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Equal Stats Enemy Duos Tournament 1-6: I have literally no clue how one of these teams is winning
- Thread starter SlendVeny
- Start date
- 10,807
- 12,137
Seems we go in without restrictions.
For a start, let me simply post the official short explanation of how summoning works. I figure the pictures may help~
And now my explanation, which adds a few relevant details:
So, the battle will begin with Biondetta, and possibly also Kyousuke, throwing a holy hand grenade. Once it explodes, the summoning can start. Biondetta has a wireless trigger for her grenade in her teeth, so she can make it explode without the regular grenade delay.
Once the summoning starts the summoners get their protective circle which, for the purposes of this battle, makes them invulnerable. However, as the quick guide above already mentions, should you destroy the silhouette, a core found in all summoned beings, the summoner of said summon gets incapped. So beating the summon is the win con in a battle against summoners.
So how does one summon things? Well, it involves 3D billiard. There is a stick called Bloodsign, which is basically a billiard cue. Then there are floating balls called Thorns, which equate to the balls you want to hit in billiard. Thorns are intangible to everything but the Bloodsign. And then there are a bunch of other floating balls called Petals. Petals can only be hit using the Thorns. Petals are the balls you actually want to get into the pockets. The pockets are 36 random locations, which are called Spots.
So to reiterate: You use the Bloodsign stick, to hit the Thorn balls, so that they bounce against the Petal balls, to make them drop into the Spot pockets. That earns you a Petal.
What do you do with the Petals you earned? You summon things with them. How? Each Petal is engraved with one letter of the alphabet. In principle, all you need to do is to spell out the name of the summon you wish to summon, which uses up the letters in the name in exchange. Summons are referred to as Materials btw.
There are some restrictions on how to do this, though. There are two ways of summoning and the explanation in the pictures only explains the basic common version. So let's start with that as well:
For the usual method of summoning you just need to have petals with the letters corresponding to the name of a Material. You are allowed to select letters from those you have and rearrange them as you please. All that's important is that you have collected all the needed letters by launching Petals into Spots.
For example, let's say you collect the following Petals in the following order: h, c, o, n, p, b.
Having these letters in your stock, would allow you to summon the Ramming Fish, whose real name is "nh – cb", simply because n, h, c and b are letters which you have.
There is a restriction on which Materials you can summon when, though. At first you can only summon Regulation-class Materials. After 100 of those have been summoned you can also summon Divine-class Materials. After 50 of those have been summoned, all Materials can be summoned without restriction (aside from needing the corresponding letters), i.e. everything listed here can be summoned.
The second method is rarely used, as it is a high-risk high-reward strategy, which almost always fails against a good summoner. The above restriction, that 100 Regulation-class Materials need to be summoned before Divine-class Materials, and 50 Divine-class Materials before the rest can be summoned, can be bypassed using this method.
The entire requirement is that the letters you collected using the Petals need to exactly spell out the name of the Material you wish to summon, in exactly the right order and with no excess letters.
So, as an example, say we want to summon the Divine-class Material Odin (whose real name is Odin) as our very first summon. If you had collected the letters d, i, o and n, in that order, it wouldn't work. We have the right letters, but we may not rearrange them.
If we had the letters o, d, h, i, n, in that order, it likewise wouldn't work, as the letters are in the right order, but we have a letter too much.
Only if we collect the letters o, d, i and n, in that exact order and only those, can Odin be immediately summoned.
Why is the second method rarely used? Two reasons:
Notice how on page three we have Yamata no Orochi (or maybe a Hydra) who would be Divine-class, meaning that the first 100 summons are done. On the second to last page, we already have the summoning of the White Queen, the strongest of all Materials.
Given, that's just to give a visual impression. While written by the author it's not part of the canon of the main series. So instead let's look into quantification of how fast summoning is in the main material.
As the profiles state "Artificial Sacred Ground only lasts a maximum of 10 minutes", which means after 10 minutes you have to completely restart your summoning. Yet Kyousuke, Biondetta and other high tier summoners can reach the White Queen via the regular method in that time and still have leeway for some talking. So let's say they can bring her out in 9 minutes.
Before they bring her out they have to, by the rules, summon 100 Regulation-class Materials and 50 Divine-class Materials, so at least 150 in total, likely more.
9 Minutes are 540 seconds. 540 seconds / 150 summons = 3.6 seconds per summon. So, on average, a new Material gets summoned every 3.6 seconds.
In reality that average is of course somewhat skewered. The weaker Materials typically summoned at the start tend to have short names (as low a 1 letter), so those are likely summoned faster than every 3.6 seconds. Meanwhile, towards the end the materials have long names (as long as 21 letters) so those would take longer between summons than 3.6 seconds.
An important consideration to take away from the above is that the opposing team is on a timer. The White Queen will just immediately win once she is summoned, but it takes around 9 minutes to do that. So if the opposing team wishes to win, it has to win in the first 9 minutes of the fight. Most fight in this tournament won't take so long, so I don't think it's that relevant of a wincon. However, it is to be kept in mind. Stalling tactics will backfire.
Regulation-Class:
Summoning in Detail
Alright, time for the full long explanation of how summoning works.For a start, let me simply post the official short explanation of how summoning works. I figure the pictures may help~
And now my explanation, which adds a few relevant details:
So, the battle will begin with Biondetta, and possibly also Kyousuke, throwing a holy hand grenade. Once it explodes, the summoning can start. Biondetta has a wireless trigger for her grenade in her teeth, so she can make it explode without the regular grenade delay.
Once the summoning starts the summoners get their protective circle which, for the purposes of this battle, makes them invulnerable. However, as the quick guide above already mentions, should you destroy the silhouette, a core found in all summoned beings, the summoner of said summon gets incapped. So beating the summon is the win con in a battle against summoners.
So how does one summon things? Well, it involves 3D billiard. There is a stick called Bloodsign, which is basically a billiard cue. Then there are floating balls called Thorns, which equate to the balls you want to hit in billiard. Thorns are intangible to everything but the Bloodsign. And then there are a bunch of other floating balls called Petals. Petals can only be hit using the Thorns. Petals are the balls you actually want to get into the pockets. The pockets are 36 random locations, which are called Spots.
So to reiterate: You use the Bloodsign stick, to hit the Thorn balls, so that they bounce against the Petal balls, to make them drop into the Spot pockets. That earns you a Petal.
What do you do with the Petals you earned? You summon things with them. How? Each Petal is engraved with one letter of the alphabet. In principle, all you need to do is to spell out the name of the summon you wish to summon, which uses up the letters in the name in exchange. Summons are referred to as Materials btw.
There are some restrictions on how to do this, though. There are two ways of summoning and the explanation in the pictures only explains the basic common version. So let's start with that as well:
For the usual method of summoning you just need to have petals with the letters corresponding to the name of a Material. You are allowed to select letters from those you have and rearrange them as you please. All that's important is that you have collected all the needed letters by launching Petals into Spots.
For example, let's say you collect the following Petals in the following order: h, c, o, n, p, b.
Having these letters in your stock, would allow you to summon the Ramming Fish, whose real name is "nh – cb", simply because n, h, c and b are letters which you have.
There is a restriction on which Materials you can summon when, though. At first you can only summon Regulation-class Materials. After 100 of those have been summoned you can also summon Divine-class Materials. After 50 of those have been summoned, all Materials can be summoned without restriction (aside from needing the corresponding letters), i.e. everything listed here can be summoned.
The second method is rarely used, as it is a high-risk high-reward strategy, which almost always fails against a good summoner. The above restriction, that 100 Regulation-class Materials need to be summoned before Divine-class Materials, and 50 Divine-class Materials before the rest can be summoned, can be bypassed using this method.
The entire requirement is that the letters you collected using the Petals need to exactly spell out the name of the Material you wish to summon, in exactly the right order and with no excess letters.
So, as an example, say we want to summon the Divine-class Material Odin (whose real name is Odin) as our very first summon. If you had collected the letters d, i, o and n, in that order, it wouldn't work. We have the right letters, but we may not rearrange them.
If we had the letters o, d, h, i, n, in that order, it likewise wouldn't work, as the letters are in the right order, but we have a letter too much.
Only if we collect the letters o, d, i and n, in that exact order and only those, can Odin be immediately summoned.
Why is the second method rarely used? Two reasons:
- It's slow. Simply bouncing in the Petals that are in the currently best position is much faster than having to search for just the one right letter you need right now and getting only that exact letter in. Chances are, an opposing summoner would defeat your summon before you even finish. (Note that powerful things tend to have longer names... exceptions apply)
- It's easy to mess up and interfere with. Imagine you are trying to summon something with 20 letters. You are 16 in and somewhere a Petal that has been floating around at random happens to land in a Spot on its own. All your effort is wasted. And if an opposing summoner notices what you are doing they can easily interfere. All they need to do is block your vision, alter your swing a little or make the Petals bounce around in a bothersome way. As long as they can make you mess up just enough for you to accidentally knock a Petal in that you didn't want, they can easily prevent your attempt.
What makes Summoners hard to beat?
We have established how to beat a summoner in the prior explanation, let's talk about what makes summoners strong.- Versatility: Summoners have a huge toolbox of summons that they can switch between. They do so rapidly. Every few seconds their opponents face a new monster with its own attacks, abilities and fighting style. Needless to say, it's easy to get surprised here and extremely hard to adapt to it.
- Full Restores: Summoners only have one summon active at a time. When they summon a new one it replaces the old summon. This effectively results in a complete healing every time a new Material is summoned. Not just wounds would be completely gone, but even if you poison or curse the current Summon, the new one is a whole different being dragged in from a different world, so they would not share those conditions. You only need to destroy the core inside the summon to win, but you need to destroy it very fast or all your progress is reset.
Notice how on page three we have Yamata no Orochi (or maybe a Hydra) who would be Divine-class, meaning that the first 100 summons are done. On the second to last page, we already have the summoning of the White Queen, the strongest of all Materials.
Given, that's just to give a visual impression. While written by the author it's not part of the canon of the main series. So instead let's look into quantification of how fast summoning is in the main material.
As the profiles state "Artificial Sacred Ground only lasts a maximum of 10 minutes", which means after 10 minutes you have to completely restart your summoning. Yet Kyousuke, Biondetta and other high tier summoners can reach the White Queen via the regular method in that time and still have leeway for some talking. So let's say they can bring her out in 9 minutes.
Before they bring her out they have to, by the rules, summon 100 Regulation-class Materials and 50 Divine-class Materials, so at least 150 in total, likely more.
9 Minutes are 540 seconds. 540 seconds / 150 summons = 3.6 seconds per summon. So, on average, a new Material gets summoned every 3.6 seconds.
In reality that average is of course somewhat skewered. The weaker Materials typically summoned at the start tend to have short names (as low a 1 letter), so those are likely summoned faster than every 3.6 seconds. Meanwhile, towards the end the materials have long names (as long as 21 letters) so those would take longer between summons than 3.6 seconds.
An important consideration to take away from the above is that the opposing team is on a timer. The White Queen will just immediately win once she is summoned, but it takes around 9 minutes to do that. So if the opposing team wishes to win, it has to win in the first 9 minutes of the fight. Most fight in this tournament won't take so long, so I don't think it's that relevant of a wincon. However, it is to be kept in mind. Stalling tactics will backfire.
Notable Summons
Let me list the summons I think are important.Regulation-Class:
- Original Yellow / Original Green / Original Red: These three Materials are just slime monsters. They are what will almost certainly be summoned first, simply because they cost only a single letter (s, k or b).
- The Dead that Burns with a Curse: This Material needs 7 letters to summon. It is important as it's the earliest thing that can be summoned and has some form of hax. It's official description is: "A mass of flames unable to maintain a human form any longer that burns with the curse it created itself and constantly changes between 7 different colors. Whosoever is taken inside that mass producer of negative emotions will swell out from within until they burst." While that is hax, remember that inside the body is also the core which can be destroyed to win the battle. So actually using the hax seems very risky.
- Jewel Flies that Draw out Dark Desire: This Material needs 14 letters to summon. This is notable, because it has actually good hax. Here's the description: "A storm of thousands and tens of thousands of flies, each of which is a beautiful and colorful jewel. That colorful monster’s light grasps and draws in its prey’s soul, brushing it aside will cover you with countless pathogens, and the victim is decorated with psychedelic mold."
- Greedy Demon-Devouring Spider: Also cost of 14. Has some minor hax at least. "A brutal, three meter spider colored red and black. Rather than spinning a web for an indirect attack, it directly attacks its prey and injects digestive fluids with its fangs to melt the enemy Material from within."
- The Serpent that Coils in a Spiral and Wholly Devours: This Material costs 21 letters and as such is a Regulation-class as expensive as the White Queen. In exchange, you get decent hax: "An already long snake that wraps its own body like a spring or coil to transform into an even thicker and stronger serpent. At the same time, each of its shiny scales are created from collections of tiny snakes. On the macro level, it grows larger and larger. On the micro level, it grows smaller and smaller. It's like throwing the human mind into a world of infinite opposing mirrors, or like a supercomputer hanging up as it tries to simulate out every last one of the explosive number of possible moves in a game of go. It swallows up the mind of any who see it, so they freeze in place and cannot avoid the next attack, guaranteeing a critical hit."
- Bubbling Gears that Bring Aging and Reap Lifespans: Costing 22 letters this thing would take extraordinarily long to summon. It gives some good hax, though. "A collection of countless gears of varying size and one of the most inorganic Materials. This bizarre ****** sends the grinding sound of its interlocking gears slipping into the target’s ears, which causes them to rapidly age like some kind of curse."
- Shark King that Swims through the Ocean of the Void in a Vortex of Purple Electricity: With a cost of 25 letters this is probably not worth it... but I wanted to show that I also have some hot stuff! "A man-eating shark the size of a semi truck that swims freely through the air. Each time its razor-sharp teeth bit down, bluish-white sparks flow and the target is thoroughly shredded with extreme temperatures exceeding those of an arc welder."
- Asp: Costs only 3 letters, yet already some hax... well, it is a Divine-Class that can usually only be summoned 100 summons in after all. "An extremely venomous snake that puts its prey to sleep with its gaze and then finishes them off with its unavoidable venomous fangs. This precision-guided assassin can be controlled by a curse and sent after the desired target."
- Set: 3 letters as well. "A black god who rules over thirst which symbolizes death in the desert, his silhouette can crumble into a deadly mist that dries up everything it touches."
- Waltraute: This one is more expensive, costing 7 letters to summon. You get invisibility in return. "The fourth of the nine Valkyrie sisters in Norse Mythology. Her name means courage on the battlefield. She wields a long cross spear and a diamond-shaped shield. The legends state that Fourth Sister Waltraute had escaped detection by the gods to visit Eldest Sister Brunhild and tell her of a threat to the world, and she is indeed able to vanish into thin air, turning invisible."
- The Ashen Shrine Maiden who Invites Merciful and Dignified Death: Costs 21, so no real reason to summon her. Still, soul hax.
- The Spirit of the Fluttering Yellow Gills that Rules the Heavens: One of the three strongest Materials, the WQ and CLG not considered. The cheapest amongst them, costing only 16 letters. Has good illusion hax / dream hax. As Kyousuke doesn't like to summon the White Queen in-character, this would be one of the two options for his "ultimate" summon.
- The Red-Eyed Lady who Sees Through all Sin and Calamity: One of the three strongest Materials, the WQ and CLG not considered. The most expensive amongst them, costing 20 letters. Has strong destiny and precog hax. This is the second option for Kyousuke's "ultimate" summon.
- The White Queen who Wields the Sword of Unsullied Truth: Costing 21 letters, she is amongst the most expensive Materials. In exchange, she is easily the strongest of all. As mentioned before, if she gets summoned that ends the battle as far as this tournament is concerned. Biondetta's ultimate summon.
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Now, with the general facts out of the way, let's analyze the fight in particular.
First things first, the elementals of course can't harm summoners with their protective circle. So they need to defeat the summons to win.
Between their resistances and physiology, the elementals are actually difficult opponents. None of the hax the early appearing Regulation class has would be effective against them, from what I see. The earliest summon with some noteworthy hax would be Waltraute with her invisibility.
That said, it's not like the Elementals are immune to damage even early on. All Materials can fight the likes of ghosts, so their attacks should do damage.
Now, Ragnaros' heat would seem like a concern. At least to those Materials that doesn't have projectiles. However, remember that Materials get replaced in seconds. They can punch him and their arm can burn off in exchange, it hardly matters. Limbs are, in practice, disposal goods.
Of course, the regulation class is also the cheapest one. Many Materials in it can be summoned with 1 to 4 letters, while later on Materials cost around 20 letters. So while 3.6 seconds is an average, the early Materials can likely be exchanged in a fraction of a second.
I should also note that Materials can in fact be summoned multiple times and that doing so does completely restore them. (It's avatar business)
So, overall, I don't see them killing Materials fast enough to destroy their cores early on, especially once Kyousuke and Biondetta start counterpicking. They need to spend some resources on interfering with their summoning, too. This battle should take several minutes, in which neither side can finish the other.
Ultimately, I see this battle going all the way into the Unexplored-class, at which point hax that the Elementals don't resist starts to appear. That should then finish them off, ending in a win for the Summoners.
First things first, the elementals of course can't harm summoners with their protective circle. So they need to defeat the summons to win.
Between their resistances and physiology, the elementals are actually difficult opponents. None of the hax the early appearing Regulation class has would be effective against them, from what I see. The earliest summon with some noteworthy hax would be Waltraute with her invisibility.
That said, it's not like the Elementals are immune to damage even early on. All Materials can fight the likes of ghosts, so their attacks should do damage.
Now, Ragnaros' heat would seem like a concern. At least to those Materials that doesn't have projectiles. However, remember that Materials get replaced in seconds. They can punch him and their arm can burn off in exchange, it hardly matters. Limbs are, in practice, disposal goods.
Of course, the regulation class is also the cheapest one. Many Materials in it can be summoned with 1 to 4 letters, while later on Materials cost around 20 letters. So while 3.6 seconds is an average, the early Materials can likely be exchanged in a fraction of a second.
I should also note that Materials can in fact be summoned multiple times and that doing so does completely restore them. (It's avatar business)
So, overall, I don't see them killing Materials fast enough to destroy their cores early on, especially once Kyousuke and Biondetta start counterpicking. They need to spend some resources on interfering with their summoning, too. This battle should take several minutes, in which neither side can finish the other.
Ultimately, I see this battle going all the way into the Unexplored-class, at which point hax that the Elementals don't resist starts to appear. That should then finish them off, ending in a win for the Summoners.
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Yeah uh... Ragnaros can in-character turn the entire battlefield into a hazard with Al'akir. We're talking poptart the summons with him lol
Especially when Al'akir gets serious or annoyed, Ever deal with a flame hurricane hot enough to burn and quickly kill folks who can swim in lava? Assuming Ragnaros' heat is dialed back. If it isn't anything properly hit by it is getting vaporized. So yeah it's getting dialed back
Especially when Al'akir gets serious or annoyed, Ever deal with a flame hurricane hot enough to burn and quickly kill folks who can swim in lava? Assuming Ragnaros' heat is dialed back. If it isn't anything properly hit by it is getting vaporized. So yeah it's getting dialed back
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I mean, temperature isn't really independent of AP to begin with, in the sense that lowering AP of a flame necessarily lowers its temperature and vice versa.
That aside, a DoT effect on the battlefield sure is nice, but of course counteracted by the fact that the summons don't get more than at best a few seconds of that damage before they get swapped out.
There are also some summons they could pick that should have some resistance to the heat on grounds of being covered in fire by default. Like the giant serpent wrapped in flames or the Predatory Fire which is a skull covered in flames. Maybe Prometheus as well.
The Dead that Burns with a Curse should be pretty much completely unaffected on account of being just fire.
That aside, a DoT effect on the battlefield sure is nice, but of course counteracted by the fact that the summons don't get more than at best a few seconds of that damage before they get swapped out.
There are also some summons they could pick that should have some resistance to the heat on grounds of being covered in fire by default. Like the giant serpent wrapped in flames or the Predatory Fire which is a skull covered in flames. Maybe Prometheus as well.
The Dead that Burns with a Curse should be pretty much completely unaffected on account of being just fire.
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Rag has literally burned Fire Elementals in the Chronicles, I think he can burn what's essentially an Elemental just fine lol, cause If we really want to go into it, he and Al'akir can pop someone comparable in those seconds with massive attacks push comes to shove
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