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Emprah vs thanos (full powah) ---- Done (inconclusive)

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@Kep

"Calling the argument a false equivalence is a cop-out"

No, that's exactly what it is. I didn't say "Eternity can't punch Thanos in the face without destroying stuff because he's the universe".

Eternity is the embodiment of the universe in his lower manifestations, and the entire multiverse for his true self. Thanos kills and absorbs a version of Eternity, alongside the universe. This explicitly effects one universe. Therefore, this is most likely a universal Eternity. You can't just say "Nuh-uh it was the multiversal one" and not provide evidence. That's not how this works. And again, if there is evidence, the best option is to just post the actual scans of it. Just asserting something as true without context doesn't help anyone.
 
Okay, so what is the Heart of the Universe described as?

Well...

In Marvel: The End, here's what we get. First we get Thanos' own statements in Issue #5, which is fittingly enough titled "Omnipotence".

HOTUSupreme1
HOTUSupreme2
"All the theologians were wrong about divine guidance and heavenly judgment. Supreme Power was nothing less than limitless energy, awaiting the first claimant to come along to wield it. There never had been any All-Father, celestial Supreme Will or Almight Self.
That cosmic equation was now chanced and I reveled in my newfound supremacy. With the Cosmic Cube I had manipulated facets of the divine, a very limited experience. The Infinity Gauntlet had granted me mastery of all Time, Space, Power, Reality, the Mind and the Soul, but it was still external control. Now I was all that was and subservient to none. Supreme!"
This strikingly defines the Heart of the Universe as the power of a supreme, "omnipotent" theological god, as opposed to merely absolute control over a universe (Cosmic Cube, which is strictly Universal+ in scale, albeit some have even 2-A feats), or relatively infinite power (The Infinity Gauntlet, which gives the user infinite control over each Gem's domain within its home universe, rendering even the Abstract Beings infinitely inferior. Even an incomplete Gauntlet casually overpowered the Ultimate Nullifier, a weapon that can erase existence on a High 1-B scale, and not only once threatened to erase Multi-Eternity itself, but also gave God Doom trouble once).

No, the Heart of the Universe is literally meant to be Limitless Power.

This conversation between Thanos and Eternity explains it again:

MarvelTheEndHOTU1
MarvelTheEndHOTU2
MarvelTheEndHOTU3
Look at the quotes:

"For these revelations had shown me the error of certain assumptions on my part. Foremost was the conclusion that the previous almighty had been nothing but mindless energy."
Thanos clearly reaches the conclusion that there was a previous Almighty God, and believes himself to be the new one.

Then Eternity shows up and they talk:

Eternity: Greetings, Usurper. I come to demand you relinquish the Supreme Power you have stole!
Thanos: More like it was given to me.
Eternity: Liar!
Thanos: You actually have no clue as to what truly transpires, do you? Your Lord and Master has abandoned you, Eternity, to a dismal fate. Before you sits your only hope for survival.
Eternity: The acquisition of Omnipotence has obviously driven you madder than you already were, Tita. Surrender the Power!
Thanos: And give it to you; to only make an impossible situation worse? I think not.
Eternity: Do you truly believe the universe will allow you to rule it, Titan? I think not.
Thanos: Indeed? Surely, Eternity you must sense that Everything the Almighty was I now am. Did you ever dare demand anything from Him? :Eternity: No, but...
Thanos: And I, like He was, am now the Author of All that Will Be. My Will is Supreme!
This clearly establishes that the power Thanos now wields is analogue to that of the previous Almighty God, the One-Above-All, even if obviously not complete as it was an a fragment of it. Namely, the aspect of the One-Above-All in the 616 Universe (Hence why it is called the Heart of the Universe).

Thanos even states that he is, by all effects, the new Almighty. And Eternity doesn't deny it, and even hesitates when he tempts it. If Thanos was talking out of his ass Eternity would have immediately pointed it out, but instead Eternity has no counters and just results to anger.

This idea of Thanos being the new Supreme God is re-affirmed again later:

MarvelTheEndHOTU4
"I acted without thought, as if my response were preordained. In restrospect, I once again consider the deviousness of my predecessor. Was this my moment of triumph or but a face of Another's grand plan?"
It is directly implied that everything that went on in the storyline was the will of the One-Above-All, and outright stated that the power he obtained and wielded was a facet of his power.

And as for the Tribunal? Literally nothing in the storyline implies that it was an M-Body. They just say it was the Tribunal. In fact, there is evidence of the contrary.

TopOfTheFoodChain
"So now we hear from the top of the food chain, do we?" - Thanos, upon hearing the Tribunal
Were Thanos being met with a mere M-Body of the Tribunal, he would have realized it with his new Cosmic Awareness that outclassed that of the Abstract Entities, and even of the Tribunal, as none of them realized the cosmic wound in the fabric of the universe Thanos perceived. He'd have no reason to say "Top of the food chain" had him been talking to an infinitesimal manifestation of the Living Tribunal.

Okay, now from other storylines...

HOTU Thanos (2003)
In the Thanos 2003 Miniseries the Heart of the Universe is once again defined as Supreme Power over the universe it is the Heart of.

"To protect myself from them, I searched out and acquired the ultimate in power, The Heart of the Universe. This turned me into the Supreme Being of this reality, its unquestionable master. Yes: God."
The story would be recapped again in The Infinity Revelation, where it was once again described as supreme power:

HOTU Infinity Revelation 1
HOTU Infinity Revelation 2
HOTU Infinity Revelation 3
Thanos: Which is understandable. I was in the process of gaining unimaginable power.
Adam Warlock: Again becoming Omnipotent, in effect transforming into a Supreme Being.
Also in The Infinity Revelation, due to the events of the story, both a version of Adam Warlock and a version of Thanos end up obtaining the Heart of the Universe (The former), and a comparable power source, the Nexus (The later)

GawdWarlock
GawdThanos
Stuff happens, and each makes a universe be remade in their image. The 616 Thanos and Adam have to revert things back to normal. In the new universe, Infinity is found powerless and imprisoned, and she outright states that the situation is beyond The Living Tribunal's control:

HOTU Infinity Revelation 4
Infinity: You strive and endure, and yet the entire universe ends up turning into a cosmic graveyard.
Adam Warlock: Infinity? The Embodiment of Time bound by dead vines?
Infinity: The moment is thus imprisoned throughout the heavens, Adam Warlock. One world of death followed by another. Nihilism triumphs over hope.
Adam Warlock: Why did you and Eternity let this occur?
Infinity: The decision was made on a level even beyond the Living Tribunal's lofty hierarchical station.
And in the end, after the universe returned to normal, and as a result the universes merged. At the end, the Living Tribunal is shown stating that the events that happened were beyond him:

Beyond TLT
Infinity: Can you explain to us exactly what we just went through? And why we had to endure the humiliation of the experience?
Tribunal: No, I cannot. My master has provided no explanation of or reason for the event in which we have just participated. Its purpose is as much a puzzle to me as it is to you.
Finally, in the aptly named Infinity Finale, the One-Above-All outright mentions the Heart of the Universe and explains what it is:

HOTU Infinity Finae
Adam Warlock: Above-All-Others is both male and female?
Thanos: So our senses perceive it from moment to moment.
Adam Warlock: Annoying, is it not?
Thanos: No, truly wondrous. It is, in truth, all things and knows all.
One-Above-All: As you yourself partially perceived during your brief experience with Omni-Reality Perception, Tita.
Thanos: Which allowed me a fragmentary glimpse of your power, perceptions and motivations, Grand One.
So in conclusion:

The Heart of the Universe is a fragment of The-One-Above-All's Omnipotent power contained within... the heart of every universe. If a being is to possess it, they will become in effect a Supreme, "Omnipotent" being themselves.

Granted, it is not quite the same level of power as the One-Above-All itself, but in practicality it might as well be. Even Abstract Entities cannot deny it, and even the Living Tribunal himself is beneath the authority of the being who wields such power, as stated by both Infinity and himself.

High 1-B given its lofty origin and cosmic authority fits.
 
That is an extreme false equivalence when dealing with the literal embodiments of the multiverse, and you know that very well.
YHVH is the embodiment of all of existence and you kill him and existence doesn't collapse, it isn't. There's plenty of series where the main bad guy is like the Abstract Embodiment of Destruction, or Nothingness, or Death, or Chaos. And they are killed but the phenomena still exists. The Hadou Gods from Masadaverse are literally embodiments of all of existence and they can die.

Also, the bulk of your argument deals with "He only absorbed one universe" while ignoring everything else, and acting like that puts a cap in his power. Both powerscaling and further context exist, and the Heart of the Universe is most assuredly not Low 2-C only in potency, as you are implying.

Do you have proof that Thanos couldn't absorb the whole multiverse?

Also the multiverse didn't collapse when he absorbed the Tribunal because the Tribunal wasn't dead. In the end of the story Thanos releases all he absorbed from within himself, including the Heart of the Universe itself. They had all become one with Thanos.
 
@Azzy

There is a scene in The End where Thanos literally meets the Tribunal in person and absolutely nothing there suggests the use of a M-Body. Given his earlier feats with CA, he should've been able to tell the difference, yet there was no such statement.

This enough supports that this is the true Tribunal.

Matt will probably post way more, I'm just going off memory alone.
 
Also, your "multiversal embodiment" argument is literally the same thing as 1-A creators, YHVH and some of the other examples I had previously mentioned. What I said still holds, and yes, "false equivalence" is a cop-out.
 
@Matt

I am very familiar with the scans from The End. However, all they do is show Thanos being called "omnipotent" and "almighty". None of this says the HOTU = High 1-B. We do not use omnipotence or claims of such for any other franchise on the site, and we're not going to do it for Marvel. I am asking for scans from The End that show Thanos affecting the entire multiverse with the HOTU. Considering we're saying he beat true Abstracts, this isn't some "AoE fallacy" claim, but something which is needed due to the very feats we're giving him.

Onto the other stories, as I haven't read these in a significantly longer time.

  • The Thanos 2003 scan once again reaffirms Thanos' supremacy over a single reality, not all of them.
  • The first Infinity Revelation scans just make more claims of "omnipotence", which is not a feat. Furthermore, they even further state that Thanos was affecting a single universe, just like the original The End storyline did.
  • The second set of Infinity Revelation scans even further reaffirm universal scale, making this far more likely to be lower manifestations of these beings.
  • I also have no idea how we would consider "fragmentary perceptions of a Tier 0's power" to be a High 1-B feat.
I'm sorry, but this is not what I asked for. This is repeated claims of "omnipotence" and reaffirmation of events taking place on a universal scale. You are asking me to just accept that he destroyed the full Tribunal and can affect High 1-B reality without providing evidence for it.

"Also, the bulk of your argument deals with "He only absorbed one universe" while ignoring everything else, and acting like that puts a cap in his power. Both powerscaling and further context exist, and the Heart of the Universe is most assuredly not Low 2-C only in potency, as you are implying."

You are not actually listening to my argument. I have not simply said "lol he absorbed one universe, he can't be anything higher". I am asking for you to prove he is higher. If we see him absorb one universe, and we see him absorb Abstracts who are more likely than not the universal versions due to the scale of events, I am asking why we should believe him to be so hilariously beyond this scale.

"Do you have proof that Thanos couldn't absorb the whole multiverse?"

I kind of feel like you're just dicking me around, now. You are well aware this isn't how this works. If you claim "Thanos can destroy the multiverse" and I say "Show me evidence", you can't respond with "Show me he can't". You've been in too many threads and debunked too much bullshit to not know this is a bad argument. Especially because I never claimed "Thanos can't absorb the whole multiverse", but instead "Show me that he can".

"Also the multiverse didn't collapse when he absorbed the Tribunal because the Tribunal wasn't dead. In the end of the story Thanos releases all he absorbed from within himself, including the Heart of the Universe itself. They had all become one with Thanos."

Please show me where it says this, because the story itself implies what was absorbed was destroyed and that Thanos reconstructed it.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Also, your "multiversal embodiment" argument is literally the same thing as 1-A creators, YHVH and some of the other examples I had previously mentioned. What I said still holds, and yes, "false equivalence" is a cop-out.
Click to expand...
Please post the actual examples as opposed to just mentioning characters then asserting I'm some kind of disingenous asshole. If something is supposed to be the multiverse itself, and it is destroyed while showing no adverse effects on the multiverse whatsoever, there are usually two things that follow. The first is that an explanation is provided within the story. The second is that said thing wasn't the full embodiment of the multiverse. In The End, we see Thanos absorb the universe and the embodiment of the universe, followed by repeated statements that he has absorbed the universe. I'm asking you to tell me why this was the embodiment of the multiverse.

I should probably mention that the first sentence is meant in a playful way, because looking back it seems like I'm actually mad with you, which I want to clarify I'm not.
 
@Azzy

"I am very familiar with the scans from The End. However, all they do is show Thanos being called "omnipotent" and "almighty". None of this says the HOTU = High 1-B. We do not use omnipotence or claims of such for any other franchise on the site, and we're not going to do it for Marvel"

Context matters. In this case it differs from other statements of omnipotence because it's made contextually clear that the Heart of the Universe gives you supreme power on a level close to the One-Above-All, on a scale that not even the Living Tribunal can overturn.

"Universal scale"

Again, you relate the setting of the story with power, which is wholly unfounded. This is literally an AOE Fallacy, and ignoring the further context of what makes the HOTU be considered omnipotent.

"The second set of Infinity Revelation scans even further reaffirm universal scale, making this far more likely to be lower manifestations of these beings."

No it doesn't. You don't need to be affecting the whole multiverse to be in contact with or catch the attention of multiversal entities. Nothing in either story implies that it was the "Universal Tribunal", something that doesn't even exist. The full Tribunal has dealt with the 616 Eternity in the past. He doesn't always have to use M-Bodies.

The end of the story outright shows him attempting communicating with the One-Above-All, which wouldn't be a thing if it was a manifestation.

The first storyline, Infinity Revelation, and the Handbook imply heavily and confirm respectively that it was the Full Tribunal. You can't ignore all of this simply because the Heart of the Universe is basically a "Become Omnipotent in this universe" Plot-device. This is the same thing as saying that the Infinity Gauntlet is only Low 2-C for only working on its home universe, when it is canonically superior to a weapon that could have erased Multi-Eternity, and also made God-Emperor Doom strugle.

"I also have no idea how we would consider "fragmentary perceptions of a Tier 0's power" to be a High 1-B feat."

Because it confirms what I have been saying. It is a direct fragment of The-One-Above-All's power, something that no one else in Marvel is. Perhaps you could say that the Living Tribunal is that, but he was just placed in his status by TOAA, he is not a direct extension, and he is worfed all the time to establish "real threats".

Meanwhile the Heart of the Universe is directly a part of the One Above All's power that makes you virtually omnipotent while within the Heart's universe.

It's a matter of range, not AP.

"You are asking me to just accept that he destroyed the full Tribunal"

Because he has. Also Law & Chaos did the same thing, and so did the Beyonders. And in neither case did the multiverse collapse. Because the Tribunal isn't the Multiverse per-say. He is the Embodiment of Law & Hierarchy across the multiverse.

So the argument that "If it was the whole Tribunal everything would go boom" is incoherent with Marvel itself.

"You are not actually listening to my argument. I have not simply said "lol he absorbed one universe, he can't be anything higher". I am asking for you to prove he is higher. If we see him absorb one universe, and we see him absorb Abstracts who are more likely than not the universal versions due to the scale of events"

Neither are you, I would say. We have tons of evidence and statements that the Heart is second to the One-Above-All. We have no reason to believe it is anything but the full Tribunal in either storyline, and it is outright confirmed to be him in the Handbook.

"I kind of feel like you're just dicking me around, now. You are well aware this isn't how this works."

No, but I am kinda serious. You haven't debunked the Heart being High 1-B. You have just go "He only absorbed one universe and is almighty in one universe, so he can't be higher".

Again, it's range and area of influence.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
If something is supposed to be the multiverse itself, and it is destroyed while showing no adverse effects on the multiverse whatsoever, there are usually two things that follow. The first is that an explanation is provided within the story. The second is that said thing wasn't the full embodiment of the multiverse.
Click to expand...
I mean, the Living Tribunal has died four times now without the Multiverse collapsing immediately. That kinda renders the argument null and void for him.
 
1. I posted 4 or 5 different examples. YHVH's name was repeated 5 different times in this thread for a reason.

2. I literally never even remotely asserted you were a disingenuous asshole, I actually spent quite some time rewording my post so it wouldn't possibly come across as offensive. No offense, but Matt and I have posted examples a half-dozen times, and you haven't addressed a single one.

3. Except the conclusion that it isn't the embodiment of the multiverse has no basis. It is the same reason why the literal embodiment of the main universe whose very existence brings orders to other universes and maintains reality can die and cease to exist without the universe collapsing.

In the same manner, in half of the verses where Gaia from Greek Mythology is a character and a villain, her death never results in anything at all. She embodies the Earth, but literally nothing happens to Earth. This is especially relevant to this thread because it ties in with the plot armor I've been arguing for hours.
 
@Kep

1. I said "please post the full examples". You just told me that YHVH died. However, what's the context? Because at one point after dying, he was replaced. This is what I said about an explanation being provided.

2. I feel like you didn't see the strike-through addition at the bottom of my comment, though that may be my fault. Again, I asked for full context. Not just to name names.

3. Except as I've said, there are numerous Eternities that embody universes. This discussion wouldn't even be happening if Eternity is a character who had only ever shown to be all of existence in the multiverse and that's it.

As with Gaia, and as I asked for before, what is the context? Because I mentioned before that these are usually either given some sort of explanation or said character isn't actually the entire thing they embody.
 
@Azzy

1. YHVH is repeatedly stated to be the full-embodiment of everything since the beginning of the series but even after dying without being replaced, reality doesn't collapse. Because he embodies everything and is one with everything, but the relationship between him and reality is mutual and not completely direct. Also because the nature of how reality works under SMT means that YHVH can be the embodiment of everything until he's not, and then everything won't need an embodiment.

3. Nobody is talking about Eternity, though. Also, 616 Eternity has met the full Tribunal in 16th Dimensional space, giving precedence to the full Tribunal being involved in these things that relate to single universes.

Hell, She-Hulk has talked to the full Tribunal. It doesn't have to be a full-on multiversal collapse to warrant his attention.

Also, Tribunal died four times including Marvel: The End. Multiverse is fine.

Finally, what is your answer to the Heart of the Universe being infinitely superior to both the Ultimate Nullifier and the Infinity Gauntlet, which both have High 1-B feats (Not saying they definitely are High 1-B, but the feats are there).
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Azzy
Context matters. In this case it differs from other statements of omnipotence because it's made contextually clear that the Heart of the Universe gives you supreme power on a level close to the One-Above-All, on a scale that not even the Living Tribunal can overturn.

Again, you relate the setting of the story with power, which is wholly unfounded. This is literally an AOE Fallacy, and ignoring the further context of what makes the HOTU be considered omnipotent.

No it doesn't. You don't need to be affecting the whole multiverse to be in contact with or catch the attention of multiversal entities. Nothing in either story implies that it was the "Universal Tribunal", something that doesn't even exist. The full Tribunal has dealt with the 616 Eternity in the past. He doesn't always have to use M-Bodies.

The end of the story outright shows him attempting communicating with the One-Above-All, which wouldn't be a thing if it was a manifestation.

The first storyline, Infinity Revelation, and the Handbook imply heavily and confirm respectively that it was the Full Tribunal. You can't ignore all of this simply because the Heart of the Universe is basically a "Become Omnipotent in this universe" Plot-device. This is the same thing as saying that the Infinity Gauntlet is only Low 2-C for only working on its home universe, when it is canonically superior to a weapon that could have erased Multi-Eternity, and also made God-Emperor Doom strugle.

Because it confirms what I have been saying. It is a direct fragment of The-One-Above-All's power, something that no one else in Marvel is. Perhaps you could say that the Living Tribunal is that, but he was just placed in his status by TOAA, he is not a direct extension, and he is worfed all the time to establish "real threats".

Meanwhile the Heart of the Universe is directly a part of the One Above All's power that makes you virtually omnipotent while within the Heart's universe.

It's a matter of range, not AP.

Because he has. Also Law & Chaos did the same thing, and so did the Beyonders. And in neither case did the multiverse collapse. Because the Tribunal isn't the Multiverse per-say. He is the Embodiment of Law & Hierarchy across the multiverse.

So the argument that "If it was the whole Tribunal everything would go boom" is incoherent with Marvel itself.

Neither are you, I would say. We have tons of evidence and statements that the Heart is second to the One-Above-All. We have no reason to believe it is anything but the full Tribunal in either storyline, and it is outright confirmed to be him in the Handbook.

No, but I am kinda serious. You haven't debunked the Heart being High 1-B. You have just go "He only absorbed one universe and is almighty in one universe, so he can't be higher".

Again, it's range and area of influence.
Click to expand...
How the **** do I reply in the least confusing way possible? Is this it?

Supreme power on a universal scale, yes. That's what I'm saying. It's repeatedly stated, both in The End and future storylines, that Thanos became "God" of his universe. What I want is proof of him becoming some sort of supreme multiversal powerhouse.

I see this further context, but what I am asking is for you to show me why this makes him High Hyperversal. Nearly every storyline and every scan you posted relates to events within a single universe, and treats this as what the Heart is capable of.

So why would this be the full Tribunal but M-Bodies of Eternity and Infinity, then? Because Thanos is repeatedly shown dealing with the Eternity of his universe.

Are you talking about the end of The End or Infinity Revelatio?

The handbook does not confirm this is the "full Tribunal". It just says "the Living Tribunal". This is why I am asking for proof. However, I now must ask if what you're arguing for is "High Hyperversal HOTU Thanos with less than High Hyperversal range", as you seemed to imply with the Infinity Gauntlet comparison. Because this changes the argument completely, but is something I would say could be argued to have far more proof. (bolding due to importance about clarifying this, due to what I'm arguing being the display of High Hyperversal everything and not just potency)

I think that "fragment of this super powerful thing" is usually way too vague. However, I do think it works better should you choose to use it as evidence of being that scale due to being comparable to the Tribunal in nature (coming from/directly placed by TOAA).

"It's a matter of range, not AP".

Please clarify what I asked in bold, because if your argument is what I think it is, we probably have little to argue, now.

I've been more referring to Multi-Eternity with most of the "embodiment of the multiverse" stuff, as that's what he is.

"the Heart is second to TOAA" is an assumption I am questioning, as most of what you have shown is just "it's really powerful". If you want to argue it being "second" to TOAA, should it not be beyond things like Oblivion? Or are we excluding that?

I was going to say "And you have not debunked the issue of its influence", but again, if you are arguing about it only having a certain potency but not range, then we're not really arguing about the same thing any more, and thus I can just say "I mostly agree, I guess?".
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Azzy
1. YHVH is repeatedly stated to be the full-embodiment of everything since the beginning of the series but even after dying without being replaced, reality doesn't collapse. Because he embodies everything and is one with everything, but the relationship between him and reality is mutual and not completely direct. Also because the nature of how reality works under SMT means that YHVH can be the embodiment of everything until he's not, and then everything won't need an embodiment.

3. Nobody is talking about Eternity, though. Also, 616 Eternity has met the full Tribunal in 16th Dimensional space, giving precedence to the full Tribunal being involved in these things that relate to single universes.

Hell, She-Hulk has talked to the full Tribunal. It doesn't have to be a full-on multiversal collapse to warrant his attention.

Also, Tribunal died four times including Marvel: The End. Multiverse is fine.

Finally, what is your answer to the Heart of the Universe being infinitely superior to both the Ultimate Nullifier and the Infinity Gauntlet, which both have High 1-B feats (Not saying they definitely are High 1-B, but the feats are there).
Click to expand...
1. This is exactly what I meant about having a full explanation, then.

3+. If you clarify what I asked about range and potency in the other comment I posted, then I don't really have a counter as I agree. I am assuming you are saying a few things. He only absorbed full TLT and not multi-Eternity and that he has this level of potency but cannot effect things beyond this lower range being two of them. If this is the case, then things change.
 
Before I write my main post: Yes, I think that much like the Gauntlet, the HOTU has power on a higher than Low 2-C scale but with Low 2-C range.

I don't think he absorbed Multi-Eternity, just the full TLT.

I don't think Thanos would be able to warp the whole multiverse, or one-shot the Tribunal from infinite universes away.

I think that the HOTU gives Thanos High 1-B powers while within the Heart's specific universe. Not outside of it.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Before I write my main post: Yes, I think that much like the Gauntlet, the HOTU has power on a higher than Low 2-C scale but with Low 2-C range.
I don't think he absorbed Multi-Eternity, just the full TLT.

I don't think Thanos would be able to warp the whole multiverse, or one-shot the Tribunal from infinite universes away.

I think that the HOTU gives Thanos High 1-B powers while within the Heart's specific universe. Not outside of it.
Click to expand...
I feel like I've mostly been arguing with you about nothing then, because I pretty much agree with this, but was asking for proof as if you believed he was multiversal in scale and such, which is the main idea I have a problem with.
 
"Supreme power on a universal scale, yes. That's what I'm saying. It's repeatedly stated, both in The End and future storylines, that Thanos became "God" of his universe. What I want is proof of him becoming some sort of supreme multiversal powerhouse"

Him beating the Tribunal is proof. But seriously, I never said that HOTU makes Thanos the god of the multiverse. What I say is that it gives Thanos "Omnipotent Power" (I use quotations because I'm not being literal. You know what I mean, I mean power on a scale that virtually no one can challenge him, including these multiversals)

"However, I now must ask if what you're arguing for is "High Hyperversal HOTU Thanos with less than High Hyperversal range", as you seemed to imply with the Infinity Gauntlet comparison. Because this changes the argument completely, but is something I would say could be argued to have far more proof"

Yes. Look at his profile. He doesn't have High Hyperversal range. Explained above.

I argue that just like the Infinity Gauntlet can stomp multiversals, and even once made a High 1-B struggle, despite having explicit Universal+ range, the Heart could be the same as it effectively does the exact same thing as the Gauntlet, but more directly and with higher potency.

"However, I do think it works better should you choose to use it as evidence of being that scale due to being comparable to the Tribunal in nature (coming from/directly placed by TOAA)."

I think we can agree to that.

"I've been more referring to Multi-Eternity with most of the "embodiment of the multiverse" stuff, as that's what he is."

I never said it was Multi-Eternity, tho.

"If you want to argue it being "second" to TOAA, should it not be beyond things like Oblivion? Or are we excluding that?"

That's debatable. I think that "Second only to the TOAA literally" is a stretch. Even the Phoenix Force has better evidence of it as it is outright stated to be "Second only to the Creator", and in another story they say that if the villain were to obtain the Phoenix Force, he would take over all existence, and you can see the Tribunal, Eternity, Infinity, Death and Oblivion all bowing to him.

But I digress.
 
Whatever, I'll go Thanos due to Matt's reasoning just to shake stuff up.
 
Eganergo said:
Soooo.... Who's voting for who?

Emperor: 1 (KinkiestSins)

Purple guy: 1 (Aeyu)
Click to expand...
I already voted for Emps due to being = 4 Chaos Gods who vastly transcend baseline to the point of appearing undimensioned. That's about as high into H 1-B as it gets.
 
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