Expanding the References for Common Feats page

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Common Feat Addition - Drawing & Slashing A Sword Faster Than The Human Eye Can See

This feat recently got accepted. I hope to add it to the Common Feats Page?

vsbattles.com

We still need to make and add calcs for this.

 

[Drite77]

Common Feat Addition - Drawing & Slashing A Sword Faster Than The Human Eye Can See

This feat recently got accepted. I hope to add it to the Common Feats Page?

vsbattles.com

We still need to make and add calcs for this.

I think it is not needed to add that many types of swords, they are not common enough to warrant it imo

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

I think it is not needed to add that many types of swords, they are not common enough to warrant it imo

Would be interesting to see how fast the largest swords ever made would need to be swung to achieve that feat though, I'm only adding 3 other swords at minimum.

 

[Drite77]

Would be interesting to see how fast the largest swords ever made would need to be swung to achieve that feat though, I'm only adding 3 other swords at minimum.

I don't think that is needed in the Reference for Common Feats page

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

I don't think that is needed in the Reference for Common Feats page

Eh, would be a useful reference for oversized swords though, and even if it isn't that necessary it'd still be interesting to know.

 

[Drite77]

Eh, would be a useful reference for oversized swords though, and even if it isn't that necessary it'd still be interesting to know.

Anybody can make a calc if they find it interesting '-'. I just don't think it is useful to have those calcs in the page

 

[Antvasima]

eh i could but im not a staff member

I would prefer if a staff member handles it. My apologies.

Is somebody here willing to do so please?

 

[YmTheSuper]

I would prefer if a staff member handles it. My apologies.

Is somebody here willing to do so please?

@Antvasima would it be fine if I handle this?

 

[ElajRuengies]

@Antvasima would it be fine if I handle this?

Realized I never listed the numbers for the change in the car fragging calc:

• Same volume of aluminum as before: 66,694.81481 cm³
• Fragging: 48.75 j/cc
• That's 3,251,372.222 joules for all the aluminum
• Totaled with everything else is 33,329,403.49 joules

 

[JPTheGamer]

Eh, would be a useful reference for oversized swords though, and even if it isn't that necessary it'd still be interesting to know.

Anybody can make a calc if they find it interesting '-'. I just don't think it is useful to have those calcs in the page

Maybe we could reduce it down to one or two swords, then.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima would it be fine if I handle this?

Yes. Feel free to do so, and thank you for helping out.

 

[Drite77]

Maybe we could reduce it down to one or two swords, then.

I still don't think it should be there

 

[Antvasima]

I still don't think it should be there

Drite seems to make sense here.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I still don't think it should be there

Drite seems to make sense here.

Why?

 

[Drite77]

Why?

Reference for common feats. I believe adding feats that are variarions of another one just because doesn't make sense as they are not that common

 

[Random-Helper323]

I've noticed there's no AP calculation for knocking down (via snapping or uprooting) a tree. This would vary a lot due to width and type of tree, but I think it's a common enough feat to be worth getting a ballpark for it.

I also have concerns about a particular feat that's currently there.

 

[Antvasima]

I've noticed there's no AP calculation for knocking down (via snapping or uprooting) a tree. This would vary a lot due to width and type of tree, but I think it's a common enough feat to be worth getting a ballpark for it.

That seems like a good idea, yes.

I also have concerns about a particular feat that's currently there.

Please elaborate.

 

[Drite77]

So, I agree to having both calcs be there with a disclaimer.

...Now what?

Since you were the one who proposed the change, how do you want to word it?

 

[ElajRuengies]

Since you were the one who proposed the change, how do you want to word it?

"Destroying a car" can refer to either the vehicle being utterly totaled, with all exterior elements broken off and a core still largely intact (such as in the classic bonus stages of Street Fighter), or to the whole thing being reduced to pieces with no intact structures left.

For the former, [Car Crush calc here]

For the latter, [Modified Car Fragging calc]

 

[Random-Helper323]

That seems like a good idea, yes.

What do you think is the best way to get that done? I was thinking average tree width or a small range of tree widths, for measuring snapping it. And there's already a lifting strength reference for uprooting a tree, but not AP.

Please elaborate.

This common feat reference is not accurate, at least not usually. While the measurement for the force needed for breaking the latch is fine, it assumes the latch is always snapped when the door is kicked open.

As shown here, here, here, here, here, and here, the doorframe, door jamb, hinges, screws and sometimes even the door itself generally break before the latch does.

In most cases the thing that breaks is the wood on the door jamb in front of the latch, as shown in those images, and here. We're talking about a thin bit of wood reinforced by a thin strike plate which is usually held in place by short screws. This page here describes the other items that break when a door is kicked open, and it's generally not the actual bolt that breaks. This video also shows a door kicked in. This video shows a repair process.

A prominent piece of advice for strengthening doors against kicks is installing a longer strike plate and using longer screws. The door's latch gets knocked into the strike plate, which is fastened by screws which are in the door jamb. Usually those are short screws in a wooden door jamb. The screws come loose, the strike plate moves, the thin piece of wood the strike plate is over snaps, and the door is forced open, while the latch remains mostly undamaged. That is actually shown in this image, this image and this image, where you can see the latch was forced through the door jamb, ripping the strike plate straight off the jamb. This image also shows the jamb ripped through, although no strike plate is shown. In those images you can see the door was shoved open, forcing the latch through the door jamb.

---

I can also tell you from real life experience installing, fixing and reinforcing doors, windows and locks, including ones that had been broken into, that breaking doors open very rarely involves shearing the latch in half. It is almost always the door jamb that breaks. What's actually resisting the kick against the door is the strength of the screws in the frame, and that thin piece of wood. The wood actually breaks pitifully easily, so it's really the grip the screws have on the frame that is resisting the kick. That is far weaker than the latch itself.

 

[YmTheSuper]

Realized I never listed the numbers for the change in the car fragging calc:

• Same volume of aluminum as before: 66,694.81481 cm³
• Fragging: 48.75 j/cc
• That's 3,251,372.222 joules for all the aluminum
• Totaled with everything else is 33,329,403.49 joules

I noticed that the fragmentation value for cast iron in the calc is 149 J/cc while our current accepted value for Grey Cast iron is 400 J/cc. Should that be changed too?

 

[ElajRuengies]

I noticed that the fragmentation value for cast iron in the calc is 149 J/cc while our current accepted value for Grey Cast iron is 400 J/cc. Should that be changed too?

Huh, interesting. Where'd 400 come from? Shear strength is 149 - 610 for Grey Cast Iron, and usually fragging uses the lowball value. (Also it's kinda odd that Cast Iron's fragging value is 2/3rds the violent fragging value.)

I think that's fine to leave given that it's sourced. The value for aluminum in the calc was a problem because it was based on aluminum alloys.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think is the best way to get that done? I was thinking average tree width or a small range of tree widths, for measuring snapping it. And there's already a lifting strength reference for uprooting a tree, but not AP.

I am not a calc group member. My apologies. But a table with energy values for different sizes and types of wood seems reasonable.

This common feat reference is not accurate, at least not usually. While the measurement for the force needed for breaking the latch is fine, it assumes the latch is always snapped when the door is kicked open.

As shown here, here, here, here, here, and here, the doorframe, door jamb, hinges, screws and sometimes even the door itself generally break before the latch does.

In most cases the thing that breaks is the wood on the door jamb in front of the latch, as shown in those images, and here. We're talking about a thin bit of wood reinforced by a thin strike plate which is usually held in place by short screws. This page here describes the other items that break when a door is kicked open, and it's generally not the actual bolt that breaks. This video also shows a door kicked in. This video shows a repair process.

A prominent piece of advice for strengthening doors against kicks is installing a longer strike plate and using longer screws. The door's latch gets knocked into the strike plate, which is fastened by screws which are in the door jamb. Usually those are short screws in a wooden door jamb. The screws come loose, the strike plate moves, the thin piece of wood the strike plate is over snaps, and the door is forced open, while the latch remains mostly undamaged. That is actually shown in this image, this image and this image, where you can see the latch was forced through the door jamb, ripping the strike plate straight off the jamb. This image also shows the jamb ripped through, although no strike plate is shown. In those images you can see the door was shoved open, forcing the latch through the door jamb.

I can also tell you from real life experience installing, fixing and reinforcing doors, windows and locks, including ones that had been broken into, that breaking doors open very rarely involves shearing the latch in half. It is almost always the door jamb that breaks. What's actually resisting the kick against the door is the strength of the screws in the frame, and that thin piece of wood. The wood actually breaks pitifully easily, so it's really the grip the screws have on the frame that is resisting the kick. That is far weaker than the latch itself.

Well, that should probably be adjusted then, but I am still not a calc group member.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Well, that should probably be adjusted then, but I am still not a calc group member.

Yeah, I raised it a while ago but the thread overall seemed to miss it. I'm not sure how best to discuss it, especially since the Wiki currently indexes it as absolute fact that slamming a locked door open means snapping the latch, something which is well documented to be false. The other issue is that many profiles use that for their rating.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Side note but whoever thought that Haverty Design Service's ad was a good idea, please remove it, this thing covers 99% of the screen for like 30 seconds before you can close it, and then it pops up again 10 seconds later.

Had to sit through four of them while typing a message.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I am not a calc group member. My apologies. But a table with energy values for different sizes and types of wood seems reasonable.

Well, that should probably be adjusted then, but I am still not a calc group member.

You wanna ping some calc group members, then?

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think is the best way to get that done? I was thinking average tree width or a small range of tree widths, for measuring snapping it. And there's already a lifting strength reference for uprooting a tree, but not AP.

This common feat reference is not accurate, at least not usually. While the measurement for the force needed for breaking the latch is fine, it assumes the latch is always snapped when the door is kicked open.

As shown here, here, here, here, here, and here, the doorframe, door jamb, hinges, screws and sometimes even the door itself generally break before the latch does.

In most cases the thing that breaks is the wood on the door jamb in front of the latch, as shown in those images, and here. We're talking about a thin bit of wood reinforced by a thin strike plate which is usually held in place by short screws. This page here describes the other items that break when a door is kicked open, and it's generally not the actual bolt that breaks. This video also shows a door kicked in. This video shows a repair process.

A prominent piece of advice for strengthening doors against kicks is installing a longer strike plate and using longer screws. The door's latch gets knocked into the strike plate, which is fastened by screws which are in the door jamb. Usually those are short screws in a wooden door jamb. The screws come loose, the strike plate moves, the thin piece of wood the strike plate is over snaps, and the door is forced open, while the latch remains mostly undamaged. That is actually shown in this image, this image and this image, where you can see the latch was forced through the door jamb, ripping the strike plate straight off the jamb. This image also shows the jamb ripped through, although no strike plate is shown. In those images you can see the door was shoved open, forcing the latch through the door jamb.

---

I can also tell you from real life experience installing, fixing and reinforcing doors, windows and locks, including ones that had been broken into, that breaking doors open very rarely involves shearing the latch in half. It is almost always the door jamb that breaks. What's actually resisting the kick against the door is the strength of the screws in the frame, and that thin piece of wood. The wood actually breaks pitifully easily, so it's really the grip the screws have on the frame that is resisting the kick. That is far weaker than the latch itself.

I am not a calc group member. My apologies. But a table with energy values for different sizes and types of wood seems reasonable.

Well, that should probably be adjusted then, but I am still not a calc group member.

Yeah, I raised it a while ago but the thread overall seemed to miss it. I'm not sure how best to discuss it, especially since the Wiki currently indexes it as absolute fact that slamming a locked door open means snapping the latch, something which is well documented to be false. The other issue is that many profiles use that for their rating.

You wanna ping some calc group members, then?

@Executor_N0 @Mr. Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @KLOL506 @M3X_2.0 @Dark-Carioca

Are any of you willing and able to help out here please?

 

[KLOL506]

This would involve calculating the volume of the broken portion of the wood, which would vary every time as not all door-break-in feats will be the exact same.