Endou Kousuke (Arifureta) vs Shigara Masami (The Unexplored Summon://Blood Sign) - Battle For 2nd Strongest 8-B (Non-Smurf)

[Expectro2000xxx]

SBA, speed equal, Kousuke last key is used.

Kousuke: 0
vs
Shigara: 0
Inco: 0

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, Masami leads with creating a galaxy level forcefield and summons the WQ, who in turn probably just nukes. What does Kousuke do?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Kousuke have various things, amps that can make him reach MFTL+ (the amps can also make him reach tier 5 but since Shigara hace tier 3 things the ap part can be ignored), fear and madness hax that can affect people with layers of resistance, law and concept (type 2) based gravity, spatial, time and mind manip, an infinite amount of resurrections with time manip, infinite energy. He also have his wife Yaya no Hidzuki/Shuten Douji who is an abstract being that protect and fight with him.

But the main thing about Kousuke is his presence, all his life since even before get in contact with magic he had a natural weak presence that made others forget his existence and not notice his presence even if he was right besides them or in front of them. Until this point it seem a bit similar to what summoners seem to do (although I would argue that Kousuke stealth still was superior since even when people were looking at him they forgot him), but after obtain magic and train as a assassin his stealth become far stronger, through the light novel he was developing futher his stealth (in the Orcus Labyrinth there are 100 floors with monsters on each level having a better level of stealth than the previous layer monsters, Kousuke stealth was far above all of them) but in the after stories it reached a new level in which it is stated that his stealth is a erasure of existence (at this point not only a super AI naturally forget him, but even an abstract being with the conception of stealth had a inferior stealth than him), so Shigara should be not only unable to notice him but even remember his existence. Additionally, even people with layers of memory manip resistance can forget him and people with really strong senses can't notice him, so is likely more the case.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The protective circle would negate memory manipulation of those inside.
And she might summon the WQ anyway. She isn't a genius for nothing, so she would still deduce to be in a fight and stuff, from what she had been doing before she forgot. If the WQ is summoned she can likely also regain that information by synchronizing with the nigh-omniscient Wisdom.
All of what you said wouldn't really stop the WQ from just nuking the battlefield. Once she does there is no resurrecting, as all of her abilities have a powerful anti-resurrection effect. Time reversal based resurrection is included in that. (in fact, nothing the queen does can be undone via time or causality based abilities)
The WQ also has a powernull aura, which probably would just disable all of Kousuke's abilities.
And he might just lose to the Queen's passive Charisma (social influencing) the instant she is summoned.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The protective circle would negate memory manipulation of those inside.
And she might summon the WQ anyway. She isn't a genius for nothing, so she would still deduce to be in a fight and stuff, from what she had been doing before she forgot. If the WQ is summoned she can likely also regain that information by synchronizing with the nigh-omniscient Wisdom.
All of what you said wouldn't really stop the WQ from just nuking the battlefield. Once she does there is no resurrecting, as all of her abilities have a powerful anti-resurrection effect. Time reversal based resurrection is included in that. (in fact, nothing the queen does can be undone via time or causality based abilities)
The WQ also has a powernull aura, which probably would just disable all of Kousuke's abilities.
And he might just lose to the Queen's passive Charisma (social influencing) the instant she is summoned.

Why would null memory manip? Specially when said memory manip work on people with memory manip resistance (even law and concept based memory manip resistance).

The anti-resurrection part is more or less fair, though could not work since Hajime upgraded his things to work even against anti-healing able to negate time based powers. Have she also countered concept based time powers? Because the automatic resurrection of Kousuke is done with ancient magic, specifically restoration magic, which is law and concept based hax.

Kousuke resist layers of Power Nullification, again law and concept based since his Soul Shell is made with ancient magic, specifically speaking spirit magic.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Why would null memory manip? Specially when said memory manip work on people with memory manip resistance (even law and concept based memory manip resistance).

Mostly due to being 3-C tbh. Given, that circle is made to resist influence from the laws governing the universe, which should include mental aspects. (we know of at least one that is the source of a mental aspect)

The anti-resurrection part is more or less fair, though could not work since Hajime upgraded his things to work even against anti-healing able to negate time based powers. Have she also countered concept based time powers? Because the automatic resurrection of Kousuke is done with ancient magic, specifically restoration magic, which is law and concept based hax.

Has negated law based resurrection at least. Concept not as much, but if it's just part of the mechanism it shouldn't matter, I think? Like, the if the WQ does something it becomes a fixed point in time and the laws of time and causality will alter themselves to not change it. So even if he reverses time via concept manip, after time is reversed the thing would probably still happen since time will again adjust itself for the Queen's convenience.
Would be a different story if it overwrites the concept of time to make it specifically alter the outcome, I guess.

Should also mention that the WQs attack erase souls and information.

Kousuke resist layers of Power Nullification, again law and concept based since his Soul Shell is made with ancient magic, specifically speaking spirit magic.

Has he ever countered anything close to 3-C powernull, though? Being able to resist Tier 8 powernull doesn't mean much against 3-C one.


And, as said, there is always the Charisma.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Want to say some things but first of all, why would matter ap to haxs?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

pretty sure her charisma won't do anything, alot of the characters can do that with spirit magic (law and CM type 2) the necklace protect him from that

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, besides the fact that he normally face characters able to create whole religions at a world level with their natural charisma (most of the time without even wanting and actively not desiring that), there is also the charisma part of spirit magic that he resist that you mentioned but first of all I want to hear why would ap matter to hax.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

First Bump.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Want to say some things but first of all, why would matter ap to haxs?

If you cast a spell with 5 MP and someone just takes away the 5 MP then the spell doesn't work, regardless of what the effect was.
I.e. as long as something is powered with some sort of supernatural power, negating the power behind it does the trick.

pretty sure her charisma won't do anything, alot of the characters can do that with spirit magic (law and CM type 2) the necklace protect him from that

That sounds like supernatural charisma, though. I.e. a charm effect. WQs stuff is pure natural social influencing, not something that forcefully tricks the mind. It's in essence not different than finding someone naturally attractive but boosted to extreme degrees.

I mean, besides the fact that he normally face characters able to create whole religions at a world level with their natural charisma (most of the time without even wanting and actively not desiring that), there is also the charisma part of spirit magic that he resist that you mentioned but first of all I want to hear why would ap matter to hax.

The WQ is on the religion level and beyond (literally keeps spawning groups of (sometimes fanatical) worshippers without wanting to). She can take a casual walk through the streets and people will start to worship the dirt below her feet. Even professional warriors and the summoners that deal with the actual gods humanity's religions are based on on a daily level submit to her charisma.
In fact, Kyousuke is said to have to be careful to not submit to it and
1. He was raised from the beginning of his life by a genius with some pretty extreme methods to be a "precision guided missle". I.e. he is conditioned to never abandon his goal and that goal is to kill the WQ. He has immense willpower.
2. He himself is an extraordinary genius. (if one considers that to matter)
3. He is absolutely bloodlusted against the WQ because she killed what he considered his family... twice.

 

[Noneless21]

Wait a moment, we don't indexing layers of hax that way? Pretty sure we give a character layers of hax/resistance by showcasing them overpowering other character that has resistance/hax unless there's more caveat to it

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

If you cast a spell with 5 MP and someone just takes away the 5 MP then the spell doesn't work, regardless of what the effect was.
I.e. as long as something is powered with some sort of supernatural power, negating the power behind it does the trick.

??? Sorry, but I'm not understanding what you are saying and the relaptionship between that with ap mattering to hax.

The WQ is on the religion level and beyond (literally keeps spawning groups of (sometimes fanatical) worshippers without wanting to). She can take a casual walk through the streets and people will start to worship the dirt below her feet. Even professional warriors and the summoners that deal with the actual gods humanity's religions are based on on a daily level submit to her charisma.
In fact, Kyousuke is said to have to be careful to not submit to it and
1. He was raised from the beginning of his life by a genius with some pretty extreme methods to be a "precision guided missle". I.e. he is conditioned to never abandon his goal and that goal is to kill the WQ. He has immense willpower.
2. He himself is an extraordinary genius. (if one considers that to matter)
3. He is absolutely bloodlusted against the WQ because she killed what he considered his family... twice.

The people around him literally do that naturally without wanting. Like Aiko explicitly don't like to be worshsiped and be treated as special and still the world around her created a religion which is currently one of the greatest one in the world of Tortus. Liliana without wanting and don't even understanding how it happened become do to her charisma the goddess of a new religion that currently vie in equal footing with christianism. Shizuku have a sect of crazy fanaticts called the Soul Sisters which have spread through various worlds. And more things of this level, Kousuke interact normally around this type of characters as if nothing.

In Arifureta a lot of characters have supernatural willpower (like, a lot), the type that even grant resistances and abilitites, and Kousuke is considered one of the characters with the strongest will in the verse (reason to why currently he have even become one of the three main protagonist of the after stories).

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

If you cast a spell with 5 MP and someone just takes away the 5 MP then the spell doesn't work, regardless of what the effect was.
I.e. as long as something is powered with some sort of supernatural power, negating the power behind it does the trick

It doesn't work like that

 

[DontTalkDT]

Wait a moment, we don't indexing layers of hax that way? Pretty sure we give a character layers of hax/resistance by showcasing them overpowering other character that has resistance/hax unless there's more caveat to it

In what way? Like, we mostly talking power null-like here (or whatever you want to classify producing a forcefield that can protect against hax).

I mean, in general, things always need to be compared based on mechanism. That higher tier anti-hax techniques prevent low-tier techniques from working is not that unusual. Many factors go into hax potency interactions.

??? Sorry, but I'm not understanding what you are saying and the relaptionship between that with ap mattering to hax.

Don't know what is so unclear tbh. If a technique needs power to function then negating the power in the technique stops it from functioning.

If that technique requires no power or something then tell me, I don't know the mechanisms involved in his stuff.

The people around him literally do that naturally without wanting. Like Aiko explicitly don't like to be worshsiped and be treated as special and still the world around her created a religion which is currently one of the greatest one in the world of Tortus. Liliana without wanting and don't even understanding how it happened become do to her charisma the goddess of a new religion that currently vie in equal footing with christianism. Shizuku have a sect of crazy fanaticts called the Soul Sisters which have spread through various worlds. And more things of this level, Kousuke interact normally around this type of characters as if nothing.

In Arifureta a lot of characters have supernatural willpower (like, a lot), the type that even grant resistances and abilitites, and Kousuke is considered one of the characters with the strongest will in the verse (reason to why currently he have even become one of the three main protagonist of the after stories).

Yeah, but as said, religion without even trying isn't even an impressive level when compared to the WQ. She does that stuff and more. Heck, the gods themselves don't fight her.

Like, would those characters also instantly get worshipped if just walking around? Can they easily ensnare strong-willed characters that are bloodlusted against them?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

In what way? Like, we mostly talking power null-like here (or whatever you want to classify producing a forcefield that can protect against hax).

I mean, in general, things always need to be compared based on mechanism. That higher tier anti-hax techniques prevent low-tier techniques from working is not that unusual. Many factors go into hax potency interactions.

I can understand the barrier part blocking attacks up to 3-C tier, that is pretty clear, is also easy to understand that it protect against haxs, but what I (and likely others) don't understand is why that would mean that is needed a say tier 3-C soul manip to affect the person inside the barrier instead of a soul manip with x layers. Like the only times when I think people have see the tier mattering to a hax potency is when said hax come from a higher d.

Don't know what is so unclear tbh. If a technique needs power to function then negating the power in the technique stops it from functioning.

If that technique requires no power or something then tell me, I don't know the mechanisms involved in his stuff.

Hope that with the above part I could explain what is confusing/unclear, though I'm not sure if I worded the explanation well enough. I can also understand the logic about negating the power behing a thing technique stopping it from work, but that seems like ignoring the layers itself involved in the potency of the hax and I also don't remember other threads were people said that the powernull of z tier is stronger than b do to their ap instead of the layers of said powernull. Additionally, Kousuke have literally speaking an infinite amount of energy at his disposition thanks to his necklace, so if you really want to go with that argument then the barrier would need to powernull said infinite energy.

In the case of the memory and stealth from Kousuke there is no power or enegy involved, in the verse there exist several different types of uniques energies (more than seven at least if also counting things like conception and the origin of all energies) with several more power systems, however Kousuke thing don't fall under any of them, is a natural superpower that the most knowledgeables of the verse can't explain at all, it just happen and affect things regardles of their stuff.

Yeah, but as said, religion without even trying isn't even an impressive level when compared to the WQ. She does that stuff and more. Heck, the gods themselves don't fight her.

Like, would those characters also instantly get worshipped if just walking around? Can they easily ensnare strong-willed characters that are bloodlusted against them?

They are worshipped just by walking around, like they walk around and people literally beging to have serious accidents do to get charmed by them (that is the reason to why the use most of the time artifacts that hide their presence, Kousuke himself need use his active stealth as asssassin to hide Hidzuki because otherwise everything turn chaotic in the surroundings). Not exactly bloodlusted but Aiko for example turned elite knights from the chruch send to control her in her followers without even noticing.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I can understand the barrier part blocking attacks up to 3-C tier, that is pretty clear, is also easy to understand that it protect against haxs, but what I (and likely others) don't understand is why that would mean that is needed a say tier 3-C soul manip to affect the person inside the barrier instead of a soul manip with x layers. Like the only times when I think people have see the tier mattering to a hax potency is when said hax come from a higher d.

Basically for the reason mentioned in the power null. If you shoot a soul hax mana bullet and the mana is negated will the soul hax reach? If we are dealing with pure soul hax with no medium to get negated it would be different, though, yeah.

Hope that with the above part I could explain what is confusing/unclear, though I'm not sure if I worded the explanation well enough. I can also understand the logic about negating the power behing a thing technique stopping it from work, but that seems like ignoring the layers itself involved in the potency of the hax and I also don't remember other threads were people said that the powernull of z tier is stronger than b do to their ap instead of the layers of said powernull. Additionally, Kousuke have literally speaking an infinite amount of energy at his disposition thanks to his necklace, so if you really want to go with that argument then the barrier would need to powernull said infinite energy.

Well, I don't know about other threads. I also don't know how powers in other threads worked. But generally power should be a relevant factor, given the explained consideration. I mean, we also do the opposite: We don't assume you can negate a power much stronger than you have demonstrated. So yeah, I would say it depends.

What infinite energy is concerned... given that he isn't High 3-A I assume that's more of an infinite power source than something with infinite power output. An eternal battery of 5 watt, so to say. Given that, I would suspect the WQs negation over time is greater than the power output over time of that.

In the case of the memory and stealth from Kousuke there is no power or enegy involved, in the verse there exist several different types of uniques energies (more than seven at least if also counting things like conception and the origin of all energies) with several more power systems, however Kousuke thing don't fall under any of them, is a natural superpower that the most knowledgeables of the verse can't explain at all, it just happen and affect things regardles of their stuff.

Well, then that would probably not get negated. However, both characters have experience with such phenomena (the WQ once erased all information about Kyousuke's sister) and are geniuses that would be able to reason his presence, even if not remember it. And I would argue Wisdom arguably knows, too, due to cosmic awareness.

WQ has enough AoE that she won't need to aim her powers, so fundamentally I think

They are worshipped just by walking around, like they walk around and people literally beging to have serious accidents do to get charmed by them (that is the reason to why the use most of the time artifacts that hide their presence, Kousuke himself need use his active stealth as asssassin to hide Hidzuki because otherwise everything turn chaotic in the surroundings). Not exactly bloodlusted but Aiko for example turned elite knights from the chruch send to control her in her followers without even noticing.

Gotta say, being a threat to Kyousuke still sounds more impressive than that.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Basically for the reason mentioned in the power null. If you shoot a soul hax mana bullet and the mana is negated will the soul hax reach? If we are dealing with pure soul hax with no medium to get negated it would be different, though, yeah.

Guess that have sense to some point, however idon't really know how effective would be in this concrete case since Kousuke resist powerful and various of his abilitites (like the mind manip for example) work on levels that I don't know if the barrier have nulled (specifically speaking conceptual levels, since I at least suppose the barrier have nulled before law based powers based on some descriptions of the profile powers), on top of the layers involved in the hax.

Well, I don't know about other threads. I also don't know how powers in other threads worked. But generally power should be a relevant factor, given the explained consideration. I mean, we also do the opposite: We don't assume you can negate a power much stronger than you have demonstrated. So yeah, I would say it depends.

What infinite energy is concerned... given that he isn't High 3-A I assume that's more of an infinite power source than something with infinite power output. An eternal battery of 5 watt, so to say. Given that, I would suspect the WQs negation over time is greater than the power output over time of that.

Generally speaking while yes we don't consider you can negate things much stronger than what you have demostrated that is more when said thing work in a deeper level of have higher layers instead of base it in ap (unless of course is higher d).

I mean, the idea of something like for example mind manip or soul manip High 3-A is a bit weird since technically speaking even a baseline mind/soul manip could do that with enough range.

I would consider that between his layers of resistance to powernull, along with the nature of said resistance be conceptual in nature, he should be able to resist getting his haxs nulled. Also, have the barrier ever nulled an abstract being? Because otherwise Hidzuki can just simply kill her.

Well, then that would probably not get negated. However, both characters have experience with such phenomena (the WQ once erased all information about Kyousuke's sister) and are geniuses that would be able to reason his presence, even if not remember it. And I would argue Wisdom arguably knows, too, due to cosmic awareness.

WQ has enough AoE that she won't need to aim her powers, so fundamentally I think

That sort of thing seem to rely on the idea that she would first summon without any reason (since she can't see nor feel Kousuke, along with not remember him or the existence of said threat) the WQ (or any divine material in general).

Also, if WQ really nuke the planet would Shigara also die? Since she don't seem able to survive in something like space.

Gotta say, being a threat to Kyousuke still sounds more impressive than that.

Just finished to read a chapter in which was reveleaded that the natural charm of one of said characters (Yue) is so great that even if she don't have any power and get turned in somethingas ugly as a goblin other beings will naturally worship and protect until their last moment after just a glance to her (this even when she was ignoring completely the existence of those sacrificing for her).

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Basically for the reason mentioned in the power null. If you shoot a soul hax mana bullet and the mana is negated will the soul hax reach? If we are dealing with pure soul hax with no medium to get negated it would be different, though, yeah.

that is the thing resisting ancient magic work by resisting the concepts themself and not the energy behind it, if it was that simple then it won't be called resistance but just powernull which ARIFURETA characters also resist alongside their magic resistance , also ancient magic ignore magic resistance or other types of energies that's why they are called hax

by the way how does can the characters resist or defeat the WQ in the unexplored summon?

Well, then that would probably not get negated. However, both characters have experience with such phenomena (the WQ once erased all information about Kyousuke's sister) and are geniuses that would be able to reason his presence, even if not remember it. And I would argue Wisdom arguably knows, too, due to cosmic awareness.

Kousuke stealth is more dangerous because even if they tried to reason his existence they will stop and ask "what was I doing again", and forgot that anything happen also It's always active and It's passive, I don't think being a geniuses help you detect him as Hajime who is intelligent and an AI who can
build a portal device from scratch and can also detect magic and other types of energies couldn't understand, predict, sense or remember KOUSUKE

Just finished to read a chapter in which was reveleaded that the natural charm of one of said characters (Yue) is so great that even if she don't have any power and get turned in somethingas ugly as a goblin other beings will naturally worship and protect until their last moment after just a glance to her (this even when she was ignoring completely the existence of those sacrificing for her).

also you remember those glasses Hajime made they weren't able to hide her effect, which make HAJIME wonder if she had some kind concept magic charm, even Myu was affected (short story)

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

What infinite energy is concerned... given that he isn't High 3-A I assume that's more of an infinite power source than something with infinite power output. An eternal battery of 5 watt, so to say. Given that, I would suspect the WQs negation over time is greater than the power output over time of that.

No, there's a difference between infinite and limitless ,the artifact can produce absorb and contain infinite energy (Hajime absorb the energy from the dragon world and EARTH without a problem + Hajime restore the energy of the machine world without a problem, it doesn't matter how much you body can absorb the moment you have the necklace you will be instantly charged, it helped KOUSUKE jump from T6 to T5 instantly without talking about ABYSSLORD that keep increasing his stat and abilities nonstop.

 

[Noneless21]

bump?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, guess Endou probably wins.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Bump
or could this be added to the profile?