Justice League woudn't be stupidly OP when the Forger joined them in the next arc. These are all signs of a concentrated, deliberate effort to display consistent powers and give Superman a way of beating him that makes sense in-universe. It's very different from what PIS usually looks like.
 
There is also no evidence that the Mxyzptlk power up was affecting Superman at that time. First of all, he was very visibly drained to near death before receiving his solar boost. Secondly, it is unclear whether Mxyzptlk was even telling the truth about sharing his power with Superman in the first place. It all turned out to be a ruse to trap him in an empty universe as part of a deal he had made with the World Forger. Some aspects of the story Mxy gave him turned out to be straight up lies. Why would you legitimately power up your pawn like that if it would help them escape the trap you'd set for them? Especially if your claims also indicate the power up was done in secret and your pawn probably doesn't even know that he/she is stronger? World Forger does state that he recognizes it's possible Superman could make it back to Earth from where he's been stranded, but only because he is the prime Superma not because of some sort of power up from Mxy.
 
Okay. I suppose that we shouldn't add Mxyzptlk as a justification for the temporary power-up then.
 
Mxyzptlk was the guardian angel of Superman. Not sure Supe was empowered by him. Also 6D is beyond the perception of Mxy according to the scans. Him empowering Superman to knock out the Forger makes no sense
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Superman in recent years on Flashpoint has been showing some really weird high-end feats. And it's not even like his Post-Crisis Feats which are usually full of context or merely involve "Surviving attacks from Universal Beings" or "Affecting them with his attacks". Which are more indication of the opponent holding back than Superman being that strong.
Now in Rebirth Era we're just getting shit like Superman saying he could destroy the entire Phantom Zone if he wanted, and shaking / shattering it in a fight. Him supposedly being able to fight Doctor Manhattan 1 v 1. Him punching the World Forger, etc.

I suppose that this is a result of DC more openly embracing Grant Morrison's Metatextual interpretation of Superman, where he is the literal center of the DC Universe and the embodiment of the idea of a "Hero", who can overcome any challenge or opponent he faces because that's what a Hero does. It makes more compelling stories and inspiring moments, but it's hell to properly tier.
Click to expand...
So base form 3-A/Low 2-C Rebirth Supes when? /s
 
That's a different Justice League from an alternate future. They aren't really related to the Justice League the Forger made. Specifically, you're looking at Big Barda, Micron, Superman, Terry McGinnis, Warhawk, Kai-Ro, and Aquagirl from left to right.
 
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